A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

[Lindley]

I just looked up Yellow Sector because I didn't remember anything about it, and while I was doing so, I started scratching my head a bit.....

Green sector contains the Ambassadorial quarters and is thus restricted to authorized personnel. Yet green sector also contains the garden. Which explains why the garden is always so empty, despite the crowded squalor of Brown sector just a few levels away.

I mean, I know you've got to keep your air and food supply protected, but would it have killed them to make portions of the garden more available to the public?

 

[CorporalClegg]

One of the things about TKO that's regularly overlooked is that the A plot is about prejudice. Walker Smith, a black human is prejudiced against the 'snakeheads' and those same 'snakeheads' are prejudiced against the humans.

Jan

Actually, I think it's just the opposite. The "message" is so obvious and heavy-handed that people would rather not be bothered. And since the episode itself is such a doozy, the little substance there was seems completely vacant. So people just roll their eyes and move on.

 

[David cgc]

Spoiler: humans

There are two possible reasons not to do something: Because you think it would be fruitless, or because there is no need. I'm betting on the latter, although *if* the Shadows had some inkling about Sinclair's "identity", that might be related as well.

Spoiler: humans

Defiantly the latter. Humans were the first race they encountered when they awoke. It makes sense that was the first place they looked for allies.

On top of that if I recall, the Psi Corps & Technomage novel have Department Sigma (the shadowy little corner of Psi Corps that was running Bureau 13) making an alliance with the Shadows pretty early on. Plus remember that Justin didn't arrive on Z'ha'dum with the Icarus, he came later.

Spoiler: Actually...

My understanding was that Morden was on his way to see Sinclair when Kosh ran into him. "Leave this place. They are not for you." He was telling the Shadows that the Vorlons had dibs on the humans (or, at the very least, on these humans).

I just looked up Yellow Sector because I didn't remember anything about it, and while I was doing so, I started scratching my head a bit.....

Green sector contains the Ambassadorial quarters and is thus restricted to authorized personnel. Yet green sector also contains the garden. Which explains why the garden is always so empty, despite the crowded squalor of Brown sector just a few levels away.

I mean, I know you've got to keep your air and food supply protected, but would it have killed them to make portions of the garden more available to the public?

There are a few different sector maps that have been put up. The more logical ones, have Red Sector expand into the garden. We've seen non-Ambassadors in the Zen Garden and at Fresh Air and such enough that the one that has the entire open-air section of the station being Green Sector doesn't make any sense.

 

[Reverend]

Spoiler: humans

There are two possible reasons not to do something: Because you think it would be fruitless, or because there is no need. I'm betting on the latter, although *if* the Shadows had some inkling about Sinclair's "identity", that might be related as well.

Spoiler: humans

Defiantly the latter. Humans were the first race they encountered when they awoke. It makes sense that was the first place they looked for allies.

On top of that if I recall, the Psi Corps & Technomage novel have Department Sigma (the shadowy little corner of Psi Corps that was running Bureau 13) making an alliance with the Shadows pretty early on. Plus remember that Justin didn't arrive on Z'ha'dum with the Icarus, he came later.

Spoiler: Actually...

My understanding was that Morden was on his way to see Sinclair when Kosh ran into him. "Leave this place. They are not for you." He was telling the Shadows that the Vorlons had dibs on the humans (or, at the very least, on these humans).

That hadn't occurred to me, but is certainly a distinct possibility.

I just looked up Yellow Sector because I didn't remember anything about it, and while I was doing so, I started scratching my head a bit.....

Green sector contains the Ambassadorial quarters and is thus restricted to authorized personnel. Yet green sector also contains the garden. Which explains why the garden is always so empty, despite the crowded squalor of Brown sector just a few levels away.

I mean, I know you've got to keep your air and food supply protected, but would it have killed them to make portions of the garden more available to the public?

There are a few different sector maps that have been put up. The more logical ones, have Red Sector expand into the garden. We've seen non-Ambassadors in the Zen Garden and at Fresh Air and such enough that the one that has the entire open-air section of the station being Green Sector doesn't make any sense.

It just so happens I've been cataloguing the various versions of the sector layout from official sources.



I think that the security manual version, like a lot of info in that book was taken from pre-Gathering info, so there's no Brown sector and appears to be the source of the idea that green sector takes up the entire central core.

