A Brief Timeline of Ancient Interstellar Civilizations

[xenotaris]

Sorry if I am late to the party but I wanted to add something.

i never saw a problem there (disclaimer: it's one of my favourite episodes in all trek)

• satelites would be gone by now due to decaying orbits (is a geosync orbit geosync for a million years, let alone 65)?
• we went to the moon because we had a cold war. i see no reason why they had one
• they saw it coming but they saw it early - looking what is there was more importand then going anywhere
• let's just say they had bad luck and lived where that comet hit
• the built a few ship as a last ditch rescue attempt and only packed in their best and brightest

... and now the adventure starts

• their ships were sublight
• a couple of crash landings on not so good planets so they can't stay
• a big crash landing that cost them two million years

... and then there's the big one

we just haven't found anything yet !!

I also have a problem with the Voth. I think it is highly unlikely that a Prey species would develop sapience before a Predatory species. It would be more likely that a Troodon or a Deinonchyus would develop into a space faring species before any Hadrosaurid.

65 million years is a long time. And they are basically aliens with different ways/course of evolution compared to us. Who knows what their technology and Earth were like? Maybe it all biodegraded or was localized and destroyed by the asteroid (was it a targeted hit?) or it’s still lying underneath the Sahara or the ocean…it was Pangea back then…and Chakotay joked that if they got stuck in the 21st century there were still a lot of discoveries yet to be made.

Ummm technically 66 Million Years ago. Thats when dinosaurs went extinct. Also Pangea broke apart into Laurasia and Gondwanaland during the early Jurassic, that's millions of years before the Late Cretaceous extinction. Heck Earth during T. rex's time almost looked like the present day as in we have North America, South America, and Eurasia. Australia and Antarctica were still conjoined and India was an Island continent.

 

[FormerLurker]

I also have a problem with the Voth. I think it is highly unlikely that a Prey species would develop sapience before a Predatory species. It would be more likely that a Troodon or a Deinonchyus would develop into a space faring species before any Hadrosaurid.

Not necessarily. We evolved from a prey species that became a predator species because of how we evolved. There are theories that the prey species began scavenging carcasses of predator kills for denser caloric content, and began evolving accordingly as a result.

 

[xenotaris]

Not necessarily. We evolved from a prey species that became a predator species because of how we evolved. There are theories that the prey species began scavenging carcasses of predator kills for denser caloric content, and began evolving accordingly as a result.

That's not what I meant, I meant that a strictly herbivorous species like a Parasaurolophus (a genus of Hadrosaur) would be the least likely to develop sapience. Humans are descendants from omnivores, so we had the capacity to develop into predatory species.

 

[Arpy]

Well, I mean, we have an idea of how we evolved but that doesn’t mean that’s how everyone would. Tholians are completely different yet….

 

[xenotaris]

Well, I mean, we have an idea of how we evolved but that doesn’t mean that’s how everyone would. Tholians are completely different yet….

Evolution does tend to follow a set of patterns, so it isn't completely random. The Tholians look to me that they could have evolved from a predatory species.

But still comment of Pangea being still around until the asteroid killed the dinosaurs off just irks me.

Pangea formed during the Late Carboniferous/Early Permian periods.

Pangea broke apart during Late Triassic/Early Jurassic. Pangea had become Laurasia and Gondwanaland.

Which Laurasia and Gondwanaland broke up around the Late Jurassic/Early Cretaceous into the continents that we know today, although arranged differently.
(Australia was start part of Antarctica, India was an island continent, and South America wasn't connected to North America)

 

[Arpy]

Evolution does tend to follow a set of patterns, so it isn't completely random. The Tholians look to me that they could have evolved from a predatory species.

I don’t know that any of this is correct. That there are some patterns doesn’t mean that there can’t be others. Especially among aliens. Comparing Tholians to Earth predators is like saying you think Mussolini would make a good leader because he has charisma.

 

[oberth]

I don’t know that any of this is correct. That there are some patterns doesn’t mean that there can’t be others. Especially among aliens. Comparing Tholians to Earth predators is like saying you think Mussolini would make a good leader because he has charisma.

and fictional aliens at that

Pierson's Puppeteers - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[xenotaris]

I don’t know that any of this is correct. That there are some patterns doesn’t mean that there can’t be others. Especially among aliens. Comparing Tholians to Earth predators is like saying you think Mussolini would make a good leader because he has charisma.

You can't compare biological evolution to politics!

Look evolution has repeated itself constantly, I never said that all evolutionary paths would look the same.
When you truly boil things down:

Sedentary lifeforms work under the same basic principle bee that Tree, Mushroom, or Coral Reef, all three have an anchor system and both, with the exception of the mushroom, have "Branches".

All mobile lifeforms evolved "limbs" be that fin, flipper, or legs.
The wing has evolved multiple times in earth's history in different animal phylum, orders, and families.

Bipedalism evolved independently in vertebrates

The teeth of vertebrates also repeat the same patterns based on diet. Claws, digging nails, and hooves also evolved independently.

 

[oberth]

You can't compare biological evolution to politics!

