A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

[Kegg]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

Considering the same company did DS9's CGI (seasons 5-7) as did B5's CGI (season 1-3), at least part of the "better SFX" argument is simply down to additional experience.

Absolutely not.

The issue isn't why DS9 has better SFX. The issue is whether or not DS9 has better SFX. I had just conceded even if DS9's actual story was directly indebted to B5 that didn't matter because I consider DS9 is an improvement, so I have no idea why this argument would be deployed for the SFX.

I dunno. Infection reminds me of a bad episode of The Outer Limits. There's a good idea somewhere in there but the execution is hopelessly clunky.

That sounds fair, but frankly, the commander convincing a robotic being to off itself that had gone wrong due to a totalitarian government system sounds like something right out of the original Star Trek with all of Kirk's arguments to destroy computers. Hell, that he has the mind of a former alien makes him one step away from Landru plus racism.

Frankly, that's a very anachronistic sort of story. I don't think anyone today believes if we deploy logic arguments it'll make computers explode. I do like the general idea of racial theories accidentally destroying a species, even if it doesn't make a whole deal of sense.

 

[Ryan]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

The only influence the DS9 writers have ever conceded is that the Cardassians were to have a secret security service called the Grey Order; until Robert Hewitt Wolfe saw that on Babylon 5 the Minbari had something called the Grey Council, so he changed the name to the Obsidian Order.

Like I said, why would they ever admit to being influenced by their ostensible competition?

Whether it was B5 kicking in the door and letting Trek writers do the stories they'd wanted to do, company execs pushing for more direct competition with the series, or simple story inspiration the effects are clearly there on the screen. DS9 starts as Trek and ends as Babylon 5.

I suppose if Babylon 5 had predated Deep Space Nine rather than directly competed with it (some) DS9 fans might not be so insecure about the whole thing. But that's their problem, not mine. I've got no issue greatly enjoying a series like Stargate: Universe and acknowledging it owes a big debt to Battlestar Galactica (among others).

(and DS9 was the better for it).

And better in general, to be perfectly candid.

I felt the more dark and gritty story telling was never fully at home in the TNG-era Trek universe but to each their own. I don't see it as a contest between the two. You can like one, both, or neither.

 

[Kegg]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

Like I said, why would they ever admit to being influenced by their ostensible competition?

Quite. All I'm saying is it's inflamed passions, not that it's untrue (or true, I've never greatly cared.)

I don't see it as a contest between the two. You can like one, both, or neither.

Fair enough. But I do like saying sweeping statements like Farscape is better than B5 and so on. I'm a trifle angrily and annoyingly opinionated like that.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

I dunno. Infection reminds me of a bad episode of The Outer Limits. There's a good idea somewhere in there but the execution is hopelessly clunky.

To be honest, I don't even think there was a good idea in there, it's a combination of a 50s b-movie mixed in with a tired warning against the concept of racial purity with a little Kirk Outsmarts The Computer mixed in. I know that some say all stories have already been told, but picking three of the most clichéd and throwing them together wasn't the smartest idea I've ever heard.

Frankly, that's a very anachronistic sort of story. I don't think anyone today believes if we deploy logic arguments it'll make computers explode.

Only because the computer scientists of the 1960s were big Trek nerds and after watching The Return of the Archons they invented the concept of exception handling. It's yet another example of how Trek changed the world, or it would be were it not for the fact that I just made it up.


I haven't given up on B5, it's just that I'm using as much free time as I can spare to complete Mass Effect 2, because if I don't complete the game I wont be able to focus on my college work. Mass Effect seems a lot like B5 what with political intrigue, aliens councils and shadowy organisations, but I've made Commander Sheppard into a black guy with a shaved head and a goatee, and I gave him the name Benadict. See, Babylon 5 and Deep Space Nine can live in peace.

 

[JoeD80]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

[Infection has] ... a little Kirk Outsmarts The Computer mixed in.