It appears they later re-considered the layout a bit to make portions of Red Sector inside the core (as seen with Fresh Air & Earhart's.)

As for "The Garden", I think there's some confusion on that front. "The Garden" IS the public areas of the surface levels and includes the stone garden, the maze, the recreation grounds and other such areas and appears to take up about a mile or two square and doesn't include the open topped concourses. So green sector isn't necessarily synonymous with the public gardens, hydroponics, aqua farms, and other "green" areas.

Green sector also includes the Alien Sector which supports the alternate atmospheres, variable rotational gravity sections as well as just the ambassadorial wings and by all accounts goes all the way out to the outer hull.

There's a similar misconception with downbelow being synonymous with Brown Sector. The worst parts out Downbelow are certainly in Brown Sector, but there are downbelow areas all over the station from the cargo areas to red sector, the alien sector and even in the industrial Grey Sector. Basically, downbelow is just any undeveloped area where lurkers have moved in, usually around industrial equipment, near the outer hull.

As for Yellow sector, most sources has that as the zero-g areas and the fusion reactor, though the security manual has mention of variable-g labs, so portions must be on the carousel. For whatever reason the Mutai is on one of these relatively small areas. Probably because it was a cheaper area to rent.

What I can't figure out is where the hell the station commander's office complex is. The hall marks are blue but it had a window with a view of the core, though no map has any part of blue sector encroaching into the core.

 

[Brian]

One of the things about TKO that's regularly overlooked is that the A plot is about prejudice. Walker Smith, a black human is prejudiced against the 'snakeheads' and those same 'snakeheads' are prejudiced against the humans.

Jan

Actually, I think it's just the opposite. The "message" is so obvious and heavy-handed that people would rather not be bothered. And since the episode itself is such a doozy, the little substance there was seems completely vacant. So people just roll their eyes and move on.

QFT.

 

[TheGodBen]

Grail (½)

Scott Bakula: I am searching for... The Holy Grail!
Garibaldi:

Never before have I so completely identified with a character on a television show.

The thing about this episode is that it doesn't centre around the lead actors, it mainly focuses on Gajic (Scott Bakula), Jinxo, Deuce and Ombuds Wellington (Scott Bakula), none of which are all that interesting, except for Ombuds Wellington. I mean, who would have thought that somebody from Limerick would get this far?

The episode starts out stupid when a tentacle eats a woman's brain, or something, but the revelation that this has something to do with Kosh was intriguing and convinced me to pay attention. Then the episode turns stupid again with the introduction of Gajic and his revelation that he's searching for the Holy Grail, and the episode also performs a neat piece of character assassination on Delenn and Lennier by having them revere a crazy person. The episode turns even more stupid as we learn that Jinxo is cursed and that if he leaves Babylon 5 it will go BOOM, something I found so infuriatingly idiotic that I declared I would stop watching this series entirely if that came to pass. (Of course, if the station went BOOM there would be no more show anyway.)

Anyway, Jinxo gets in trouble after pick-pocketing Gajic and Ombuds Wellington decides to banish him from the station, but Gajic has a video of the Ombuds with his illegitimate love-child and manages to get Jinxo released into his custody. They spend their time going around the station talking to the various ambassadors about the Holy Grail, and this is the point where I would include a joke about the Narn being rude and launching a cow at them, but I just don't want to.

Later Gajic beats up some of Deuce's men with his pimp stick, but some of Deuce's men manage to corner the Ombuds and give him a big kick up the arse. The episode ends with Gajic being kidnapped and Ombuds Wellington about to be fed to Kosh, but then Gajic stands in the way and orders Kosh to reveal himself, at which point we learn that it's not really Kosh but a Hanar. The Hanar says "This one wishes to eat the Ombuds' brain, but you are in my path. Please stand aside so that this one can continue with his task as ordered upon this one by the Enkindlers." At which point Sinclair and Garibaldi show up and blow the crap out of it.

This really pissed me off. The only reason I was interested in this episode was because it promised something interesting regarding Kosh, but it turns out that it was all a big fake-out and I learn nothing about Kosh! I've deducted a point for this, it was shameful attention-seeking for an episode that wasn't interesting on its own.

Man, I miss the days when this show was promising.

Commander Greyshirt: 6
Scott Bakula: 11

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Hah, TGB agrees with me on "Grail"!

