A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

[sidious618]

I can't say I see your point, Kegg. Sheridan and Sinclair are massively different.

 

[Jan]

Surely you jest. Must I rather tendentiously evoke the little J.S. thing again? JMS is pretty consistent in B5 with replacing characters with reworked versions of the same character, with varying degrees of success, and Sinclair to Sheridan is just one of the most prominent examples.

That's not the same thing as saying Sheridan is the same character as Sinclair. As observed, he's been reworked. He has less of Sinclair's intellectual bent, but even that in part is necessary to explain the logic of him being selected for the job given the great importance the Minbari placed on Sinclair's selection in the first season (the implication being there were dozens of top brass guys eager to get the post - so why are they all passed over again? Well, uh, hero of the war, snub it to the Minbari!)

Even the fact he was Santiago's second pick wants to connect him to the late president in some way, who of course was responsible for appointing Sinclair.

Maybe we've got an issue of semantics here. Given that the show was pre-planned, when a character dropped out, another character (or characters) had to be given certain parts of the story to carry out. A perfect example is with Lyta, who

Spoiler: later on in the show

who was supposed to be enhanced by the Vorlons but she dropped out so Talia had to gain super-teep powers from Ironheart. Separately, later on, when Claudia dropped out, Lyta picked up the romance thread with Byron.

That doesn't mean the the character is simply 'reworked', it's a new character in his/her own right with plot threads laid over from previous characters.

Jan

 

[Neroon]

Martel and Gideon were from different shows, even if in the same universe. I can understand the criticism of naming the two leads with identical initials. It does seem a little convenient, and truth be told... I am betting that has a connection to the original intent and design of the series.

However, in the end it seems a pretty thin thing onto which a criticism is hung. The two characters - even if Sheridan is a replacement for Sinclair - developed into markedly different people.

 

[RoJoHen]

To make a ridiculously simplistic argument, when I worked at TGI Fridays we went through many different managers. Three of them were all named Jeff. They all had the same job, but they were all very different people.

 

[Kegg]

^
When it comes to implausible excuses, real life basically gets off the hook because nobody's really criticizing the writing.

Maybe we've got an issue of semantics here. Given that the show was pre-planned, when a character dropped out, another character (or characters) had to be given certain parts of the story to carry out.

Exactly, only it's a little more than that. I'll return to the coffee again: What purpose exactly did it serve for Ivanova to appropriate Takashima's character quirk of bending the regs to have real coffee on the station? Clearly, in terms of plots and arcs, absolutely nothing. It does however make sense when it's understood Ivanova is a replacement for Takashima, and not simply in the role the character occupied. There are things about the old characters JMS still wants to do, so he keeps those things in the new characters, and it's not all arc related. Hence, yeah, they are basically reworked versions of their predecessors.

However, in the end it seems a pretty thin thing onto which a criticism is hung.

Absolutely. It's just a nice talking point. I gave a dozen other examples further upthread, in my "spoiler territory" spoiler marker.

 

[stonester1]

To Rojohen

But obviously, it was a hack writer writing that portion of your life.

Probably ripping off another life at another restaraunt, like Appleby's, or something.

 

[RoJoHen]

But obviously, it was a hack writer writing that portion of your life.

That would actually explain a lot.

I'm pretty sure it must have been a soap opera writer.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

I wouldn't go so far to say that Sinclair/Garibaldi and Sheridan/Ivanova had the same kind of relationship either. Sinclair and Garibaldi were build up as those close buddies,while Sheridan and Ivanova were just people who had previously served together a couple of years ago (and therefore had a much more professional relationship than Sinclair/Garibaldi).

Spoiler: a character who will be introduced soon

Actually, I think the relationship we are going to see between Garibaldi and Zack emulates the earlier Sinclair/Garibaldi friendship fairly well.

 

[chrisspringob]

Revelations (***½)

After watching this episode it really reinforces how Points of Departure put everything on hold in order to introduce Sheridan because all four plots from Chrysalis (G'Kar searching for something, Delenn in her cocoon, Garibaldi in a coma and the assassination of the Earth President) come into play here. All these plots are interesting on some level but none of them are all that shocking, at least not for me. G'Kar coming to the realisation that there's another race, an evil one that threatens them all, is important but it's not a huge revelation for me because I've known about the Shadows for years. I don't know what they are or why they're returning, but this episode didn't delve into any of that.

Again, this is an inherent problem in these threads by B5 newbies on this board. People on TrekBBS tend to keep up w/ sci-fi news enough that they tend to be partially spoiled on the plot of B5 even before they've seen a single episode.

One thing I'll mention though: At this point in the series, it may seem like the focus is on the mysteries. But as you get further into Season 2, it's not so much about things happening that are meant to be surprising. On the contrary, it's more like the events unfold in a natural way, as a logical consequence of what's happened before, in a way that you could have predicted in advance.

