A Brief Timeline of Ancient Interstellar Civilizations

[xenotaris]

Again, why not? Evolution is a process not a lineage. The universe is complex and “life finds a way.”

Because, with the sole exception of the elephant, Herbivores are dumb. They don't plan, they don't strategize their eyes are on the side of their head giving them terrible depth perception, and they are constantly hungry.

Carnivores and Omnivores are way smarter by comparison and they don't need to eat alot. Meat is filling. Meat is required for brain development.

 

[oberth]

Well our moon's core solidified and its early atmosphere was stripped away by the Sun's solar winds


I hate blatant retcons, where was this planet during the TOS, TOS movies, TNG, ENT?

never mentioned (apparently it was in some books)

T'Khut was visible in the TMP theatrical version, IIRC

i don't recall it, but it might have been cut from ther german movie version

T'Khut

T'Khut was an uninhabited class G planet in the Vulcan system. It formed a binary pair with Ni'Var, both of which orbited the star 40 Eridani A, and had one moon. In 2259, T'Khut was depicted on a diagram of the Vulcan system displayed in the shuttle Cervantes. (SNW: "Charades") This planet's...

memory-alpha.fandom.com

 

[Richard S. Ta]

All vertebrate animals are sentient, but only humans and apes are sapient.

That's not true. Various cetaceans and (surprisingly) some birds are also sapient.

 

[xenotaris]

That's not true. Various cetaceans and (surprisingly) some birds are also sapient.

Sorry forgot about the Whales (and dolphins) and Corvids (Crows and Ravens). Was busy between writing a comment for this post and writing my fanfiction.

 

[at Quark's]

Sargon was answering Kirk when he said that he referred to the crew as 'my children'.


SARGON: Because it is possible you are our descendants, Captain Kirk. Six thousand centuries ago, our vessels were colonising this galaxy, just as your own starships have now begun to explore that vastness. As you now leave your own seed on distant planets, so we left our seed behind us. Perhaps your own legends of an Adam and an Eve were two of our travellers.
MULHALL: Our beliefs and our studies indicate that life on our planet, Earth, evolved independently.
SPOCK: That would tend, however, to explain certain elements of Vulcan prehistory.
SARGON: In either case, I do not know. It was so long ago, and the records of our travels were lost in the cataclysm which we loosened upon ourselves.

Smart writing, anyway. Enough to create some fascinating possibilities (and possibly hooks for future episodes) but not writing themselves into a corner by stating anything definitive.

 

[Arpy]

Because, with the sole exception of the elephant, Herbivores are dumb. They don't plan, they don't strategize their eyes are on the side of their head giving them terrible depth perception, and they are constantly hungry.

Carnivores and Omnivores are way smarter by comparison and they don't need to eat alot. Meat is filling. Meat is required for brain development.

I mean you said it right there. Elephants are way smarter than any number of carnivores. There’s no magic in meat; it’s just an advantage. But the disadvantaged can still get ahead. Including herbivores. It’s a beautiful world of possibility.

That's not true. Various cetaceans and (surprisingly) some birds are also sapient.

I think as our ability to test for different kinds of intelligence, to scan for it improves we’ll find that there’s a lot more out there than we appreciate or understand. Dunno if it’ll be in our level (though maybe some will even be ahead of in some ways) but it will be precious and defended by law. Roddenberry’s novelization of TMP included some Eden-esque ideas of humans and animals living in harmony—maybe in some ways he was more ahead of his time than he knew. …and of course we’ll put some of them to work on starships.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

I think as our ability to test for different kinds of intelligence, to scan for it improves we’ll find that there’s a lot more out there than we appreciate or understand.

Indeed. As a cat owner, I swear that felines are sapient and are either a) too lazy or disinterested to complete our human tests or b) are just deliberately fucking with us by pretending not to be.

Sneaky creatures.

Really nice thread, Arpy!

 

[xenotaris]

I mean you said it right there. Elephants are way smarter than any number of carnivores. There’s no magic in meat; it’s just an advantage. But the disadvantaged can still get ahead. Including herbivores. It’s a beautiful world of possibility.


