A change bigger than the Klingons...

[eschaton]

I think it's silly to either say a season of a show will be awesome or terrible based upon a promotional trailer.

The trailer just tells you what the producers want you to think a show is. Not what it actually is.

I'm cautiously optimistic about Season 2. But if they don't fix the quality of the writing, fixing issues like poorly thought out design doesn't matter that much. People are willing to forgive almost everything so long as they are entertained. And people are willing to pick over virtually anything to death if they are not.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

This is correct. Their loud and obnoxious and incessantly repetitive nature make them appear far more numerous and organized than they really are.

I was gonna say "their mouths are in the majority", because most of us that like the show avoid arguing with them.

 

[Noname Given]

Why are people trying to rewrite history in this thread? The people who disliked Discovery disliked it MAINLY because they didn't consider it to be well written, believed it had a muddled plot, and thought it relied far too much on needless plot twists everyone guessed ahead of time. It lacked focus and good storytelling. The execution of ideas wasn't there. The general look of the Klingons or anything else didn't help matters. But people being positive of the show now who weren't previously show that people WANT to like this show. And any small change toward the better gives people hope it will be good.

It's fine if you enjoyed the writing, the storytelling, the plot... and the new visuals and inconsistencies that others were annoyed and frustrated by last season. But to say a minority found problems with the show and a vast majority loved it is ridiculous. They wouldn't be doing showrunner roulette and producer musical chairs and changing so much if that was the case. (Even giving Klingons hair is an insane compromise that's completely unexpected and shows someone is listening, and not just to some minority group of fans.)

I know this and other minor changes gives me hope that if they're going to fix something like that, then there's hope they're going to come back with far better writing and stories. And if they don't, people will have the same complaints about the quality of the storytelling like they had last time.

Showing the Enterprise crew in different uniforms, Klingons having hair and slightly less makeup, a lighter tone, not showing the spore drive at all are all things they didn't need to do, show, or change, but they did, and I think that's why people are hopeful at the moment. If Discovery starts spore driving around the universe an episode in, which is very likely given the set up in the trailer, then maybe people will start complaining again. But with the show making small steps here and there, there's at least some trust back that they'll find a reasonable way to end that tech by the end of the season.

Oh please. TNG Season 1 SUCKED hard - yet in subsequent seasons it developed a following and made Star Trek popular with a mass audience again. To think ST: D won't follow a similar Paradigm is ridiculous (And its first season was WAY BETTER WRITTEN and interesting then TNG Season 1.)
^^^
I am an always have been a BIG TOS fan who started watching first run on NBC with Season 3 at age 6 <--- And loved it more as I got older and caught up with the first two Seasons. In 1987 was COMPLETELY DISAPPOINTED with TNG out of the gate. It wasn't until TNG Season 3 that I started to think there might be something more than one or two watchable episodes per season.

I don't care for some of the choices they've made; but overall, they've done fairly well updating the TOS asthetic and I fiong this show way more interesting and enjoyable than TNG ever was.

My list of 'best to worst' series would be:
1) TOS
2)ENT
3)TAS
4)ST: D
5)DS9
6)TNG
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Absolute Bottom of the Barrel) ST: V <--- Still haven't tried to watch all its episodes (gave up after "The 37's", but did see the Borg eps and the Series Finale (talk about unwatchable;e fan wank... Braga should have been writing for Doctor Who and he seems to LOVE time travel finales.)

VMMV of course,

 

[fireproof78]

Why are people trying to rewrite history in this thread? The people who disliked Discovery disliked it MAINLY because they didn't consider it to be well written, believed it had a muddled plot, and thought it relied far too much on needless plot twists everyone guessed ahead of time.

The struggle I have is that is not how it is presented. It is presented that Discovery looks nothing like TOS, looks too advance, etc, etc. The discussions have revolved around aesthetics, with the occasional nod towards the last episode and the twists, not the other way around.

I certainly have not seen enough to speak with any certainty of what the majority thinks.

 

[Tuskin38]

Well the Connie is at least 10 years old when DSC starts so it’s not that crazy they’d look a bit more advanced

 

[Vger23]

I think it's silly to either say a season of a show will be awesome or terrible based upon a promotional trailer.

We engage in wild, unfounded, highly emotional, baseless speculation out here CONSTANTLY. Why should reaction to this trailer be any different?

I'm cautiously optimistic about Season 2. But if they don't fix the quality of the writing, fixing issues like poorly thought out design doesn't matter that much. People are willing to forgive almost everything so long as they are entertained. And people are willing to pick over virtually anything to death if they are not.

I'm happy to count myself in the "highly entertained" category.

 

[Amaris]

So far I still like The Orville a bit better, but I do have high hopes for season 2 of Discovery as well. I'll be watching.