But don't worry... with TKO and Grail you managed to leave the worst behind you. At least the next episode will feature a good guest appearance by Scott Bakula (and this time the Bakula reference is almost true ). And the rest of the season after that one is pretty decent.

 

[Kegg]

Then the episode turns stupid again with the introduction of Gajic and his revelation that he's searching for the Holy Grail, and the episode also performs a neat piece of character assassination on Delenn and Lennier by having them revere a crazy person.

I wish. The truth is it's more integral to them than a character assassination. That's less of a spoiler and more of a warning, especially in Delenn's case.

This episode really does touch on stuff that's rather dear to JMS's heart, though, thematically speaking: The importance of faith as a search for meaning and an identity of purpose, regardless of whether or not what is believed in is true or even possibly true... and Arthurian romance. The guy really digs his tales of Avalon, and that'll be evident in ways both blindingly obvious and yet less so as the series goes on (I will pontificate on this subject when appropriate, never fear. Or rather, worry.)

I like Ivanova's line at the end, though. It's sort of so silly I can't help but like it.

One of the things about TKO that's regularly overlooked is that the A plot is about prejudice. Walker Smith, a black human is prejudiced against the 'snakeheads' and those same 'snakeheads' are prejudiced against the humans.

Jan

Actually, I think it's just the opposite. The "message" is so obvious and heavy-handed that people would rather not be bothered. And since the episode itself is such a doozy, the little substance there was seems completely vacant. So people just roll their eyes and move on.

Bingo. It's also culturally bizarre: The Mutai'Do isn't something reserved to any specific alien culture, it's something that brings Narn, Centauri, Drazi and various miscellany of makeup designs for the week together. Not that this is ever really explained as to why, nor do they outright explain if there are any other exceptions than humans, or if all aliens take part. It's an example of 'humans do this, but aliens do that' mentality B5 sometimes has that bugs me (all the aliens seem to know about the folks "Soul Hunter" for example, but the humans? Clueless).

I mean, imagine Americans referring to Cricket as the sport played by foreigners. Not the Brits, West Indies, etc.; just 'foreigners', and it's implied probably all foreigners play the game. Would that make any sense? It's lazy writing, just like the pseudo-Japanese gibberish ritualism of the whole thing. It's so very 80s and 90s, when dojos and karate were cool and suddenly white guys had to learn to respect the ways of the people we're appropriating or something like that. I'm just glad I was never physically competent enough to consider this practice. I'm fine with appropriating their movies and videogames and books, thank you very much.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

What I can't figure out is where the hell the station commander's office complex is. The hall marks are blue but it had a window with a view of the core, though no map has any part of blue sector encroaching into the core.

I reason that it's marked blue because all station administration/military areas of the station are marked with that color-code. So while the station commander's office complex (building?) is in the Garden (core), it'd still be marked as blue.

 

[Jan]

One of the things about TKO that's regularly overlooked is that the A plot is about prejudice. Walker Smith, a black human is prejudiced against the 'snakeheads' and those same 'snakeheads' are prejudiced against the humans.

Jan

Actually, I think it's just the opposite. The "message" is so obvious and heavy-handed that people would rather not be bothered. And since the episode itself is such a doozy, the little substance there was seems completely vacant. So people just roll their eyes and move on.

QFT.

Not my point but my fault for not being more clear. Up to TKO, we'd seen lots of human bigotry and even violence against aliens. It's not a big thing but it was refreshing to see that it's not just a human failing in the B5 universe.

As for Grail, I just loved the na'ka'leen feeder.

Jan

 

[tomalak301]

Yeah I liked TKO more than I liked Grail, but the stuff with Londo hiding in his quarters was funny. Also loved Ivanova's line at the end about the Babylon curse, and this is the episode we find out what really happened to Babylon's 1-4, the first question I had when I watched the series back when it was on originally.

 

[Kosh Naranek]

I watched In the Beginning and The Gathering before jumping into the series when it went to TNT.

I don't know if saying I was determined to like Babylon 5 is accurate, but those 2 movies intrigued me so that I kept going, even when some season 1 episodes were painful.

B5, Farscape and DS9 are my favorite shows.

 

[Canadave]

Yeah, the worst is now behind you, and the rest of season one is generally pretty good. In fact, I'd say that the remaining episodes range from "enjoyable" to "excellent," so it should be smooth sailing for you.

 

[Kegg]

Yeah, the worst is now behind you, and the rest of season one is generally pretty good. In fact, I'd say that the remaining episodes range from "enjoyable" to "excellent," so it should be smooth sailing for you.