I think as our ability to test for different kinds of intelligence, to scan for it improves we’ll find that there’s a lot more out there than we appreciate or understand. Dunno if it’ll be in our level (though maybe some will even be ahead of in some ways) but it will be precious and defended by law. Roddenberry’s novelization of TMP included some Eden-esque ideas of humans and animals living in harmony—maybe in some ways he was more ahead of his time than he knew. …and of course we’ll put some of them to work on starships.

I never said elephants were smarter than carnivores, I meant to say that elephants were the only non-dumb herbivore. Meat contains a high number of protein which helps build bigger brains.

In the natural world, there would never be such a thing as living in harmony, the fact is nature is very cruel and brutal. It's survival of the fittest in the wild.

 

[Arpy]

I never said elephants were smarter than carnivores, I meant to say that elephants were the only non-dumb herbivore. Meat contains a high number of protein which helps build bigger brains.

I think elephants are quite a bit smarter than any number of carnivores on the planet.

In the natural world, there would never be such a thing as living in harmony, the fact is nature is very cruel and brutal. It's survival of the fittest in the wild.

There’s a bit of survival of the fittest in the human world as well but it isn’t anywhere near as brutal as in the animal. Still, there are degrees of these things. Relationships between humans and animals, and between animals that we only think of as enemies (or as predator and prey) caring for one another. The violence only comes out of necessity, of hunger. I wonder how far we could take it. If we could supply many “wild” animals with food if they wouldn’t become as pampered and domesticated as those in homes. If cats wouldn’t raise ducklings. Especially if we can learn to communicate with them and if they can be taught to communicate with each other. From birth. Probably won’t get rid of all violence but cutting it in half would be fantastically profound.

Add to all that the intelligence of whales, elephants, crows, octopuses, pigs, apes, etc, and the world becomes a way more complicated place. Early multi-species civilizations of animals? Then add alien animals a la Star Trek. Then repopulated animals a la Jurassic Park.

 

[oberth]

I never said elephants were smarter than carnivores, I meant to say that elephants were the only non-dumb herbivore. Meat contains a high number of protein which helps build bigger brains.

In the natural world, there would never be such a thing as living in harmony, the fact is nature is very cruel and brutal. It's survival of the fittest in the wild.

here may be, there might be a protein rich 'super lentill' on some alien planet that gives herbivores the advantage. i don't get your it needs to be exactly the same as it is here everywhere attitude - dal (lentils) have up to 20 grams of proteins per 100 grams; chicken have 25 (both after cooking) and that's on our planet.

Dal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

and if pandas were to eat soybeans instead of bamboo they might hold us in zoos.

 

[xenotaris]

I think elephants are quite a bit smarter than any number of carnivores on the planet.


There’s a bit of survival of the fittest in the human world as well but it isn’t anywhere near as brutal as in the animal. Still, there are degrees of these things. Relationships between humans and animals, and between animals that we only think of as enemies (or as predator and prey) caring for one another. The violence only comes out of necessity, of hunger. I wonder how far we could take it. If we could supply many “wild” animals with food if they wouldn’t become as pampered and domesticated as those in homes. If cats wouldn’t raise ducklings. Especially if we can learn to communicate with them and if they can be taught to communicate with each other. From birth. Probably won’t get rid of all violence but cutting it in half would be fantastically profound.

Add to all that the intelligence of whales, elephants, crows, octopuses, pigs, apes, etc, and the world becomes a way more complicated place. Early multi-species civilizations of animals? Then add alien animals a la Star Trek. Then repopulated animals a la Jurassic Park.

I think humans need to leave the wilds alone, we are already done enough damage to the ecosystem. Also how are Pigs, sapient?

Edit: Elephants being smarter than what carnivores? Invertebrates? Fish? Reptiles?

 

[xenotaris]

here may be, there might be a protein rich 'super lentill' on some alien planet that gives herbivores the advantage. i don't get your it needs to be exactly the same as it is here everywhere attitude - dal (lentils) have up to 20 grams of proteins per 100 grams; chicken have 25 (both after cooking) and that's on our planet.

Dal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

and if pandas were to eat soybeans instead of bamboo they might hold us in zoos.

I never said "exactly" the same, I was saying evolution repeats itself/follows some rules, much like how planets are all spherical/round and never come in Cubes or Pyramid shapes.