But that's a style that I find really interesting. In most arc-heavy TV shows I've seen, you can see the heavy hand of the writer moving pieces around to suit his whims of the moment. In B5 (at least, in much of it), it feels more like the plot is a force of nature, where things advance forward in a predictable, but logical way, like you're watching a slow motion train wreck, where you can see the train coming down the tracks well in advance, but there's nothing you can do to stop it.

 

[Skywalker]

You know, this thread is definitely rekindling my interest in Babylon 5. I watched it on occasion back during the late '90s when it was just ending its run, and I thought it was a pretty cool sci-fi universe, but I never got into the show enough to make a habit of watching it whenever I saw it on TV.

Now the entire series can be had on DVD at Walmart for $100 ($20 per season), and I'm seriously considering buying them all before they're gone. I highly doubt the series will ever get a proper Blu-ray treatment, so DVD is probably my best bet for the near future. Are the DVDs widescreen? I seem to recall B5 being filmed for that aspect ratio, but I don't know if the DVDs were mastered that way. What's the picture quality like?

 

[Lindley]

The DVDs are widescreen, but since the FX shots were only available in 4:3, they've been cropped. Therefore, the FX shots don't look even as good as they did originally (and this is 90s CGI to start with). Also, any live action scene with a CGI overlay had to get the same treatment.

All in all, it's not great picture quality, but it's good enough to tell the story.

 

[Blamo]

Like Skywalker, my interest has been rekindled thanks to this thread, so I started rewatching from Babylon Squared. I'm now upto the third to last episode of season two. Really wish I could forget the entire show so I could experience it fresh again.

^

Exactly, only it's a little more than that. I'll return to the coffee again: What purpose exactly did it serve for Ivanova to appropriate Takashima's character quirk of bending the regs to have real coffee on the station?

None at all, just as it didn't serve the story in any way what so ever. Most likely JMS simply forgot, afterall we never hear of it again.

Clearly, in terms of plots and arcs, absolutely nothing. It does however make sense when it's understood Ivanova is a replacement for Takashima, and not simply in the role the character occupied.

Except wasn't Takashima going to be the one in cahoots with Clarke (or was it homeguard)? Baring the coffee and being women, the two characters are nothing alike.

Characters that are brought in to replace outgoing ones, are usually only similar to their predecessors in that they fulfil a similar job. Otherwise their story arcs and personalities are really very much different.

As for Sinclair-Sheridan comparisons
Sinclair is the stoic well-read diplomat, appointed by the Minbari.
Sheridan is the passionate tactician, appointed by EarthGov.
The two characters are really very different.

 

[Lindley]

Be careful. Remember that saying what a character isn't can also constitute a spoiler in some cases.

 

[Skywalker]

The DVDs are widescreen, but since the FX shots were only available in 4:3, they've been cropped. Therefore, the FX shots don't look even as good as they did originally (and this is 90s CGI to start with). Also, any live action scene with a CGI overlay had to get the same treatment.

All in all, it's not great picture quality, but it's good enough to tell the story.

Yeah, I remembered something about that, too, but I wasn't exactly sure what the deal was. Still, it's probably as good as we're going to get for a long time, unfortunately.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I was very upset that the actor who played Na'Toth changed. TERRIBLE replacement. Na'Toth the original had quite a presence about her and I really enjoyed her scenes. Na'Toth the 2nd seems to have very little presence and comes across as actually.. demur. Terrible.

I hope I warm to Sheridan. At this point he is boring but not odious. Sinclair I enjoyed, as someone said above he was "dour". I don't think he was a great character but he grew on me.

Otherwise I am very excited about the way the plot is moving forward!

 

[Canadave]

Yeah, I forget why the changeover in actors for Na'Toth happened (though I'm sure someone will be along shortly to enlighten us ), but you're right, it effectively neutered the character. Which is too bad, really—it would have been nice to have a third strong "ambassador's assistant" character to go along with Lennier and Vir.

 

[Reverend]

For an actress, having you face covered by a full latex mask can be a real problem. Mary Woronov who played Ko'Dath quit because she just couldn't deal with it. Fair enough. Caitlin Brown as I recall didn't mind it in and of itself, though it began to have an affect on her ability to get other work because all her demo tapes had a weird lizard woman in it and those every open minded casting directors had trouble seeing lizards as leading ladies, or even in supporting roles. Plus I'm fairly certain the glue and whatnot didn't do her complexion any favours which just compounds matters.
As for Mary Kay Adams (Na'Toth mk2) I gather that while she gave a good audition, she was either unable or unwilling to sustain that.

 

[D Man]

I've never really thought Na'Toth as a character (regardless of who was playing her) ever went anywhere interesting. The character seemed superfluous since G'Kar was such a strong "solitary" sort of figure, at least IMO. It doesn't help that she shows up so infrequently.

 

[Reverend]

Technically no, it wasn't empty because he was there.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

To be honest, John Sheridan appeared to me as a pretty shallow character in the beginning. As a result, I actually missed Sinclair for the first half of Season 2 or so. It wasn't until "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum" that Sheridan became interesting and started to develop something of a personality.