Well, I'd disagree (as stonester1 might expect. ); if memory serves there's still a pretty stupid episode enlivened by a memorable performance by Jeffrey Coo... Scott Bakula. But yeah, there are also some of S1's best offerings yet to come.

Yeah I liked TKO more than I liked Grail, but the stuff with Londo hiding in his quarters was funny. Also loved Ivanova's line at the end about the Babylon curse, and this is the episode we find out what really happened to Babylon's 1-4, the first question I had when I watched the series back when it was on originally.

Unless you mean the Babylon curse was the reason they were all destroyed, we actually don't learn anything we didn't already know: Babylon 1-3 went boom, and Babylon 4 disappeared mysteriously. This was rather painfully spelled out way back in "The Gathering"; the only new detail is that the first Babylon station wasn't called Babylon 1. We still don't know what happened to Babylon 4 or, for that matter, what caused the first three to go boom.

Really, the problem with Jinxo's story for me isn't the coincidences, it's the circumstance behind the coincidences: Can you imagine any government stubbornly rebuilding the same project five times over? Besides the money that must have taken enormous patience and goodwill on their part and those of the populace, more than I'd consider feasible. After Babylon 3, say, you'd think they'd be about through and start looking for alternative peacemaking ventures.

But I disgress.

 

[Harvey]

Well, I'd disagree (as stonester1 might expect. ); if memory serves there's still a pretty stupid episode enlivened by a memorable performance by Jeffrey Coo... Scott Bakula. But yeah, there are also some of S1's best offerings yet to come.

What? A Larry DiTillo script with a cheesy villain that amounts to nothing?

I don't mean to be so hard on the guy, but it's pretty obvious from reading the season-by-season guides and the introductions to the script books that DiTillo wasn't allowed to write anything substantial. As a result, his scripts occasionally introduce interesting concepts that will never be heard from again...

Spoiler: season one and two DiTillo episodes

I like the Combs, er, Bakula character of the sympathetic Psi Cop in Eyes, but both the character and the possible complexity of divided loyalties among Psi Cops is lost once JMS is in full control.

I liked the idea that the Babylon 5 sector is populated by sentient noncoporeal lifeforms in Knives which might have come to the assistance of our heroes at some point. Instead, they basically exist to remind everyone that the part of space they're from is spooky, and are never heard from again.

I liked the conspiracy angle of Bureau 13 in A Spider in the Web, but that dangling thread is never brought up again. Supposedly because JMS discovered an RPG or something of the same name, which continues to srike me as being pretty lame.

I liked meeting Franklin's father in GROPOS. It would have been interesting to see him appear again, especially during the civil war arc. But, not to be.

 

[David cgc]

Really, the problem with Jinxo's story for me isn't the coincidences, it's the circumstance behind the coincidences: Can you imagine any government stubbornly rebuilding the same project five times over? Besides the money that must have taken enormous patience and goodwill on their part and those of the populace, more than I'd consider feasible. After Babylon 3, say, you'd think they'd be about through and start looking for alternative peacemaking ventures.

IIRC, the first four Babylon stations were each made of pieces of the previous ones. After Babylon 3, Earth decided they weren't going to let some pissant terrorists screw them over, and massively increased the size and defenses of Babylon 4. Thanks to the increased security, B4 actually made it... and then vanished.

They very nearly didn't make Babylon 5, but the Centauri sponsored the project, and the Minbari offered an even more substantial contribution that actually ensured the project went through. Of course, their condition was that they'd have veto power over the choice of the station's commander...

 

[Reverend]

Spoiler: season one and two DiTillo episodes

I like the Combs, er, Bakula character of the sympathetic Psi Cop in Eyes, but both the character and the possible complexity of divided loyalties among Psi Cops is lost once JMS is in full control.

I liked the idea that the Babylon 5 sector is populated by sentient noncoporeal lifeforms in Knives which might have come to the assistance of our heroes at some point. Instead, they basically exist to remind everyone that the part of space they're from is spooky, and are never heard from again.

I liked the conspiracy angle of Bureau 13 in A Spider in the Web, but that dangling thread is never brought up again. Supposedly because JMS discovered an RPG or something of the same name, which continues to srike me as being pretty lame.

I liked meeting Franklin's father in GROPOS. It would have been interesting to see him appear again, especially during the civil war arc. But, not to be.

