That's not fair, they can't ALL be that odd.
A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)
- Thread starter TheGodBen
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That's not fair, they can't ALL be that odd.
Technically every existing army in our world is a dictatorship, so you're probably right that in legal terms Sheridan's rule was a dictatorship too. There should not be a military officer commanding a neutral diplomatic space station in the first place. It should have a mayor, a governor or a some kind of a council similar to an Earth cabinet.
In reality it would be extremely difficult to run a resistance movement if every major decision is put to a vote.
The difference is that Sheridan ultimately had authority over civilian residents who were not part of the station's personnel and thus never formally agreed to subject themselves to his leadership... like in a military dictatorship. In a normal military, only soldiers (or civilian employees of the military) are bound to the orders of their superior officers.
Of course, civilian residents who didn't like Sheridan's policies were always free to leave the station (provided they could afford the travel, see the Lurkers on Downbelow). Normal dictatorships usually restrict the freedom to travel of their citizens and try to keep the people in by force. Then again, Sheridan never had to face the problem that large portions of the station's population wanted to flee B5. I guess they ultimately prefered to live in Sheridan-controlled territory rather to live in Clark-controlled territory.
But does this mean that B5's civilian residents actually approved of Sheridan or did they merely see them as the lesser of two evils? At least the final scene of "Severed Dreams" seemed to imply that the majority of the civilians actually approved of Sheridan' leadership, despite the fact no formal vote was ever held over this issue.
Brainwashed Garibaldi is an example of someone disagreeing with Sheridan and therefore leaving the station. Of course, he didn't really disagree with Sheridan's policies "voluntarily". Bester made him do it. But the point is, Sheridan let him go.
B5's political order prior to independence had at least some (albeit indirect) democratic legitimation. Babylon 5's military governor was appointed by the President of the Earth Alliance (see "Points of Departure"), and the human residents of B5 cast their vote in presidential elections (see "Midnight on the Firing Line"). There was no self-governance though. After B5's declaration of independence the station then became self-governing without actually changing its internal political structure.
1) Babylon 5 was not a resistance movement, but an independent state. Sheridan held a dual role as the leader of the "Army of Light", but this Army had no formal affiliation with B5 as a political body. And decisions regarding the Army of Light were in fact put to a vote.
Sheridan was overruled by the war council in "Walkabout".
2) In representative democracies with no national referanda, major decisions aren't put to a vote either. But the composition and hence direction of the government is usually put to a vote every four or five years. And legislatures don't approve every military action the executive takes either (usually, it only approves the military's budget and provides oversight over the executive's actions).
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I'm sort of curious about that too. It struck me while watching this episode that Londo doesn't have a role on the station any more, the Babylon Council doesn't seem to exist since the rebellion, and everyone on the station tends to hate him anyway. Other than the fact that he's in the main cast, what's he still doing there?
Interludes and Examinations (****)
Noooooooo! Kosh!
I never got the chance to tell him that I love him. I guess I never will.I was wondering why people told me that Born to the Purple was important, and this is apparently why. Adira, Londo's great lost love, is coming back to the station for some snoo-snoo, and Londo is really excited because his only remaining wife isn't a fan of snoo-snoo. Adira dies, possibly killed by Mordin, possibly killed by Refa, and this sends Londo over the edge. Again. It makes sense, if Londo's going to make a deal with the devil then losing the woman he loves is the way to do it. The problem is that I haven't seen Adira for over two years, she seemed like a romance-of-the-week, so bringing her back just to kill her seems a little forced. Sure, Londo could have been in love with her all that time, but if she's going to be such an important motivator for Londo then she should have had more presence on the series.
Meanwhile...
The Shadows are killing everyone. It feels a little weird, the Shadows finally reveal themselves to everyone and none of the races appear to be surprised by their presence, it's like they all knew about them. There's no sense of shock that there's a major invasion underway all across the galaxy, everyone seems rather calm about it, even the aliens that are under attack. Kosh dying was the best part of this plot, clearly. I didn't even think such a thing was possible, so seeing his empty encounter-suit helmet on Sheridan's desk was shocking and very sad.
By the way, was Kosh only impersonating Sheridan's father or is this a case of Space Jesus Sheridan?
Anyway, apparently this war isn't going to end in the next episode, which isn't all that shocking considering it only really began a week ago.
It was a non-agression pact that Earth and the Centauri signed, not any kind of alliance or "don't support secessionists" pact. The Centauri are free to do business with Babylon 5 if they want, and the Centauri likely feel that Babylon 5 is still a strategic point, since the Shadows do, and since the Shadows took the steps to get Londo back on their side, they could tell the Centauri government to keep Londo where they want him.
I think part of it is just that you see the Alien diplomats for the most part and not the every-day citizen. They're more trained to deal with emergencies (or play politics to not deal with them).
Yes, Vorlons can be killed; remember Kosh almost got killed by poison in the first episode.
It was Kosh.
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Like I said earlier "Interludes And Examinations" is my favourite B5 episode.
