A Brief Timeline of Ancient Interstellar Civilizations

[oberth]

Are you rejecting science? Evolution isn't a magic force, you can't create anything from evolution. It still has to adhere to the laws of physics, thermodynamics, geology, and chemistry. I said my piece, and now I bid you adieu.

the laws of physics do influence evolution but they are not subject to it or how do you think the laws of physics evolved?

the law of physics are not subject to evolution, are they?

Yes they are. Evolution like any scientific theory is based on evidence. The laws of physics influences evolution because you need physics to have reality.

empasis mine

... and as we were asked to stop that by a mod i won't react further to that weird idea of yours.

 

[xenotaris]

Okay lets agree to disagree then and go on our merry way

 

[NCC-73515]

Meat contains a high number of protein which helps build bigger brains.

 

[xenotaris]

Nice ALIENS reference

 

[Arpy]

So elephants can plan and coordinate attacks like a predator? Also omnivore are partially carnivorous so they don't count against carnivores.

Here, per ChatGPT:

Yes, elephants are generally considered to be more intelligent than many carnivorous predators, particularly when comparing certain cognitive abilities. Here's how their intelligence stands out in comparison:​

​

1. Social Intelligence:​

- Elephants: Elephants have highly complex social structures, characterized by strong familial bonds, cooperation, and emotional depth. They can recognize individuals, form lifelong bonds, and exhibit empathy and altruism.​

- Carnivorous Predators: While some predators, like wolves and lions, exhibit social intelligence in hunting packs or prides, their social interactions are often more centered around survival and reproduction. The depth and complexity of social interactions in elephants are generally more advanced.​

​

2. Memory:​

- Elephants: Elephants are famous for their long-term memory, which helps them remember locations of water sources, past dangers, and social relationships over decades.​

- Carnivorous Predators: While predators like big cats and wolves have good memories related to hunting and territory, their long-term memory is not as developed or versatile as that of elephants.​

​

3. Problem-Solving:​

- Elephants: Elephants are excellent problem-solvers, known for using tools, understanding cause-and-effect relationships, and even working together to achieve a goal. Their problem-solving skills extend beyond immediate survival needs.​

- Carnivorous Predators: Predators are also skilled problem-solvers, especially in the context of hunting. However, their problem-solving abilities are often more specialized and focused on securing food, rather than the broader cognitive challenges elephants can tackle.​

​

4. Self-Awareness:​

- Elephants: Elephants have demonstrated self-awareness, such as recognizing themselves in mirrors. This suggests a high level of cognitive sophistication.​

- Carnivorous Predators: Most carnivorous predators do not show the same level of self-awareness as elephants. While they exhibit intelligence in hunting and territorial behaviors, self-recognition and higher-level cognitive processing are less evident.​

​

5. Communication:​

- Elephants: Elephants use a complex system of vocalizations, body language, and even seismic signals to communicate. They can convey a wide range of emotions and intentions through these means.​

- Carnivorous Predators: While predators like wolves and lions have sophisticated communication methods for coordinating hunts and social interactions, their communication is generally less nuanced than that of elephants.​

​

6. Emotional Intelligence:​

- Elephants: Elephants exhibit a wide range of emotions, including grief, joy, and compassion. They are known to comfort each other in distress, display mourning behaviors for deceased herd members, and show concern for injured or sick individuals.​

- Carnivorous Predators: While some predators, like lions or wolves, display emotional bonds within their groups, the emotional range and expression in elephants are generally more complex.​

​

Conclusion:​

Elephants tend to excel in areas such as social intelligence, emotional depth, long-term memory, and problem-solving outside of immediate survival needs. While carnivorous predators are highly intelligent in ways that are crucial for their survival, particularly in hunting and adapting to environments, elephants are often considered smarter overall due to their broader and more versatile cognitive abilities.​

Again, meat by itself does not make one being smarter than another or pure carnivores would be smarter than both herbivores and omnivores like us as well. Why aren’t lions (or take your pick of predatory pure carnivore) smarter than us?

