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A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

I don't mean to be so hard on the guy, but it's pretty obvious from reading the season-by-season guides and the introductions to the script books that DiTillo wasn't allowed to write anything substantial. As a result, his scripts occasionally introduce interesting concepts that will never be heard from again...
Absolutely.

Actually, ignore Frankin's father, who at least got name-dropped. What about the conflict in this episode? It's about a planet we've never heard of before and will never hear of again; and aside from some half-hearted attempts to tie it into the Centauri-Narn arc by name-dropping that event it's completely superfluous. In a series where little details dropped by JMS in one episode become whole plots later on, that DiTillio's stuff emerges from nowhere and just as quickly vanishes is painfully obvious.

  1. No supposedly about it. As for dropping it, far from it. They cropped up again several times, but were just never named as such.
When in the series are they supposed to have returned, exactly? And I'd contrast to JMS's own invention, Night Watch, which is subtly set up in season two, has a big arc in season three, and is still name dropped throughout season four. Behind the scenes maybe the guy in the corner is Bureau 13, but for all intents and purposes narratively it was a thread set up that went nowhere.

Or just check the amount of grist we get from the Minbari War compared to... the Dilgar War. You can almost count the Dilgar references on one hand, despite it being a major and recent conflict. I do pick on DiTillio because truthfully some of his scripts were pretty terrible, but Harvey is absolutely right that the threads he set up were mostly put to one side. It's also true that the lack of sympathetic loyalists to Psi Corp is unfortunate; though - unintentionally, no doubt - JMS was left with a situation where his Psi Cop villain was more charismatic, entertaining, and frankly likeable than Lyta, Ivanova, Talia or Byron. Right, I'm probably in the minority there at least as far as Ivanova is concerned, but that Bester is fun.

Jeffrey Coombs' character is easily one of B5's one-shots that I would have loved to see again, and not just because Coombs is great, which of course he is. He's altogether charming and the most redeeming feature of that episode.




I think the key phrase there is "something we value". Earth and the human race had just come back from the brink of extinction after the war so there was a lot of reason to keep at a project that promised peace and diplomacy. Plus of the first three, I think most of them never got very near to completion and were the victims of terrorist sabotage.

Spending a huge military budget on building a station again... then again... then again... then again... then again... and even more remarkably, doing so in apparently a very short amount of time - in less than eleven years they build five stations. Even with the aliens footing some of the bill, that requires suspension of disbelief. It's that simple.

That it's never clear who was blowing up the station is also bothersome. Right, so maybe it was the Shadows, I don't care, but honestly I still believe he only blew up 1-3 so he could have the name 'Babylon 5'.

It's the Kumite, people. Come on. It couldn't have more obviously been Bloodsport in John Claude van Dam had guest starred along with Donald Gibb and Bolo Yeung.
You're probably absolutely right, but I really know absolutely nothing about boxing, wrestling, and most sports, so that would fly over my head.
 
It's the Kumite, people. Come on. It couldn't have more obviously been Bloodsport in John Claude van Dam had guest starred along with Donald Gibb and Bolo Yeung.
You're probably absolutely right, but I really know absolutely nothing about boxing, wrestling, and most sports, so that would fly over my head.
The Kumite doesn't really exist. It's a fictinal matrial arts tournament from the movie Bloodsport, one of the greast martial art films of the 80s, and the last really good film Jean Claude van Damme ever made. (and yes, I know I horribly mangled his name in my earlier post).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24j7WthwJXs
 
Allow me to clarify: I also only know of Jean Claude van Damme as that Belgian actor who was one of those eighties action movie stars. I have never seen one of his movies and know next to nothing about them (JCVD was his, right? Right?), so eighties action movies and sporting movies is like a cross-section of my complete ignorance.
 
Dude, watch Bloodsport. You're seriously deprived of a very important part of human culture here. It's a cinematic masterpiece (okay, not really, but it's a good movie).

Just remember that Frank Dux, the fellow whose "life" Bloodsport is based on has been raked over the coals by both Soldier of Fortune magazine and Bullshido for embellishing his exploits (and by embellishing, I mean just plain making stuff up).

While our at it also watch The Best of the Best, The Karate Kid parts I and II (avoid III like the plague), the Octagon, Lone Wolf McQuaid, Missing in Action I and II, Rocky I and II, Rambo I and II, Enter the Ninja, American Ninja I and II, and Gymkata (it's a really horrible movie, but horrible in a good way).