Look evolution has repeated itself constantly, I never said that all evolutionary paths would look the same.
When you truly boil things down:

Sedentary lifeforms work under the same basic principle bee that Tree, Mushroom, or Coral Reef, all three have an anchor system and both, with the exception of the mushroom, have "Branches".

All mobile lifeforms evolved "limbs" be that fin, flipper, or legs.
The wing has evolved multiple times in earth's history in different animal phylum, orders, and families.

Bipedalism evolved independently in vertebrates

The teeth of vertebrates also repeat the same patterns based on diet. Claws, digging nails, and hooves also evolved independently.

the problem with that is until now you'vd got only one planet to base your 'laws' on and that's just bad statistics

... and btw, the voth had completely differant circumstances on that one planet

 

[xenotaris]

the problem with that is until now you'vd got only one planet to base your 'laws' on and that's just bas statistics

... and btw, the voth had completely differant circumstances on that one planet

What would make an alien planet be so different? Planets in general operate on the same laws. Big Planets = more gravity than Earth. Small planets + less gravity than Earth. Earth sized planets = similar gravity to Earth.

Regardless of Biochemistry, why would alien life really be all that different? If they evolved in the water and were free swimmers, wouldn't they evolve flippers, fins, water propulsion, or tentacles to navigate through the water? If they were sedentary life forms, wouldn't they also evolve some kind of anchor to keep themselves from being dragged away in the water currents?

Wouldn't any surface land-based alien animal develop legs to navigate the land or evolve away legs in favored of living in the soil? Or evolve specialized legs/fins/tentacles/gas bladder into wings/flight bladders to fly?

Wouldn't organisms evolve a head for better use to catch prey or to use to spot food or to store their brains? Yes maybe some aliens might develop a decentralized nervous system but how efficient would that make them if a more efficient alternative were to also evolve?

 

[oberth]

What would make an alien planet be so different?

my answer to that: what the fuck do i know

If they evolved in the water and were free swimmers, wouldn't they evolve flippers, fins, water propulsion, or tentacles to navigate through the water? If they were sedentary life forms, wouldn't they also evolve some kind of anchor to keep themselves from being dragged away in the water currents?

big IF, don't you think?

Yes maybe some aliens might develop a decentralized nervous system but how efficient would that make them if a more efficient alternative were to also evolve?

if 'we' find them that way that alternative obviously hasn't happened and it most likely won't due to 'our' influence (if 'we' make contact and not just observe)

 

[xenotaris]

my answer to that: what the fuck do i know

big IF, don't you think?

if 'we' find them that way that alternative obviously hasn't happened and it most likely won't due to 'our' influence (if 'we' make contact and not just observe)

I see you are not one to believe in convergent evolution. I can't imagine any lifeform that wouldn't evolve down a similar evolution to on Earth. I mean Star Trek is a huge supporter to Convergent Evolution, seeding planet plots aside, the fact that any lifeform could evolve into a humanoid form multiple times across a single galaxy is an extreme case of Convergent Evolution.

 

[oberth]

I see you are not one to believe in convergent evolution. I can't imagine any lifeform that wouldn't evolve down a similar evolution to on Earth. I mean Star Trek is a huge supporter to Convergent Evolution, seeding planet plots aside, the fact that any lifeform could re-evolve into a humanoid form is an extreme case of Convergent Evolution.

as i call it a terra-chauvinist then? it's our way or no way - terra as the crown of evolution.

do i think there's 'our' way of evolution out there? sure! do i think it's the only possible form of evolution? no way!

 

[xenotaris]

as i call it a terra-chauvinist then? it's our way or no way - terra as the crown of evolution.

do i think there's 'our' way of evolution out there? sure! do i think it's the only possible form of evolution? no way!

What like energy beings? Even they kind of conform to "our way" in the spirit of being like a single cellular organism devouring another like an amoeba. But then again I can't see an energy being last outside of a energy rich environment.

I can't imagine a lifeform to not resemble anything here on Earth, I mean I think a rock-alien would be similar to a sea sponge in the way it would hypothetically collect nutrients. A crystalline lifeform that jettisons small fragments of itself would be similar to the fern spores and fungal spores.

 

[NCC-73515]

Similar environments lead to similar evolution

 

[oberth]

I can't imagine a lifeform to not resemble anything here on Earth, I mean I think a rock-alien would be similar to a sea sponge in the way it would hypothetically collect nutrients.

exactly - and i don't have (and don't need to) a bloddy idea how that might work

... that's the fun of science fiction

 

[oberth]

Similar environments lead to similar evolution

who says the environments are similar (or need to be)?

 

[xenotaris]

who says the environments are similar (or need to be)?

Well Planets are round because of gravity, so life would evolved down similar paths based on their enviroments

 

[oberth]

Well Planets are round because of gravity, so life would evolved down similar paths based on their enviroments

vulcan has no moon let alone a fat one (scientists tell us without it we wouldn't exist because earth would spin way too fast) so how did evolution work for the guys with the ears?

 

[xenotaris]

vulcan has no moon let alone a fat one (scientists tell us without it we wouldn't exist because earth would spin way too fast) so how did evolution work for the guys with the ears?

Vulcans are not native to planet Vulcan. They are descendants from the Arretans, according to Sargon