 

[xenotaris]

Here, per ChatGPT:

Yes, elephants are generally considered to be more intelligent than many carnivorous predators, particularly when comparing certain cognitive abilities. Here's how their intelligence stands out in comparison:​

​

1. Social Intelligence:​

- Elephants: Elephants have highly complex social structures, characterized by strong familial bonds, cooperation, and emotional depth. They can recognize individuals, form lifelong bonds, and exhibit empathy and altruism.​

- Carnivorous Predators: While some predators, like wolves and lions, exhibit social intelligence in hunting packs or prides, their social interactions are often more centered around survival and reproduction. The depth and complexity of social interactions in elephants are generally more advanced.​

​

2. Memory:​

- Elephants: Elephants are famous for their long-term memory, which helps them remember locations of water sources, past dangers, and social relationships over decades.​

- Carnivorous Predators: While predators like big cats and wolves have good memories related to hunting and territory, their long-term memory is not as developed or versatile as that of elephants.​

​

3. Problem-Solving:​

- Elephants: Elephants are excellent problem-solvers, known for using tools, understanding cause-and-effect relationships, and even working together to achieve a goal. Their problem-solving skills extend beyond immediate survival needs.​

- Carnivorous Predators: Predators are also skilled problem-solvers, especially in the context of hunting. However, their problem-solving abilities are often more specialized and focused on securing food, rather than the broader cognitive challenges elephants can tackle.​

​

4. Self-Awareness:​

- Elephants: Elephants have demonstrated self-awareness, such as recognizing themselves in mirrors. This suggests a high level of cognitive sophistication.​

- Carnivorous Predators: Most carnivorous predators do not show the same level of self-awareness as elephants. While they exhibit intelligence in hunting and territorial behaviors, self-recognition and higher-level cognitive processing are less evident.​

​

5. Communication:​

- Elephants: Elephants use a complex system of vocalizations, body language, and even seismic signals to communicate. They can convey a wide range of emotions and intentions through these means.​

- Carnivorous Predators: While predators like wolves and lions have sophisticated communication methods for coordinating hunts and social interactions, their communication is generally less nuanced than that of elephants.​

​

6. Emotional Intelligence:​

- Elephants: Elephants exhibit a wide range of emotions, including grief, joy, and compassion. They are known to comfort each other in distress, display mourning behaviors for deceased herd members, and show concern for injured or sick individuals.​

- Carnivorous Predators: While some predators, like lions or wolves, display emotional bonds within their groups, the emotional range and expression in elephants are generally more complex.​

​

Conclusion:​

Elephants tend to excel in areas such as social intelligence, emotional depth, long-term memory, and problem-solving outside of immediate survival needs. While carnivorous predators are highly intelligent in ways that are crucial for their survival, particularly in hunting and adapting to environments, elephants are often considered smarter overall due to their broader and more versatile cognitive abilities.​

Again, meat by itself does not make one being smarter than another or pure carnivores would be smarter than both herbivores and omnivores like us as well. Why aren’t lions (or take your pick of predatory pure carnivore) smarter than us?

Okay point taken, Elephants are a sapient species. I am aware of elephants being tool users and they have awesome memory but I wasn't aware of the other stuff.

 

[1001001]

Here, per ChatGPT:

Yes, elephants are generally considered to be more intelligent than many carnivorous predators, particularly when comparing certain cognitive abilities. Here's how their intelligence stands out in comparison:​

​

1. Social Intelligence:​

- Elephants: Elephants have highly complex social structures, characterized by strong familial bonds, cooperation, and emotional depth. They can recognize individuals, form lifelong bonds, and exhibit empathy and altruism.​

- Carnivorous Predators: While some predators, like wolves and lions, exhibit social intelligence in hunting packs or prides, their social interactions are often more centered around survival and reproduction. The depth and complexity of social interactions in elephants are generally more advanced.​

​

2. Memory:​

- Elephants: Elephants are famous for their long-term memory, which helps them remember locations of water sources, past dangers, and social relationships over decades.​