This is the image I had in my head when I first watched "Infection," but it's part of the reason I like that episode.

I know that some say all stories have already been told, but picking three of the most clichéd and throwing them together wasn't the smartest idea I've ever heard.

FWIW, Joe didn't like this particular episode in the end.

 

[stonester1]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

I haven't given up on B5, it's just that I'm using as much free time as I can spare to complete Mass Effect 2, because if I don't complete the game I wont be able to focus on my college work. Mass Effect seems a lot like B5 what with political intrigue, aliens councils and shadowy organisations, but I've made Commander Sheppard into a black guy with a shaved head and a goatee, and I gave him the name Benadict. See, Babylon 5 and Deep Space Nine can live in peace.

Of course they can, I've always loved both shows...never gotten the angst between some of the fans.

 

[tomalak301]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

I haven't given up on B5, it's just that I'm using as much free time as I can spare to complete Mass Effect 2, because if I don't complete the game I wont be able to focus on my college work. Mass Effect seems a lot like B5 what with political intrigue, aliens councils and shadowy organisations, but I've made Commander Sheppard into a black guy with a shaved head and a goatee, and I gave him the name Benadict. See, Babylon 5 and Deep Space Nine can live in peace.

Of course they can, I've always loved both shows...never gotten the angst between some of the fans.

Same here. I have DS9 on DVD, and Babylon 5 on DVD. I've been in more of a B5 mode than DS9 purely because I haven't seen B5 enough to really get out of that "honeymoon period" yet but I still love both shows.

 

[Angel4576]

The racial purity slant comes almost directly out of Doctor Who's 'Genesis of the Daleks'. I rewatched the latter just last week and I found it rather amusing.

A shame that David McCallum was so wasted.

DS9/B5 - Love them both. They both had edges over the other in certain areas, but essentially two great shows.

 

[Canadave]

The racial purity slant comes almost directly out of Doctor Who's 'Genesis of the Daleks'. I rewatched the latter just last week and I found it rather amusing.

A shame that David McCallum was so wasted.

DS9/B5 - Love them both. They both had edges over the other in certain areas, but essentially two great shows.

Indeed. I don't care who ripped-off or influenced who. They're both great shows, and I love 'em both for what they are.

 

[cylkoth]

^^ Count me in the loved them both faction too. No one disliked St Elsewhere or Chicago Hope just because they were set in hospitals just like ER. Different styles, different drives and aspirations each had, and more than enough room for both.

This thread made me want to dive in and re-watch the series, though, I doubt I'll be able to stick with it all the way-not unless I can sacrifice a few hours of current shows in my already overcrowded watch list. Caught eps 1 & 2 via Hulu...I've missed the sharp character one liners-one of the show's assets.

One laughable thing I was reminded of in Soul Hunter-how in blazes did he get his soul catching machine from the docking bay to wherever he was hiding? That thing was huge...And surely the docking bay had cameras..his ship would have guards posted too, since it's the first place you'd think he'd run to. Steven continued mocking the process was strange-since Delenn kept the other souls the Hubter was keeping, shouldn't Sinclair have impounded the machine for study? Even if he turned it over to the 2nd hunter, resident Earth Force scientists along with Steven should have expressed some interest in examining it before it getting whisked away...

And since it's the future, shouldn't their monitors be Hi Def... Garibaldi needs HD for his 2nd favorite thing in the world. Darn EF and it's extreme budget cuts!

 

[stonester1]

In parts...just like that Johnny Cash song, "I took one piece at a time...and it didn't cost me a dime..."

 

[Jan]

^^ I'm sure n'grath's people helped get the soul-capture machine to the proper place. As well as the medical equipment needed. Handy being, that n'grath.

Jan

 

[Lindley]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

Considering the same company did DS9's CGI (seasons 5-7) as did B5's CGI (season 1-3), at least part of the "better SFX" argument is simply down to additional experience.

Absolutely not.