 

[Rahul]

I see it everywhere now, from here to Facebook, even to YT comment sections: yesterday’s trailer has set in a BIG change for DSC... the general opinion has shifted from ‘this is not Trek, Orville is better’ to ‘This looks incredible, can’t wait to see it!’.. for the first time, the haters seem to be in the minority..! I think this signals a major shift in how the general audience perceives DSC..! (With general audience I mean the internet community as a whole).

I think the main reason for this is that the new trailer seems to hit the notes much better of what people expect from "Star Trek". Working in an established brand always has both the benefit and the problem of already pre-existing fans. But those fans also bring a lot of expectations with them. And by all objective means - season 1 of DIS simply didn't deliver on them. And this trailer - so far - does.

There will always be

1. A vocal minorty that hates any and every thing new, and
2. A vocal minority that can't see any flaws at all and will shout down any criticism of the stuff, no matter how deserved it might be

But the vast majority is more reasonable. They either like it, or not. Season 1 was perceiverd very critical. And IMO very deservedly so. But the trailer for season 2 looks very promising. I liked the characters from season 1 very much. But I was not a fan of the unnecessary reboot/re-imaginings, I hated both major plotlines (klingon war and mirror universe shoot-'em up), and was not a fan of it's over-reliance on references and fanwank. This trailer makes it look like they fixed two out of the three main issues - the main arc seems to be a genuine exploration/mystery story instead of the ever so generic space war, and it doesn't feel like a reboot anymore, but as part of the Trek universe again, just with a different production style.

Both are huge improvements. And I'm super positively surprised how fast and on-point they fixed the issues! They struck an almost perfect balance, of directly addressing the main points of criticism - and change them - while still being faithfull to everything else they did. Rarely have I ever seen creators coming this far around, this fast, and in this perfect amount. Listening to fan-backlash usually leads to overcorrection (see: Justice League after Batman v. Superman, and probably whatever Star Wars 9 will be).

But here, they seem to have struck a perfect balance, to satisfy both older fans and the new ones. That is pretty rare. And after the trailer - and the short episode - I'm back at willing to give any new Trek production the benefit of the doubt again (at least content-wise, distribution keeps being an issue...). Even if season 2 won't be perfect (it won't be), I see them moving in the right direction and trying to do the right thing. And that's really all I ever could ask for from a franchise, and then some.

 

[Refuge]

Why are people trying to rewrite history in this thread? The people who disliked Discovery disliked it MAINLY because they didn't consider it to be well written, believed it had a muddled plot, and thought it relied far too much on needless plot twists everyone guessed ahead of time. It lacked focus and good storytelling. The execution of ideas wasn't there. The general look of the Klingons or anything else didn't help matters. But people being positive of the show now who weren't previously show that people WANT to like this show. And any small change toward the better gives people hope it will be good.

It's fine if you enjoyed the writing, the storytelling, the plot... and the new visuals and inconsistencies that others were annoyed and frustrated by last season. But to say a minority found problems with the show and a vast majority loved it is ridiculous. They wouldn't be doing showrunner roulette and producer musical chairs and changing so much if that was the case. (Even giving Klingons hair is an insane compromise that's completely unexpected and shows someone is listening, and not just to some minority group of fans.)

I know this and other minor changes gives me hope that if they're going to fix something like that, then there's hope they're going to come back with far better writing and stories. And if they don't, people will have the same complaints about the quality of the storytelling like they had last time.

Showing the Enterprise crew in different uniforms, Klingons having hair and slightly less makeup, a lighter tone, not showing the spore drive at all are all things they didn't need to do, show, or change, but they did, and I think that's why people are hopeful at the moment. If Discovery starts spore driving around the universe an episode in, which is very likely given the set up in the trailer, then maybe people will start complaining again. But with the show making small steps here and there, there's at least some trust back that they'll find a reasonable way to end that tech by the end of the season.

Fair comment. It's naive to expect instant devotion that is as one-eyed as the opposite reaction, some of us have standards What I'm encouraged about is something as simple as colour and energy that is evident in the trailer. The tone of Season One was dreary. Michael Burnham and her tedious bla bla bla intros and voice-overs. The arc was seeped in war and played out against bald Klingons who looked like they were wearing masks. At least now they look like they're wearing wigs too However a few lines from Pike and one detects loyalty and heroics already! Star Trek characters can be wonderfully flawed beings etc. etc. but they still should have values and promote hope. Frankly Discovery choosing to have Michael end a war (after yet another threat of mutiny) by giving her chosen Klingon a weapon of mass destruction was awful. Star Trek can do better than that.