- Carnivorous Predators: While predators like big cats and wolves have good memories related to hunting and territory, their long-term memory is not as developed or versatile as that of elephants.​

​

3. Problem-Solving:​

- Elephants: Elephants are excellent problem-solvers, known for using tools, understanding cause-and-effect relationships, and even working together to achieve a goal. Their problem-solving skills extend beyond immediate survival needs.​

- Carnivorous Predators: Predators are also skilled problem-solvers, especially in the context of hunting. However, their problem-solving abilities are often more specialized and focused on securing food, rather than the broader cognitive challenges elephants can tackle.​

​

4. Self-Awareness:​

- Elephants: Elephants have demonstrated self-awareness, such as recognizing themselves in mirrors. This suggests a high level of cognitive sophistication.​

- Carnivorous Predators: Most carnivorous predators do not show the same level of self-awareness as elephants. While they exhibit intelligence in hunting and territorial behaviors, self-recognition and higher-level cognitive processing are less evident.​

​

5. Communication:​

- Elephants: Elephants use a complex system of vocalizations, body language, and even seismic signals to communicate. They can convey a wide range of emotions and intentions through these means.​

- Carnivorous Predators: While predators like wolves and lions have sophisticated communication methods for coordinating hunts and social interactions, their communication is generally less nuanced than that of elephants.​

​

6. Emotional Intelligence:​

- Elephants: Elephants exhibit a wide range of emotions, including grief, joy, and compassion. They are known to comfort each other in distress, display mourning behaviors for deceased herd members, and show concern for injured or sick individuals.​

- Carnivorous Predators: While some predators, like lions or wolves, display emotional bonds within their groups, the emotional range and expression in elephants are generally more complex.​

​

Conclusion:​

Elephants tend to excel in areas such as social intelligence, emotional depth, long-term memory, and problem-solving outside of immediate survival needs. While carnivorous predators are highly intelligent in ways that are crucial for their survival, particularly in hunting and adapting to environments, elephants are often considered smarter overall due to their broader and more versatile cognitive abilities.​

Again, meat by itself does not make one being smarter than another or pure carnivores would be smarter than both herbivores and omnivores like us as well. Why aren’t lions (or take your pick of predatory pure carnivore) smarter than us?

Enough!

Feel free to discuss evolution and the animal kingdom in the correct forum.

 

[xenotaris]

Enough!

Feel free to discuss evolution and the animal kingdom in the correct forum.

Where is that forum, if I may ask?

 

[1001001]

Where is that forum, if I may ask?

Science and Tech would be the obvious choice.

 

[xenotaris]

Science and Tech would be the obvious choice.

thank you

 

[Arpy]

Enough!

Feel free to discuss evolution and the animal kingdom in the correct forum.

I don’t understand this reaction at all. We had a civil enough conversation that I think we concluded without incident. We were not discussing say a NASA press release that needs its own thread. Just different perspectives that arose naturally from Trek. And after which I know I (and maybe others) will go into my next Trek with some new perspectives. It’s a win all around.

 

[1001001]

I don’t understand this reaction at all. We had a civil enough conversation that I think we concluded without incident. We were not discussing say a NASA press release that needs its own thread. Just different perspectives that arose naturally from Trek. And after which I know I (and maybe others) will go into my next Trek with some new perspectives. It’s a win all around.

I told everyone before to get back to Star Trek. You continued off topic discussion, which I then redirected for a second time. Now you’re arguing with a staff member’s instructions.

The board is set up the way it is on purpose. Discussions about real science goes in Science and Tech.

That’s all. Move on.

 

[NCC-73515]

Nice ALIENS reference

All it took was your avatar, that BBB statement, and the still fresh experience of Alien Romulus in my mind

I guess when it comes to the evolution of energy creatures, all bets are off. We can't even imagine how they would work
But evolution on M-class worlds with carbon units should follow the same rules and patterns as on earth.

 

[xenotaris]

All it took was your avatar, that BBB statement, and the still fresh experience of Alien Romulus in my mind

I guess when it comes to the evolution of energy creatures, all bets are off. We can't even imagine how they would work
But evolution on M-class worlds with carbon units should follow the same rules and patterns as on earth.