The issue isn't why DS9 has better SFX. The issue is whether or not DS9 has better SFX. I had just conceded even if DS9's actual story was directly indebted to B5 that didn't matter because I consider DS9 is an improvement, so I have no idea why this argument would be deployed for the SFX.

My hypothesis is simply that DS9's effects would not have been as good as they were---or at least, they would not have been able to move away from model work when they did---if B5 had not existed.

You have to break the ground before you can polish the product. Technology doesn't appear out of nowhere. And yes, there were other TV shows using CGI to a limited extent at the same time, but none which pushed it forward so aggressively as B5. (Movies are in a different category, IMO.)

As for which ultimately had better SFX, well, I doubt anyone would seriously argue that DS9's didn't look more "real". But there is an argument to be made that B5's took a more dynamic, visually interesting style most of the time. DS9 exploited the capabilities of CGI well, but it was still limited to creating similar types of shots to what had been possible with model work to maintain visual consistency; B5 had no such limitation.

From day 2, "Soul Hunter", B5 was pushing the capabilities. Even though the graphics really didn't look all that great, the sequence where Sinclair grapples the Soul Hunter ship was done specifically in a manner which would have been impossible using models.

 

[Bisz]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

But I do like saying sweeping statements like Farscape is better than B5 and so on. I'm a trifle angrily and annoyingly opinionated like that.

Thats not being opinionated, thats being wrong.
Farscape doesn't hold a candle, or a match for that matter, to B5.

 

[Skywalker]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

But I do like saying sweeping statements like Farscape is better than B5 and so on. I'm a trifle angrily and annoyingly opinionated like that.

Thats not being opinionated, thats being wrong.
Farscape doesn't hold a candle, or a match for that matter, to B5.

Aw, that's cute.

 

[Neroon]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

But I do like saying sweeping statements like Farscape is better than B5 and so on. I'm a trifle angrily and annoyingly opinionated like that.

Thats not being opinionated, thats being wrong.
Farscape doesn't hold a candle, or a match for that matter, to B5.

Aw, that's cute.

Then it's best to avoid such kinds of statements if it looks like they could adversely affect forum health.

 

[Skywalker]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

Thats not being opinionated, thats being wrong.
Farscape doesn't hold a candle, or a match for that matter, to B5.

Aw, that's cute.

Then it's best to avoid such kinds of statements if it looks like they could adversely affect forum health.

Sorry, didn't mean to make that seem like baiting or anything. I generally prefer to avoid arguments.

 

[Neroon]

Well, it's for everyone really, but I do understand the attractive addiction the subject holds.

 

[Kegg]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

As for which ultimately had better SFX, well, I doubt anyone would seriously argue that DS9's didn't look more "real". But there is an argument to be made that B5's took a more dynamic, visually interesting style most of the time.

This part of your post raises an interesting point. I can understand someone considering B5's CGI more aesthetically apealing in theory - in theory, becuase I really don't think of it much even in that respect. At most I think the show boasted some very nice designs - the station, the Starfuries, the Minbari cruiser, chiefly.

DS9 exploited the capabilities of CGI well, but it was still limited to creating similar types of shots to what had been possible with model work to maintain visual consistency; B5 had no such limitation.

This proved to be a good call, though. DS9 didn't really start using CGI en masse until it had got to the point CGI could reliably replicate the modelwork they had been doing; so while it's less flexible it's still far more believable. And design-wise the show was also, IMHO, excellent - it benefited a great deal from the numerous starship designs from TNG and the movies, but the original design of the Cardassian space station was rather nicely done.

But I do like saying sweeping statements like Farscape is better than B5 and so on. I'm a trifle angrily and annoyingly opinionated like that.

Thats not being opinionated, thats being wrong.

I think you should do a spot check on your facts, sir, you will find them to be in error.

 

[Admiral James Kirk]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

I've found the backbiting in this thread quite entertaining. So much so that I've ordered a copy of B5: The Gathering/In the Beginning as well as B5: S1. It would be nice to have an opinion of my own on B5.