It has so many powerful and emotional moments:
-Londo's grieve for Adira.
-The death (and possibly the sacrifice) of Kosh.
-Franklin losing his temper in Medlab.
-Sheridan's confrontation with Kosh ("Up Yours!").
-The first space battle between Vorlons and Shadows
-Londo going back to the "dark side".("Let the rest of the galaxy burn")
-Kosh's ship leaving the station and heading towards Epsilon Eridani.
The best possible way to spend 42 minutes. Well, one of them, at least.
It has so many powerful and emotional moments:
-Londo's grieve for Adira.
-The death (and possibly the sacrifice) of Kosh.
-Franklin losing his temper in Medlab.
-Sheridan's confrontation with Kosh ("Up Yours!").
-The first space battle between Vorlons and Shadows
-Londo going back to the "dark side".("Let the rest of the galaxy burn")
-Kosh's ship leaving the station and heading towards Epsilon Eridani.
The best possible way to spend 42 minutes. Well, one of them, at least.
Babylon 5 is still a very important place, so all the players keep their ambassadors in place.
The Centauri and other powers have embassies on Earth, too. Always have.
The Centauri have had a diplomatic office on Earth for years, yes. I think most of the others might not. In particular, we know there was no diplomatic contact with the Minbari until that whole war thing.
Yes, I forget if the Council still exists or not at this point. Certainly, the show focuses much less on it after Season 2. But as you'll see later on, even while B5 is separate from Earth, there's still important diplomatic activity going on on the station. It's the one place where every race has an ambassador. It makes sense for the Centauri to keep a representative there.
Btw, when I introduced the show to a friend of mine via my VHS collection about 10 years ago, Kosh's death was the one piece of info that he was accidentally spoiled on in advance.....I mean other than the initial premise of the show. He didn't know any other spoilers whatsoever.
Ackbar was supreme commander of the Alliance military. Mon Mothma, a former senator, was the chief of state/ head of government.
It was more likely Morden. He was the only one who greeted the shuttle bringing Adira and he pulled a classic consolating sociopath murderer act at the end when he visited Londo and offered his services again with fake symphaty
Remember "Severed Dreams" when wounded Minbari Ranger brought in....He said Shadows made members of League to fight with one another and force them to ally with Shadows. League of Non-Alligned Worlds probably knew existence of Shadows for some time. It is logical that there are probably other Shadow emmisaries and they had been in contact with other alien goverments
It was Kosh...His appearence when he reveals himself to those in sleep/comatose/trance etc.....Remember he appeared as G'Kar's father as well in "Dust to Dust"
When I watched this episode first time I throught "Damn goodbye Kosh...We will miss you , your cryptic nonsensical quotes and your light filled appearence..."
By the way Dr. Franklin bows to the undeniable truth.....
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Also as the Brakiri ambassador said, they'd been dealing with them already. Their only shock would come from the Shadows turning on them suddenly and that everyone else knows who they are and have had dealings with them too. Plus of course one of their ships was on ISN.
Exactly, the Vorlons and the Shadows alike, while very old and powerful are still physical beings. In this case, as you saw, Kosh was outnumbered, but as you can see from the state of the room and the encounter suit, he went down fighting. I think JMS once described it as akin to a lion being taken down and overwhelmed by a pack of hyenas.
Yes, it's something he's done before. Remember G'Kar's vision in 'Dust to Dust'. You'll also hear of something similar later on in season 4.
It was just Kosh using a metaphor by assuming his dad's image. The real David Sheridan is perfectly human.
Fun With Time Travel!, Part 1 (****)
Sinclair comes back and he has a proposition for Sheridan that he can't possibly refuse: The biggest heist of all time. He has an ingenious plan to steal a 5-mile space station and bring it 1,000 years into the past to use it in a war that they've already won, except they wont win if they don't steal the station which they already stole, and if they don't steal the station then Babylon 5 will be destroyed by an army that's already dead.
Or something.
To be honest, season 5 of Lost left me burned out on time travel, even time travel like this which makes almost perfect sense even though it doesn't. But I can't deny that this was a good episode with many exciting moments, and many other moments which were truly shocking. For example, learning that Babylon 4 was brought to the past and not the future, which is what I was expecting. It's a fun episode which doesn't contain a good gut-punch, but that's because it's a two-parter. I had planned to watch only the one episode last night, but the way the first part ended so abruptly left me wanting more, so I watched the next episode.
Fun With Time Travel!, Part 2 (****½)
What the hell just happened here?
Future Londo is being controlled by some thing, someone in a blue space-suit is jumping around in time, Sinclair is Valen...
Hang on, Sinclair is Valen?!! What the hell?! Was he always going to be Valen, or did they throw that in because Michael O'Hare left the show? Did Delenn always know this, or did she just learn from the letter? I wonder will I be seeing any of Sinclair's exploits in the past, or is his story over now?