Ah, oh is your avatar MUTHUR 9000's mainframe?

I would imagine that energy beings would feed on stars like the Star Vampires from the Warhammer series.

I am very curious why the Vulcans evolved their hearts in their Left? or was right ribcage? If Vulcans did naturally evolved on Vulcan, I would like to hear a in-universe scientific explanation. I would love to see a Speculative Evolution story based on the Star Trek races. I think the discussion of Speculative Evolution in Star Trek should be a new topic.

 

[Farscape One]

Despite having a lot of races already mentioned, it's likely there are a lot of others left to be discovered or at least mentioned. Iconians, for example, had at least several enemies. Getting bombed from orbit, they clearly pissed off a few other races. Iconia ended up becoming an old legend. There has to be something left of those that attacked their homeworld, for example. Space is too vast to not have many more older empires previously existing.

I'd be interested in seeing a series where the entire premise is searching for ancient civilizations. Set it in the early 25th century.

As a bonus, it could have a few old friends from the 24th century shows pop in once in a while to assist in learning about those civilizations.

Civilizations that spanned many sectors. Or just one star system. No limits on what can be done here. Do episodes that take place in an ancient era. Episodes like "DISTANT ORIGIN" (one of my favorites), where it's told almost entirely from the aliens' perspective. Stories like that would have no limitations now. CGI has enabled things like Species 10-C to be convincingly shown. Effects in that arena have come a long way since Species 8472. Not that Species 8472 was bad looking... they looked great at the time. Dated at this point, but that's just the evolution of the tech behind it. I'd like to see some truly alien looking ancient aliens, though. Nothing has been established that there weren't other non-humanoid aliens that evolved after the Progenitors seeded worlds and died off. Got to be more evidence lying around in a bunch of places.

Dead civilizations... the more I think about this, the more I think this premise would be perfect now. It's not original, but it can be tailor made for the franchise. CRUSADE (BABYLON 5 spinoff), for example, had a primary mission of searching out dead civilizations to help find a cure for the Drakh plague. Killed before its time, but I think the ideas behind that show would work very well for a STAR TREK series.

 

[xenotaris]

Despite having a lot of races already mentioned, it's likely there are a lot of others left to be discovered or at least mentioned. Iconians, for example, had at least several enemies. Getting bombed from orbit, they clearly pissed off a few other races. Iconia ended up becoming an old legend. There has to be something left of those that attacked their homeworld, for example. Space is too vast to not have many more older empires previously existing.

I'd be interested in seeing a series where the entire premise is searching for ancient civilizations. Set it in the early 25th century.

As a bonus, it could have a few old friends from the 24th century shows pop in once in a while to assist in learning about those civilizations.

Civilizations that spanned many sectors. Or just one star system. No limits on what can be done here. Do episodes that take place in an ancient era. Episodes like "DISTANT ORIGIN" (one of my favorites), where it's told almost entirely from the aliens' perspective. Stories like that would have no limitations now. CGI has enabled things like Species 10-C to be convincingly shown. Effects in that arena have come a long way since Species 8472. Not that Species 8472 was bad looking... they looked great at the time. Dated at this point, but that's just the evolution of the tech behind it. I'd like to see some truly alien looking ancient aliens, though. Nothing has been established that there weren't other non-humanoid aliens that evolved after the Progenitors seeded worlds and died off. Got to be more evidence lying around in a bunch of places.

Dead civilizations... the more I think about this, the more I think this premise would be perfect now. It's not original, but it can be tailor made for the franchise. CRUSADE (BABYLON 5 spinoff), for example, had a primary mission of searching out dead civilizations to help find a cure for the Drakh plague. Killed before its time, but I think the ideas behind that show would work very well for a STAR TREK series.

Well I think there were non-humanoid sapient species around the time the Progenitors achieved warp travel, the progenitors seemed to wanted to make more humanoids since nobody looked like them.