Edit: Before you say asteroids are not round, that is true but when an asteroid collects enough mass it becomes spherical

 

[oberth]

I never said "exactly" the same, I was saying evolution repeats itself/follows some rules, much like how planets are all spherical/round and never come in Cubes or Pyramid shapes.

Edit: Before you say asteroids are not round, that is true but when an asteroid collects enough mass it becomes spherical

the law of physics are not subject to evolution, are they?

I think humans need to leave the wilds alone, we are already done enough damage to the ecosystem. Also how are Pigs, sapient?

Edit: Elephants being smarter than what carnivores? Invertebrates? Fish? Reptiles?

we are part of the eco system, unless you believe some deity ....

 

[xenotaris]

the law of physics are not subject to evolution, are they?

Yes they are. Evolution like any scientific theory is based on evidence. The laws of physics influences evolution because you need physics to have reality.


Life evolve to survive their environment which is created by physics. Life that evolved a bigger planet than Earth would force the lifeform in question to evolve to deal with that higher gravity, same is true for lifeforms on smaller planets than earth just with lesser gravity.

Humans evolved bipedalism because our ancestors adapted to the savannahs. So in order to survive, we evolved needing to see above the tall grass. I studied human evolution as a high school project.

TLDR: Yes, Physics plays a major factor in evolution

 

[1001001]

Star Trek? Anyone?

 

[oberth]

Yes they are. Evolution like any scientific theory is based on evidence. The laws of physics influences evolution because you need physics to have reality.

nonsense, i said

the law of physics are not subject to evolution, are they?

... but now

Star Trek? Anyone?

yes sir, moderator, sir!

 

[Arpy]

I think humans need to leave the wilds alone, we are already done enough damage to the ecosystem. Also how are Pigs, sapient?

Edit: Elephants being smarter than what carnivores? Invertebrates? Fish? Reptiles?

I think you’ve glommed onto this idea that meat = superiority too much. For one thing, we omnivores are way smarter than any carnivore or predator on the planet.

Pigs are highly intelligent animals on par with some dogs and even some primates.

Yes, elephants are smarter than invertebrates, fish, reptiles, and many carnivorous predatory mammals like lions, wolves, bears, hyenas and many others.

The Star Trek of it all has to do with the afore mentioned Roddenberry-written novelization for Star Trek: The Motion Picture. I love the futurism of that part and others. Too often Trek is anything but futuristic. The DSC vision of the 32nd century is I want to say laughable but it’s closer to weep-able. If they really wanted to be bold they should have made everyone trans, not just a character. That is, when they’re being corporeal.

 

[FormerLurker]

I've seen videos of domesticated cattle getting disgusted with the chickens pecking around their hooves and swallowing them whole, and deer cannibalizing their brethren that have fallen to predators. It's not as cut and dried as you might think.

As for Star Trek, it has been fanon for fifty years that the Arretans are probably the origin of the Vulcans, and through them the Romulans. The Arretan colonization period probably accounts for the existence of the Mintakans as well.

 

[xenotaris]

nonsense, i said

Are you rejecting science? Evolution isn't a magic force, you can't create anything from evolution. It still has to adhere to the laws of physics, thermodynamics, geology, and chemistry. I said my piece, and now I bid you adieu.

 

[xenotaris]

I think you’ve glommed onto this idea that meat = superiority too much. For one thing, we omnivores are way smarter than any carnivore or predator on the planet.

Pigs are highly intelligent animals on par with some dogs and even some primates.

Yes, elephants are smarter than invertebrates, fish, reptiles, and many carnivorous predatory mammals like lions, wolves, bears, hyenas and many others.

The Star Trek of it all has to do with the afore mentioned Roddenberry-written novelization for Star Trek: The Motion Picture. I love the futurism of that part and others. Too often Trek is anything but futuristic. The DSC vision of the 32nd century is I want to say laughable but it’s closer to weep-able. If they really wanted to be bold they should have made everyone trans, not just a character. That is, when they’re being corporeal.

So elephants can plan and coordinate attacks like a predator? Also omnivore are partially carnivorous so they don't count against carnivores.