A very good episode all round, it's neat how they took scenes from Babylon Squared and let them play out in this episode. (Although Wikipedia has pointed out a few inconsistencies between the two episodes, but I don't care.) The best part of the episode, as you'd expect, is the story of future Londo and how we see him and G'Kar dying with their hands around one another's throats, just as Londo described back in the first episode. Poor Londo, I wonder what it is that's controlling him. And is this the way the show will really end, or has seeing the future allowed Sheridan the opportunity to change it? I guess I'll eventually find out.
Commander Greyshirt: 9
Captain Greyshirt: 15
Scott Bakula: 46
Sinclair comes back and he has a proposition for Sheridan that he can't possibly refuse: The biggest heist of all time. He has an ingenious plan to steal a 5-mile space station and bring it 1,000 years into the past to use it in a war that they've already won, except they wont win if they don't steal the station which they already stole, and if they don't steal the station then Babylon 5 will be destroyed by an army that's already dead.
Or something.
To be honest, season 5 of Lost left me burned out on time travel, even time travel like this which makes almost perfect sense even though it doesn't. But I can't deny that this was a good episode with many exciting moments, and many other moments which were truly shocking. For example, learning that Babylon 4 was brought to the past and not the future, which is what I was expecting. It's a fun episode which doesn't contain a good gut-punch, but that's because it's a two-parter. I had planned to watch only the one episode last night, but the way the first part ended so abruptly left me wanting more, so I watched the next episode.
Fun With Time Travel!, Part 2 (****½)
What the hell just happened here?
Future Londo is being controlled by some thing, someone in a blue space-suit is jumping around in time, Sinclair is Valen...Hang on, Sinclair is Valen?!! What the hell?! Was he always going to be Valen, or did they throw that in because Michael O'Hare left the show? Did Delenn always know this, or did she just learn from the letter? I wonder will I be seeing any of Sinclair's exploits in the past, or is his story over now?
A very good episode all round, it's neat how they took scenes from Babylon Squared and let them play out in this episode. (Although Wikipedia has pointed out a few inconsistencies between the two episodes, but I don't care.) The best part of the episode, as you'd expect, is the story of future Londo and how we see him and G'Kar dying with their hands around one another's throats, just as Londo described back in the first episode. Poor Londo, I wonder what it is that's controlling him. And is this the way the show will really end, or has seeing the future allowed Sheridan the opportunity to change it? I guess I'll eventually find out.
Commander Greyshirt: 9
Captain Greyshirt: 15
Scott Bakula: 46
Ah, War Without End! The pin that ties the entire series together. A great two-parter. 
And Sinclair was always going to be Valen, I believe, from the start (hence the hints in early episodes like "Soul Hunter").
As for what the Minbari know of the subject, individually and as a race, there's more to come on this, particularly next season. And, of course, knowing Sinclair carried the soul of Valen does not mean knowledge of his actually being the original Valen- as you know, Minbari are big on reincarnation as a concept. So there's a whole continuum, degrees of awareness as to the truth.
And Sinclair was always going to be Valen, I believe, from the start (hence the hints in early episodes like "Soul Hunter").
As for what the Minbari know of the subject, individually and as a race, there's more to come on this, particularly next season. And, of course, knowing Sinclair carried the soul of Valen does not mean knowledge of his actually being the original Valen- as you know, Minbari are big on reincarnation as a concept. So there's a whole continuum, degrees of awareness as to the truth.
Ok...always was a little strong. My point being is that Babylon 5 isn't the only place in the human sphere of influence the alien governments have sent reps.
Sinclair was always going to be Valen. The Minbari (and Delenn) discovered it back during the Battle of the Line-- they analyzed his soul and discovered it was Valen's. Which they took to mean Minbari souls were being reborn in human beings. That's why they called off the war. And that's partly why they insisted on Sinclair as commander of B5.
I don't think I'm spoiling anything here, am I?
I don't think I'm spoiling anything here, am I?
Oh, and I'm pretty sure that the original idea was for Sinclair to come back in time from that future we saw. He looked older because that was his actual age. When the show switched over to Sheridan, they had to come up with a different explanation for Sinclair looking so old. I don't know this for sure, but I bet it's true.
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Delenn didn't know the truth about Valen prior to recieving the letter.
It was a big shock to everyone (characters and viewers).
You have already seen many of them because Sinclair did not change the past by going back in time and becoming Valen, but he actually created the existing timeline.
Sinclair might have suspected the truth about Valen during his stay on Minbar, but the letter from the past was a shock to him as well.
Which brings us to the question who's the mastermind of this operation if nobody knew for certain what was going to happen? Who coordinated everything from the time rift created by the Great Machine to the Triluminari devices brought to the White Star by Zathras?
The series doesn't give us a straight answer to that but there's only one logical conclusion - the good old Vorlons.
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The Minbari discovered only that Sinclair carried Valen's soul (DNA), but they had no idea that everything was upside down - Valen was actually carrying some of Sinclair's DNA, because he was a human/Minbari hybrid same as Delenn.
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A soul is not DNA in Babylon 5. DNA is just chemistry. They make it clear it's something deeper, something else.
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