 

[Arpy]

Despite having a lot of races already mentioned, it's likely there are a lot of others left to be discovered or at least mentioned. Iconians, for example, had at least several enemies. Getting bombed from orbit, they clearly pissed off a few other races. Iconia ended up becoming an old legend. There has to be something left of those that attacked their homeworld, for example. Space is too vast to not have many more older empires previously existing.

I'd be interested in seeing a series where the entire premise is searching for ancient civilizations. Set it in the early 25th century.

As a bonus, it could have a few old friends from the 24th century shows pop in once in a while to assist in learning about those civilizations.

Civilizations that spanned many sectors. Or just one star system. No limits on what can be done here. Do episodes that take place in an ancient era. Episodes like "DISTANT ORIGIN" (one of my favorites), where it's told almost entirely from the aliens' perspective. Stories like that would have no limitations now. CGI has enabled things like Species 10-C to be convincingly shown. Effects in that arena have come a long way since Species 8472. Not that Species 8472 was bad looking... they looked great at the time. Dated at this point, but that's just the evolution of the tech behind it. I'd like to see some truly alien looking ancient aliens, though. Nothing has been established that there weren't other non-humanoid aliens that evolved after the Progenitors seeded worlds and died off. Got to be more evidence lying around in a bunch of places.

Dead civilizations... the more I think about this, the more I think this premise would be perfect now. It's not original, but it can be tailor made for the franchise. CRUSADE (BABYLON 5 spinoff), for example, had a primary mission of searching out dead civilizations to help find a cure for the Drakh plague. Killed before its time, but I think the ideas behind that show would work very well for a STAR TREK series.

Yeah you know I wouldn’t have thought of it at first but maybe something of a combo Crusade/Dr Who-like series exploring the Trek past as well as the Trek present. Looking at my list on page 1 (and a bunch of other stuff I didn’t include from the canon, the lit, and the fanon), there’s easily a series’ worth of stories to explore. The histories of these civilizations, their contemporaries, and entirely new ones from the galaxy’s/universe’s/multiverse’s long history would make for a hell of a Star Trek show. Ideally each episode would be a little morality tale and tie into real world goings on, a larger series arc, and to the individual lives of the characters. You’d need heavy use of CG to really do it right—to get away with not building lots of sets every episode or season…maybe some cost saving in doing the ENT S4 mini-arc thing. But yeah, this would be great!

Well I think there were non-humanoid sapient species around the time the Progenitors achieved warp travel, the progenitors seemed to wanted to make more humanoids since nobody looked like them.

I took “The Chase” to mean the other thing, where they were completely alone in regard to intelligent life. They could have made friends/mated with others. Instead they saw the only intelligence, themselves, dwindling and one day the galaxy full of intelligent life unlike their forgotten own. So they set out to leave something of themselves among the many other diverse lifeforms out there to come. So that someone remembered them. What I’d love love love is for the series to tackle many more non humanoids.

 

[Arpy]

I wonder how you’d do it though, right? Send a ship out in our time then have them jump to the past a la the mycelial network? Timecops from the 29th Century? Those are very orderly. Maybe something more chaotic out of Quantum Leap or Farscape (lol), where the ship is a bit remote and untethered in time and keeps jumping to different periods we later find out are part of a larger arc. Opportunities for stories of all kinds and on all scales. Barren planet of a world that destroyed itself around our level of tech/politics, galaxy spanning mega civilization, character-heavy relationship bottle-episode between jumps, etc.

Then, of course, there are The Others.

 

[NCC-73515]

Ah, oh is your avatar MUTHUR 9000's mainframe?

 

[Richard S. Ta]

I never said elephants were smarter than carnivores, I meant to say that elephants were the only non-dumb herbivore. Meat contains a high number of protein which helps build bigger brains.

In the natural world, there would never be such a thing as living in harmony, the fact is nature is very cruel and brutal. It's survival of the fittest in the wild.

Gorillas are considered to be functionally herbivores in the wild. The only protein they intake is from insects which happen to be in or on the greens they eat.

Gorillas are, on the whole, pretty smart.