And while you're at it also watch Iron Eagle, The Rescue, and Red Dawn, and Road House.
 
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1. I'm talking about presenting a Psi Cop who was sympathetic, which the series never does again. It also doesn't bring back the character played by Combs, who (like the episode) ends up being rather pointless.

Well, if you absolutely must slit hairs then I should point out that he wasn't a Psi Cop at all. He was a P10 liaison on loan to Earthforce. Byron on the other hand, was a Psi Cop and he was most defiantly sympathetic. The fact that you only find out he's a P12 after the fact is besides the point.

Oh, it's the internet, hair-splitting is a must. :lol:

In all seriousness, I wasn't aware of that detail, which does bugger up my point, which is pretty slight in any event (and certainly the least pointed criticism of the four I made). On the other hand, as for the season five character you name, JMS may have intended for said character to be sympathetic, but such intentions never came across to this viewer.

There, I think that was vague enough to avoid having to spoiler code everything. I hope.

Back on track, I'm excited to see what TheGodBen has to say about the end of the season, particularly A Voice in the Wilderness, Babylon Squared, and Chrysalis. Those last two are especially good installments that (finally) sold me on the series after struggling through the pilot and much of the first season.
 
Actually, the Kumite was indeed real. Events didn't happen exactly like the movie, but there was such a tournament and Frank Dux is a real peep. A 1980 article in Black Belt mag goes over all this.

I gotta go watch Bloodsport again. That flick was great!:D
 
Spending a huge military budget on building a station again... then again... then again... then again... then again... and even more remarkably, doing so in apparently a very short amount of time - in less than eleven years they build five stations. Even with the aliens footing some of the bill, that requires suspension of disbelief. It's that simple.
Only B4 was completed. The rest were sabotaged early in construction.
They haven't built 5 Babylon stations. The first three were sabotaged/damaged during the *very* early stages of construction; they never got very far with them, so the cost was minimal. Only #4 was completed, very
expensive. When that vanished, they decided to scrimp and (with Minbari additional funding) built a half-assed B5; there will never be a B6.

jms

Jan
 
I wish. The truth is it's more integral to them than a character assassination. That's less of a spoiler and more of a warning, especially in Delenn's case.
As Dean Stockwell used to say: Oh boy! :scream: (He said it too, from time to time. I remember him and Scott Bakula saying it in unison in The Leap Back.)

This episode really does touch on stuff that's rather dear to JMS's heart, though, thematically speaking: The importance of faith as a search for meaning and an identity of purpose, regardless of whether or not what is believed in is true or even possibly true...
Hmm... I don't know, I suppose it depends on how it plays out on the rest of the series. I mean, I have little faith for anything, and I have no interest in seeking out purpose for my life, I'm quite content to just live my life and answer "I don't know" to all the big important questions. I could go searching for answers, but the answers I'd find would only apply to me, and it doesn't seem like it would be worth the effort to look for answers that I don't need.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm lazy.

I don't have a problem with a character having faith and searching for greater meaning, I adore Locke on Lost despite the fact that I'd think he was crazy if I met him in real life. But one of the things I enjoyed about Lost is that nobody believed or trusted Locke, he had to prove himself, and sometimes even scheme, in order to get people on his side. If everyone rooted for Locke from the beginning it wouldn't have been as fun at all, especially since nobody had any reason to follow him and every reason to think that he's insane.

In contrast, everyone either roots for Gajic without reason or they think that he's harmless. That's not nearly as fun, or any fun at all even.
 
Actually, ignore Frankin's father, who at least got name-dropped. What about the conflict in this episode? It's about a planet we've never heard of before and will never hear of again; and aside from some half-hearted attempts to tie it into the Centauri-Narn arc by name-dropping that event it's completely superfluous. In a series where little details dropped by JMS in one episode become whole plots later on, that DiTillio's stuff emerges from nowhere and just as quickly vanishes is painfully obvious.

When in the series are they supposed to have returned, exactly? And I'd contrast to JMS's own invention, Night Watch, which is subtly set up in season two, has a big arc in season three, and is still name dropped throughout season four. Behind the scenes maybe the guy in the corner is Bureau 13, but for all intents and purposes narratively it was a thread set up that went nowhere.

