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12 Monkeys..tv show

One thing about this show I'm getting tired of is how it insists on repeatedly devoting time to lectures on its rules of time travel as if they were something novel and profound, when they're the exact same time-travel cliches about changing history that everyone already knows. (They're entirely wrong from a physical and logical standpoint, but they're the standard conceits of time-travel fiction.) So not only is it tedious to have to sit through the explanations as though there's something novel about them, but it's implausible that the characters would need those explanations. I mean, I can buy that if Ramse and Cole grew up in a world without Shakespeare and Beethoven, they probably never saw Back to the Future either, but Cassandra certainly shouldn't have needed Cole's lectures in the pilot episode, or at least shouldn't have reacted as though she'd never encountered the concept before.

Then again, maybe the events of "The Night Room" justify those lectures, since it's suggesting that maybe the characters were wrong about how time travel works. From the end, it looked like Cole did change things up in 2043, but he wasn't simply erased like they thought he'd be. So maybe it needed to be established what the characters believed about time travel physics in order to set up the surprise when it plays out differently.

Which would be a relief, really, since there's a basic contradiction in the "rules" they've spelled out so far. We've seen Jones tell Cole that he couldn't risk meeting Railly in the past and changing their history so that she wouldn't be there at the hotel to save him, and other instances of "You must preserve event A so it leads to event B." But at the same time, they're working toward the goal of preventing the plague so that Cole never goes back in time in the first place. Do you see the contradiction? If he never goes back, what's to prevent the plague?

Fortunately, the final scene here suggests something that's also part of the routine, cliched rules of fictional time travel, but that makes sense in context: that the time traveler's own actions and existence are conserved. That a time traveler is "outside" of time and is thus insulated from the changes that affect everyone else, and so whatever actions a time traveler takes to create a new timeline are preserved rather than creating an irresolvable paradox.

It's still confusing, though, since for the most part, this show has followed a self-consistent loop model. They keep claiming that time can be rewritten, but up until the final scene of this episode, the only actual change in time that we've seen was the scratch appearing on Cassie's watch crystal. And what do you want to bet that the remains containing the source virus are the remains of one of Jones's prototype time travelers? After all, they showed that mummy under a voiceover of Jones saying that some of her test subjects were lost in time. Which suggests it's another self-fulfilling loop: She caused the plague by trying to prevent it. I was starting to wonder if it would turn out that nothing major could really be changed after all, but the final scene suggests otherwise. (Unless he's just jumped back further forward than he was supposed to.)
 
It's definitely been a closed loop up till now because right off the bat, on his first jump, tall, pale and spooky, and Goines both state that they have already met Cole before.

Some new element has been introduced into the previously closed system.

We just have to figure out who (or what) that element is and how it squeezed in.

Maybe Jennifer's insanity is a randomizer that even time can't rely on?

When Cole was fighting a masked man a few episodes back, I assumed one of them was Ramsey. A second time traveller would definitely break a closed system and create a new equilibrium, but we have no proof of that.
 
I liked the last episode 'The Clean Room'. I think Tom Noonan does a great job as 'The Tall Man' . As mentioned, above it would seem that time can be changed after all. I wonder what part Cole's adventure in the clean room changed it though?
 
^It was actually called "The Night Room" -- allegedly because those sterilizing UV lamps in the ceiling looked like stars, but I don't think the design quite matched the script there (also, since when did UV lamps work like flamethrowers?). Indeed, that chamber was anything but a cleanroom; people were coming in and out of it freely without any kind of decontamination procedure, and they weren't putting on cleanroom suits or paper booties or anything.
 
Your right, my memory must be getting faulty ;)

Overall, I find myself liking this show and I really want to see how they play out the story.

When they removed the corpse out of the vault and Cole started to have some reaction to it, I thought that the corpse was maybe actually Cole from the future and not one of the first time travelers. Thought he might be having a reaction from being to close to himself.
 
^Yeah, I've seen that suggested somewhere else. Although if he were a carrier of the virus, wouldn't he already have infected the world just by going back in time? So I'm not sure that really makes sense.

Maybe he has the same reaction to any time traveler, not just himself?
 
Still watching ...interesting..finally a big change although the wrong one and a reset.
i like the fact that someone made a reference to McFly.

I mean if someone tried to convince me they iwere from the future I would make.a reference like that
 
I actually am from the future, no shit.

International dateline.

I'm 3/4's the way through Tuesday.

You got anything you want to say to me?
 
^Yeah, I've seen that suggested somewhere else. Although if he were a carrier of the virus, wouldn't he already have infected the world just by going back in time? So I'm not sure that really makes sense.

Maybe he has the same reaction to any time traveler, not just himself?

Since he went back to the same time, I was expecting him to be in close proximity to his other self at that moment, but he never entered the building. :shrug:
 
Finally got caught up on this and I really enjoyed the last couple episodes.
I was surprised they actually gave us all of the stuff in the Night Room already. I figured we wouldn't get that until the end of the series.
I was wondering if the body was from the future too. That is the kind of stuff they love to do in these kinds of shows. At first I thought they were saying it outright, but I guess that was just me reading stuff into it.
It'll be interesting to see what they do with Noah Beans's character now that he knows the truth.
I'm curious if The Witness is going to be anyone we know? Every time they said that, al I could think of was Sleepy Hollow.
 
Good episode, now we have established that time can be changed and we are introduced to one of Tall Man's partners.

So the number of splinters that Cole can do is finite, I wonder what will happen with that.
 
Well "logically" there will always still be another Cole who has never time travelled if changes big enough are made with his last splinter.
 
'The Keys' was another good episode. Poor Cassie knowing Cole was going to die but had to hold back to let him complete the mission.
 
Of course, Cole can't actually be dead. Even aside from the fact that he's the star of the show, he hasn't gone back to 1987 yet. He could've splintered just before the missile hit.
 
He doesn't have to go to 1987.

When he's shot in the past becauseof changes to the past, the bullet wound is retroactively added to his present self who hadn't been shot before changes were made.

After Cassie died, he had two sets of memories (timeline a + timeline B) driving him insane that were eventually going to kill him because they both couldn't fit in his head for so long. In Timeline b, Jones didn't know about Goines or the Army of the 12 monkeys so it's probably unlikely that she knew about 1987.

1987 is a cock tease, but not a certainty.
 
Really enjoyed this one. I loved the way they played around with all of the time travel stuff here.
 
I only watched the first 15 minutes... it was a beat by beat repeat of the movie. I've already seen the movie many times, so it didn't hook me to keep going.

I loved the movie and watched it again last night after watching the first episode. The TV show incorporated some elements faithfully but I disliked the way the time travel was stamped so firmly in the characters' faces so early on leaving no room for ambiguity.

The biggest issue I have is that the movie represents one of the greatest stories about the pre-destination paradox, which rarely ever done well (Terminator being one exception). Straight away in episode one they threw that baby out with the bathwater with the watch i.e the watch in the future should already have had the scratch so it would only have been convincing if it had been introduced earlier and the scratch then happened by accident. This offended me to such an extent I'm not sure I can keep watching.
 
If this show lasts 5 years, it can't still be about mapping the extents of a closed system.

Besides, they can't out do the movie repeating the movie verbatim, they have to tell a different story with the same tools.
 
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