Spoiler: everything

1. By "lost" I assume you mean building on some of the warnings given by Ironheart in 'Mind War' and later developed into the plight of the Blips on the underground rail-road and the foreshadowing of the Telepath War? Yes, you're right, from this point on Psi Corps was shown to be a faultless model of unity.
2. I think it was just meant as a reminder that the area was still funky before WWE. As for the creature itself, I'd hardly call it a potential ally, just an unfortunate being caught up in the time rift and thrown out into our dimension like a fish out of water. It'd be about as much use as a manatee in the sahara.
3. No supposedly about it. As for dropping it, far from it. They cropped up again several times, but were just never named as such. According to JMS, the Bureau was absorbed (or reabsorbed?) into a larger shadow organisation. From what I remember, the Psi Corps novels called it "Department Sigma" and they were behind the experiments on Ironheart & his friend, the sleeper program (obviously), the "weapons components" that were handed over to the shadows, the digs on Mars & Ganymede and by extension the development of the Advanced Destroyers, the thing that killed Gideon's old ship and by extension the occasionally mentioned Earthforce Bio-Weapons division (the one the bloke from 'Infection' said was using IPX as a front company) which was behind the illegal cyber experiments on GROPOs in Crusade (patterns of the soul) and the ones that chased the techno-mages into hiding. So I'd hardly call that plotline dropped. It's there if you can read between the lines.
4. JMS did mention an interest in having Franklin Snr coming back during the civil war. Not sure why it never came about but it could have one of three main possibilities: - A) JMS couldn't come up with a good story in incorporate his return. B) He had an idea but the actor wasn't available. C) The slight truncation of the civil war arc left no extra room to fit it in. Would have been nice though.

As for "why build 5 stations", Delenn asked that very question in 'The Gathering': -

Delenn: Why Babylon 5? If the prior four stations were lost or destroyed...why build another?
Sinclair: Plain, old human stubbornness, I guess. When something we value is destroyed, we rebuild it. If it's destroyed again, we rebuild it again. And again...and again until it stays.

I think the key phrase there is "something we value". Earth and the human race had just come back from the brink of extinction after the war so there was a lot of reason to keep at a project that promised peace and diplomacy. Plus of the first three, I think most of them never got very near to completion and were the victims of terrorist sabotage. Any government that's seen to give into terrorism would look weak, so they could hardly do that either. Still, B5 would have been the last regardless since there was no money left, hence co-sponsorship from the Minbari and to a lesser extent the Centauri, plus the numerous parts of B5 that were rushed, undeveloped or just substandard.

 

[hyzmarca]

Bingo. It's also culturally bizarre: The Mutai'Do isn't something reserved to any specific alien culture, it's something that brings Narn, Centauri, Drazi and various miscellany of makeup designs for the week together..

It's the Kumite, people. Come on. It couldn't have more obviously been Bloodsport in John Claude van Dam had guest starred along with Donald Gibb and Bolo Yeung.

Why are humans not allowed to compete? Because Americans weren't permitted to compete in the Kumite until JCVD and Gibb had proven.

 

[Harvey]

Spoiler: through season five

1. I'm talking about presenting a Psi Cop who was sympathetic, which the series never does again. It also doesn't bring back the character played by Combs, who (like the episode) ends up being rather pointless.

2. DiTillo mentions wanting to bring up these aliens again in the season-by-season guide for year two, but being unable to since JMS decided to take up all of the writing duties beginning in the third season. The audience really needs no reminder that the area was funky; the storyline is superfluous.

3. I'm well-aware of the officially stated reasons. It can be rationalized by incorporating it into the other telepath storylines, but that explanation isn't on screen.

4. Whatever the reasons, it's too bad. It would have helped to make the conflict more complex.

But, enough spoiler code. I've said my piece.

 

[Reverend]

Spoiler: through season five

1. I'm talking about presenting a Psi Cop who was sympathetic, which the series never does again. It also doesn't bring back the character played by Combs, who (like the episode) ends up being rather pointless.

Spoiler: Eyes & season 5

Well, if you absolutely must slit hairs then I should point out that he wasn't a Psi Cop at all. He was a P10 liaison on loan to Earthforce. Byron on the other hand, was a Psi Cop and he was most defiantly sympathetic. The fact that you only find out he's a P12 after the fact is besides the point.