Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

[Reverend]

I honestly don't get the logic behind the idea that Ward could just be going along with Garrett "out of loyalty for his old SO". So, what, he murdered a quadriplegic and three fellow agents out of loyalty to a man who's betrayed everything Ward swore to uphold and protect and is revealed as the one that's been jerking them around with shadow games all season long? The man that has probably been typing those messages in people's eyeballs. The man who had Peterson mutilated, cybernetically modified and enslaved using his son as leverage. The man who had Coulson tortured and probably ordered Skye shot just to see if Coulson would lead him to some of Fury's secrets...

That's not loyalty, that's devotion to a cause. He's Hydra, through and through. End of story. Anything else like mind control or "only pretending to be evil" would be a total cop out

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'd say ten years ago, Ward was told that Hydra ran S.H.E.I.L.D. and that he would be paid double if he filed extra reports for Hydra, and at the very end of it all, there would be world peace and a position near the top proportionate to his duties and faith towards the organization.

There are no off book hydra specific secret missions.

All S.H.E.I.L.D. missions are Hydra Missions, and all hydra missions are S.H.E.I.L.D. missions because S.H.E.I.L.D. has done everything as awful as you think Hydara is capable of in the name of world peace and the greater good becuase S.H.E.I.L.D. is Hydra and there is really very little difference.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I disagree that all HYDRA missions are SHIELD missions. HYDRA played both sides, so there are non-SHIELD HYDRA missions that were probably KGB or some other organization.

But it is fair to point out that Nick Fury had no problem with Insight in the abstract. It was more the scale and questionable oversight that concerned him. People were manipulated by HYDRA because HYDRA told them what they wanted to hear.

 

[dansigal]

I think because if it is true that Ward is actually really a bad guy, it would truly be groundbreaking for network T.V. Ward is the hunky male lead who you know will get with the "cute" female lead eventually. I don't know if turning this guy bad has ever been done before on network broadcast T.V. This would be like Will Ryker turning out to be a Romulan agent, or Chacotay turning out to be working with the Borg or (those people with the crazy hair).

Dollhouse did it, which coincidentally, was another Whedon show.

Who was that character?

Spoiler: Dollhouse - entire series

Boyd - Who was the main character's handler/body guard/ally for the entire two seasons of the show turned out to be the ultimate big bad of the entire series

 

[Scout101]

I disagree that all HYDRA missions are SHIELD missions. HYDRA played both sides, so there are non-SHIELD HYDRA missions that were probably KGB or some other organization.

But it is fair to point out that Nick Fury had no problem with Insight in the abstract. It was more the scale and questionable oversight that concerned him. People were manipulated by HYDRA because HYDRA told them what they wanted to hear.

Had no problem with it as a spying/keeping tabs on everyone idea, but I doubt he was too in the loop about the 'guns that kill everyone that could be a problem' part. Likely was sold that it was more of a 'we can pick off a terrorist' plan...

Kinda like the difference between being able to monitor internet traffic and detect issues that you can send a team to, and being able to send a death pulse to the keyboard of anyone that disagrees with your policy

 

[Kirby]

He's Hydra, through and through. End of story. Anything else like mind control or "only pretending to be evil" would be a total cop out

This is what I want to happen, and maybe I've see too much Star Trek, but I just expect Ward's evilness to be fake.

 

[Christopher]

Basically the Zola algorithm was the Machine from Person of Interest. So Fury thought the idea was to use it the way the government in PoI uses the Machine -- as a way of detecting "relevant" threats to national security (e.g. terrorists) and stopping (i.e. assassinating) them before they strike. Fury's an amoral enough character to be okay with using such tactics on those he considers threats to national or global security. But perhaps he failed to realize how easy it would be to subvert those tactics to more malevolent ends -- or how close he'd allowed SHIELD and himself to come to embracing HYDRA-style methods for themselves.