Or just check the amount of grist we get from the Minbari War compared to... the Dilgar War. You can almost count the Dilgar references on one hand, despite it being a major and recent conflict. I do pick on DiTillio because truthfully some of his scripts were pretty terrible, but Harvey is absolutely right that the threads he set up were mostly put to one side. It's also true that the lack of sympathetic loyalists to Psi Corp is unfortunate; though - unintentionally, no doubt - JMS was left with a situation where his Psi Cop villain was more charismatic, entertaining, and frankly likeable than Lyta, Ivanova, Talia or Byron. Right, I'm probably in the minority there at least as far as Ivanova is concerned, but that Bester is fun.

Jeffrey Coombs' character is easily one of B5's one-shots that I would have loved to see again, and not just because Coombs is great, which of course he is. He's altogether charming and the most redeeming feature of that episode.

That it's never clear who was blowing up the station is also bothersome. Right, so maybe it was the Shadows, I don't care, but honestly I still believe he only blew up 1-3 so he could have the name 'Babylon 5'.

The conflict in GROPOs was meant to be self contained. It was a small, power who's only value to Earth was it's position relative to the Narn & Centauri space. As was stated in the episode the whole thing was just a sabre rattling exercise by EarthGov.

As for Department Sigma, I listed a whole slew of incidents that they're connected with and like I said, if you read between the lines there's a consistent thread of a group within the EA messing around with Shadow Tech and sponsoring experiments involving telepaths and cyber-organics. Ultimately it "went nowhere" because Crusade was cancelled. If you look at some of the shows and have read the unfilmed scripts that were briefly made available a while back, it's obvious that the EA/shadow tech plot was due to come right into the foreground.

Just because Bureau 13 wasn't directly named again doesn't mean they weren't there. This is a SECRET organisation, yes? ;)
Plus, JMS has often said, B5 is a five year slice of time in a universe that stretches for some detail for a thousand years in either direction and in broad strokes for a million years before and after. Just because Bureau 13 or Department Sigma weren't exposed, taken down and pressed into community service within those 5 years doesn't mean it wasn't a significant thread in the overall tapestry.

I agree it's a shame Coombs never showed up again. He would have made a good guest star on Crusade, considering under he new rules, he'd finally be able to join Earthforce like Matheson.

As for who blew up thr forst 3 stations (such as they were) I think it's just put down to terrorism. Free Mars, Homeguard, someone like that.The Shadows were still aslepp at that point and their allies didn't twig to what B4 was until is was finished. As Jan said, the others were all destroyed in the very early phases of construction.

Having said that, I don't doubt that it was all contrived as you say, but I don't think it really matters if it was.

..Anyway, that's enough spoiler tagging for now. On with the next review! I want to hear what he thinks of the addition of the jive talking child genius character played by Scott Bakula.
 
The ones in the spoiler code, I suppose. But it hasn't gotten too bad, and The God Ben hasn't chided anyone with an ancient Scott Bakula curse yet, so I think we're in the clear.
 
What spoilers? :wtf:

Quite. Yeah, there is a conversation going on in spoiler tags, but it's in spoiler tags. That's why they exist!

This has really been one of the better watch-through threads I've seen as far as spoilers are concerned. People have generally been quite good at keeping things (at worst) very, very vague.
 
What spoilers? :wtf:
:rolleyes: When there are entire conversations taking place that contain mostly or only spoiler tags, then perhaps that is an indication that those posts should be posted in a more appropriate thread, don't you think? (yes, I'm looking at you, Kegg & Reverend)
 
What spoilers? :wtf:
:rolleyes: When there are entire conversations taking place that contain mostly or only spoiler tags, then perhaps that is an indication that those posts should be posted in a more appropriate thread, don't you think? (yes, I'm looking at you, Kegg & Reverend)

Then it's best to let the moderators deal with them. Otherwise we feel so unimportant and get so bored. ;) Although I can understand your POV, considering the size of the thread there don't seem to be too many posts of this kind. And they are encoded in the spoiler tags, so the real quandry is avoided.
 
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What spoilers? :wtf:
:rolleyes: When there are entire conversations taking place that contain mostly or only spoiler tags, then perhaps that is an indication that those posts should be posted in a more appropriate thread, don't you think? (yes, I'm looking at you, Kegg & Reverend)

You say that as if it should mean something. Don't get your granny panties in a twist, we know not to overdo it and TheGodBen knows not to peek, so relax.
 
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