I would like Saru to be featured more and he struck me as disappointing at first. He, in my opinion was the only character to show any development at all. His journey left Michael's looking stagnant and he didn't need fanwank props to do it. We could do with a different enemy too. I wonder if the Logic Extremists and mention of the whole science and religion divide might springboard from Spock himself. He has such potential for that conflict and Michael can share in that. I just hope she doesn't drag things down, it would be nice if she could come into her own. She desperately needs to carry the lead rather than clinging to the coattails of Sarek or Spock.

I'm looking forward to some planet of the week adventure Have an overall ongoing story but a few cheap thrills and adventure is fun too.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I was gonna say "their mouths are in the majority", because most of us that like the show avoid arguing with them.

I mostly avoid this sub-forum because the haters ruin any attempt to actually discuss the show. It is a small minority, most other fan communities enjoy it. This is just an echo chamber.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

I mostly avoid this sub-forum because the haters ruin any attempt to actually discuss the show. It is a small minority, most other fan communities enjoy it. This is just an echo chamber.

I won't avoid anything because of those posters, but it is a PITA scrolling past those half-page tit-for-tat replies addressing each and every point the last one made.

 

[Refuge]

What is a sub-forum sub to?

 

[Tuskin38]

That is why the ignore button is your best friend

Though if an argument goes on for a long time it can make it look like people are talking to themselves

 

[Relayer1]

Spock's beard

Good band :

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[Jadeb]

I mostly avoid this sub-forum because the haters ruin any attempt to actually discuss the show. It is a small minority, most other fan communities enjoy it. This is just an echo chamber.

This cuts both ways. We're on a forum where a subset of pro-DIscovery fans regularly ridicule people who don't share their views and basically try to bully them off the forum. One example is the nerd shaming in the recent discussion of the Klingon design -- to think people would discuss the look of the Klingons on a Star Trek forum!

The people who spend a lot of time and effort actually presenting reasoned arguments -- the "point for point" posts denounced earlier in the thread -- aren't the problem, from my perspective. That's posting in good faith. What wears me out is the endless sniping and the one-liner "you're wrong" posts that add nothing of value. On both sides.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

This cuts both ways. We're on a forum where a subset of pro-DIscovery fans regularly ridicule people who don't share their views and basically try to bully them off the forum. One example is the nerd shaming in the recent discussion of the Klingon design -- to think people would discuss the look of the Klingons on a Star Trek forum!

The people who spend a lot of time and effort actually presenting reasoned arguments -- the "point for point" posts denounced earlier in the thread -- aren't the problem, from my perspective. That's posting in good faith. What wears me out is the endless sniping and the one-liner "you're wrong" posts that add nothing of value. On both sides.

I have no issue with reasonable arguments either, but what about when it's the same 2 posters, point-for-pointing for 3 or 4 pages, each post getting longer and longer?

And you're right, the "nope" reply, for me, is the other extreme.

 

[Mudd]

The haters have always been the minority

Meh, haters is a term of fannish convenience for persistent and vocal critics. The more signficant fact is that the folks who have watched Trek in the past and don't watch this one continue to be in the vast majority. Numbers is numbers, and lost audience is lost audience.

 

[fireproof78]

The people who spend a lot of time and effort actually presenting reasoned arguments -- the "point for point" posts denounced earlier in the thread -- aren't the problem, from my perspective. That's posting in good faith. What wears me out is the endless sniping and the one-liner "you're wrong" posts that add nothing of value. On both sides.

Agreed. It's depressing and frustrating and adds nothing to the discussion.

 

[BillJ]

Meh, haters is a term of fannish convenience for persistent and vocal critics. The more signficant fact is that the folks who have watched Trek in the past and don't watch this one continue to be in the vast majority. Numbers is numbers, and lost audience is lost audience.

To be fair, everything has a much smaller audience now. Which is why something like Discovery is seen as a success. In all honesty, it likely has less viewers than Enterprise did at the end. The Orville, also seen as a success has less viewers than Enterprise did at the end.

 

[Noname Given]

Meh, haters is a term of fannish convenience for persistent and vocal critics. The more signficant fact is that the folks who have watched Trek in the past and don't watch this one continue to be in the vast majority. Numbers is numbers, and lost audience is lost audience.

But that true of every Post TNG series (hey even as a strictly TOS fan, I can admit that Star Trek TNG had the highest amount of General/Casual viewers) ; so to say 'Star Trek has lost audience share since TNG ended...' isn't really news; or much of a putdown.

Hell, your favorite "The Orville" hasn't gotten anywhere near it's Premiere numbers either in it's first season, yet that doesn't stop you from enjoying it or talking about what you like and don't like about it.

In the end, it's another thing that can be used to denigrate ANY series, Star Trek or otherwise, and it a pretty weak argument given all the other things that go into why people start and stop watching anything.