 

[dansigal]

Basically the Zola algorithm was the Machine from Person of Interest. So Fury thought the idea was to use it the way the government in PoI uses the Machine -- as a way of detecting "relevant" threats to national security (e.g. terrorists) and stopping (i.e. assassinating) them before they strike. Fury's an amoral enough character to be okay with using such tactics on those he considers threats to national or global security. But perhaps he failed to realize how easy it would be to subvert those tactics to more malevolent ends -- or how close he'd allowed SHIELD and himself to come to embracing HYDRA-style methods for themselves.

This! But then also taken to the next level, the way SHIELD was subverted in the first place was to generally convince good people like

Spoiler: TWS

Pierce

and probably Ward, that the ends aren't actually malevolent, only the means, and that at the end of the day, the ends justify the means.

 

[Worfmonger]

Basically the Zola algorithm was the Machine from Person of Interest. So Fury thought the idea was to use it the way the government in PoI uses the Machine -- as a way of detecting "relevant" threats to national security (e.g. terrorists) and stopping (i.e. assassinating) them before they strike. Fury's an amoral enough character to be okay with using such tactics on those he considers threats to national or global security. But perhaps he failed to realize how easy it would be to subvert those tactics to more malevolent ends -- or how close he'd allowed SHIELD and himself to come to embracing HYDRA-style methods for themselves.

I tend to agree with this.

I'm of the idea that Ward is acting with his own agenda, though. Garrett seemed to be prepping to take a bullet to the dome when Ward shot Hand and the two agents, and went from shock to elated relief in the moments afterward. It was like he wasn't at all sure what Ward would do until it was actually done.

Peace

Worfmonger

 

[Christopher]

This! But then also taken to the next level, the way SHIELD was subverted in the first place was to generally convince good people like

Spoiler: TWS

Pierce

and probably Ward, that the ends aren't actually malevolent, only the means, and that at the end of the day, the ends justify the means.

Spoiler: ditto

Pierce was hardly a dupe of HYDRA -- he was the guy running the whole operation. In fact, up until the end, I kept expecting him to be exposed as the Red Skull. He may have sincerely believed that HYDRA was needed to bring order to the world, but the Nazis believed the same thing about their party.

I'm of the idea that Ward is acting with his own agenda, though. Garrett seemed to be prepping to take a bullet to the dome when Ward shot Hand and the two agents, and went from shock to elated relief in the moments afterward. It was like he wasn't at all sure what Ward would do until it was actually done.

That's not the way it looked to me. My impression -- though I'd have to rewatch to be sure -- is that he expected it all along, and that any pretense of fear was only to keep Hand off her guard.

I mean, again, the only plausible explanation for Ward killing the fake Clairvoyant out of the blue is that it was part of Garrett's plan all along. Those excuses about his emotions running away with him because he wanted to protect Skye are obvious BS, and even Coulson wasn't convinced by them. It was an act that didn't make sense except as part of the deception. So there's no way he wasn't already working with Garrett.

 

[dansigal]

This! But then also taken to the next level, the way SHIELD was subverted in the first place was to generally convince good people like

Spoiler: TWS

Pierce

and probably Ward, that the ends aren't actually malevolent, only the means, and that at the end of the day, the ends justify the means.

Spoiler: ditto

Pierce was hardly a dupe of HYDRA -- he was the guy running the whole operation. In fact, up until the end, I kept expecting him to be exposed as the Red Skull. He may have sincerely believed that HYDRA was needed to bring order to the world, but the Nazis believed the same thing about their party.

Spoiler: more TWS stuff

Sure, by the time we get to the point we are at in the movie, Pierce is the highest ranking HYDRA/SHIELD member, but it had to start somewhere right? HYDRA had infiltrated SHIELD from the get go, so at some point, someone recruited him. I don't think he was dupe, but he was still a convert. The character was a diplomat and I believe they said a nobel peace prize winner right? So at some point he was a good dude. But then what he sees as the failure of diplomacy almost gets his daughter killed and that opens the door for this good guy to be recruited to the idea that his goals of peace need to be achieved through more aggressive means.

 

[Worfmonger]

I'm of the idea that Ward is acting with his own agenda, though. Garrett seemed to be prepping to take a bullet to the dome when Ward shot Hand and the two agents, and went from shock to elated relief in the moments afterward. It was like he wasn't at all sure what Ward would do until it was actually done.

That's not the way it looked to me. My impression -- though I'd have to rewatch to be sure -- is that he expected it all along, and that any pretense of fear was only to keep Hand off her guard.

I mean, again, the only plausible explanation for Ward killing the fake Clairvoyant out of the blue is that it was part of Garrett's plan all along. Those excuses about his emotions running away with him because he wanted to protect Skye are obvious BS, and even Coulson wasn't convinced by them. It was an act that didn't make sense except as part of the deception. So there's no way he wasn't already working with Garrett.

Could be I'm misdirecting myself, but that Ward is Hydra just seems kind of... easy, I guess. I don't feel like he's all in luuuv with Skye, that's never felt real; maybe it has something to do with her being a 084? I'm postulating, of course, but they were certainly playing up the brooding in that last scene. Something is weighing on him.

 

[Christopher]

Spoiler: more TWS stuff

The character was a diplomat and I believe they said a nobel peace prize winner right? So at some point he was a good dude. But then what he sees as the failure of diplomacy almost gets his daughter killed and that opens the door for this good guy to be recruited to the idea that his goals of peace need to be achieved through more aggressive means.

Spoiler: ditto

We don't know that his Peace Prize came before that event. Remember, the whole point of the plot is that the HYDRA agents got so far by pretending to be good guys. There was a line about how they fooled us by being our friends. So they weren't going around kicking puppies and burning down orphanages to stay in practice at being evil. They were doing all they could to establish their credentials as good guys, while secretly laying the groundwork for their eventual takeover. So Pierce's Peace Prize may have resulted from work he did as part of his cover, putting on a show of being a champion of peace in order to divert suspicion from his real agenda. In other words, your basic Villain with Good Publicity.

 

[Gryffindorian]

Adding this here (too) but it contains CA:TWS and AoS spoilers.
[yt]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vdDOhL-rC7s[/yt]

I just watched it. If I ever had any doubt over Ward's motives, it's gone now.

 

[DarKush]

Just watched "Turn, Turn, Turn". All I can say is when did Agents of SHIELD get good? The last three episodes have been entertaining in a way I couldn't say for earlier episodes. With the big betrayal I still think it's an act. I can't see the show going that hard. But if they do it at least creates some good, personal villains that the show has been sorely lacking in.

 

[Star Wolf]

I think when they got the details about The Winter Soldier and were able to really Integrate with the MCU

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Well, they got the details since basically the beginning, but, yeah, they weren't allowed to integrate it so much.

Much of the show has been about laying the groundwork for these episodes. The idea was that they needed to establish SHIELD procedurally before they tear it all down. That made each episode very stand-alone. That was part of (but not entirely) the problem.

 

[gblews]

Dollhouse did it, which coincidentally, was another Whedon show.

Who was that character?

Spoiler: Dollhouse - entire series

Boyd - Who was the main character's handler/body guard/ally for the entire two seasons of the show turned out to be the ultimate big bad of the entire series

Yes, forgot about that. But I don't think the character to whom you refer, is equal to Ward. The Dollhouse character could not have been called the show's male lead or second male lead, and definitely was not the guy who was destined to be romantically involved with the show's female lead.

But the Dollhouse producers did take a sizable risk with that move and as you stated, it certainly is no coincidence that both these show's are Whedon joints.

 

[Christopher]

Well, they got the details since basically the beginning, but, yeah, they weren't allowed to integrate it so much.

Right. Movies take much, much longer to make than TV shows. The film's script was already written when the show began production.

Much of the show has been about laying the groundwork for these episodes. The idea was that they needed to establish SHIELD procedurally before they tear it all down. That made each episode very stand-alone. That was part of (but not entirely) the problem.

Yup. In order to avoid spoiling the big secret of the film, they had to hide what they were really doing with the show, and that tied their hands somewhat. Now they're no longer operating under such restrictions and can bring their A game at last.

 

[Velocity]

Did you think that it was out of character for Hand to suddenly decide to kill Garrett? Weren't they planning to interrogate him, etc, to get useful information from him? It looks like it could have been a set up to make Garrett trust Ward. Certainly a lot of different possibilities to keep us guessing.