Arrow - Season 2

[Guy Gardener]

Lance knows Sara is Canary, that's a certainty, what's debatable is if he knows that Oliver is Green Arrow... Which a blind man should have been able to figure out after he found out Felicity worked for Bother Green Arrow and Oliver.

Oliver needs to stop being so upstanding and reliable, to maintain his cover.

The lad needs to fake fucking up, by being a ridiculous mess that could never be the Hood again before he begins to look like a candidate again.

An entire episode of just that would be astounding.

 

[Corran Horn]

There's some suspension of disbelief regarding identities inherent in watching these shows.

Always has been.

 

[JD]

This was a nice episode. Robert Knepper did a good job, but Clock King himself wasn't that interesting, I did like what it did for Felicity though. The character work in this one was the highlight. And the end was was surprising, but not unexpected. Next week's should be crazy.
I really hope we're reaching the end of Laurel's downward spiral. Some shows have been able to pull off storylines like her's and still make the character sympathetic, but, IMO at least, they're really not doing that here. They've just made her unlikeable, although some of that might come from the fact that Sara is friggin' awesome, so Laurel is just looking worse in comparison.

 

[theenglish]

The only reasons to put Alex in Central City, is if her "friend" is Barry's father (is in he in jail for his wife's murder?) or to help Barry dealing with either a Mercury problem or a Wonder Woman problem, since I don't recall any other obviously Greek themed characters connected to Flash history.

Except in the new Earth 2 series.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Should I have said "Mercury/Hermes problem"?

 

[Agent Richard07]

It's too bad Robert Knepper as the Clock King had to compete for screen time with all the character drama that was going on in the other storylines.

I liked him as the circus ringleader Samuel on NBC's Heroes.

He was better in Mob City.

I thought he was great in Stargate Universe. I especially liked how they introduced him as a background character that you barely saw and slowly built him up and gave him more screen time over several episodes. Shows don't generally do that. Unfortunately, people didn't like it.

I wonder... If The Tomorrow People gets cancelled, could they fold it into Arrow?

 

[kirk55555]

If Sara can't stay with the show, I would much rather see her in a spinoff than dead or away on some mission. She and Huntress could form 2/3 of a new Birds of Prey.

That doesn't sound like a good idea to me. I'd rather have the psychic Black Canary and Meta-human Huntress version of BoP back than see Sara and psycho Huntress team up

I didn't mention it, but I didn't really like Slade's cameo at the end. He shouldn't be some kind of secret mastermind. Slade is usually smart in his various versions, but this suit wearing revenge obsessed version is a bit of a let down. I just want to see him in costume, fighting Ollie, not playing stupid mind games with him. Giving Slade basically chemically induced insanity was a really stupid idea. Now he's just irrational (Ollie and Sara really had nothing to do with Ivo killing Shado) and kind of a generic evil mastermind psycho. I wish he'd just get into a fight with Ollie, do something that leads to Sara's "tragic" death, and then get killed or go away. He was a decent character before they made him a crazy person, and he'd be a lot better if his motivation wasn't insanity created obsession with getting revenge for something Ollie and Sara had no control over.

Also, the stuff with Sin's Dad on the island was complete BS. It was also a complete waste of time, like everything involving Sin. If nothing else, if Sara gets killed hopefully Sin will be gone too. The show would benefit from both being permanently gone, but if I had to choose just one, it would be Sin.

 

[CorporalClegg]

So basically you hate anything dramatic?

 

[Mach5]

Sin is a shitty character. Laurel is an insufferable brat. The both need to go.

Sara, on the other hand, is great. But they should be careful about not over using her.

 

[Corran Horn]

Sin isn't on enough to care about at all. I think they hit the 'Felicity' factor with Sarah - somebody who's worked out a lot better than they'd thought so they're using her more. That's why Laurel has fallen by the wayside. Character isn't working.

 

[Gaith]

I think they hit the 'Felicity' factor with Sarah - somebody who's worked out a lot better than they'd thought so they're using her more. That's why Laurel has fallen by the wayside. Character isn't working.

Felicity and Sara are both male wish fulfillment figures - one gorgeous, nerdy, socially awkward, and utterly loyal to the hero, the other gorgeous, tomboyish, socially awkward (can't even go to an intimate, long-awaited family dinner without inviting her man), and utterly loyal to the hero. So far, the writers are throwing enough story at us that they're getting away with it, but it can't last. When Sara was still running scared from the League, that made her interesting, but now that she's free, we're gonna need some new depth to her before long. Same with Felicity - last episode wasn't the first time she went rogue to after a baddie this season ("State vs. Queen", 2x7), and apart from her flirtation with Barry, she's really had zilch development all season, though I like her new interest in learning some self-defense.

Despite not being a wish fulfillment fantasy, however, Laurel remains a more complex character than either of those two. Her character's working just fine.

 

[kirk55555]

So basically you hate anything dramatic?

Dramatic doesn't equal good, and that's assuming anything I mentioned is "dramatic". Slade is just generic now, Sara is the second worst character on the show and an insult to the character, and Sin is Arrow's Jar Jar, completely useless to everything and super annoying. I do like Arrow, but it has some serious flaws, a lot of which are from poorly written characters. If Slade was more than a cliche, Sara actually had any redeeming qualities and about 1/4th the screen time, and Sin didn't exist, the show would be better than what it is.

Right now, its good. It just has potential to be great, which it hasn't lived up to yet. Hopefully Sara will be killed off and we'll see some changes. I'd like the only good live action superhero show on TV right now to do better. Its not like AoS or the upcoming Flash show have any chance of ever being even half as good as Arrow, so it would be nice if it was doing better than just ok. Still, I'm hoping arrow is just in a bit of a slump after its very good first season. Sara is almost certainly not going to last forever, so I'm sure by the end of the season we'll at least have her and Slade gone, which will hopefully make way for cool things.

 

[Corran Horn]

Despite not being a wish fulfillment fantasy, however, Laurel remains a more complex character than either of those two. Her character's working just fine.

Not a wish fulfillment fantasy? Can you imagine cheating on your girlfriend with her sister, indirectly killing her, and then your girlfriend eventually takes you back? (while dating your best friend here and there) Laurel's character could be bent that way easily.

The problem is she's scattershot. They can't decide what to do with her so the character has behaved erratically.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

We've been watching the Laurel train wreck all season now. I say let her hit rock bottom sooner rather than later and get back to building her towards the heroics they had already laid the foundation for last year.

Mark

 

[sojourner]

Pretty sure her showing up at the AA meeting at the end is a sign that she has passed rock bottom.

 

[Gaith]

^ Yeah, being encouraged to drink and further wreck your life by one of your best friends is not a great place to be.

Not a wish fulfillment fantasy? Can you imagine cheating on your girlfriend with her sister, indirectly killing her, and then your girlfriend eventually takes you back? (while dating your best friend here and there) Laurel's character could be bent that way easily.

For every moment of closeness between Laurel and Oliver, there's at least one moment where she's pissed at him. Besides, it's important to make a distinction between the narratives of melodrama and basic character personas. Laurel's life revolves around her legal career, interest in bettering her community, her personal issues and failings, her family and Tommy/Tommy's memory rather more than her intermittent relationship with Ollie. Felicity's life, on the other hand, revolves around gadgets and Ollie, and Sara's life revolves around survival and Ollie. Hence the biggus wish-fulfillment gappus between Laurel and the Team Arrow women.

The problem is she's scattershot. They can't decide what to do with her so the character has behaved erratically.

And it's completely inconceivable that they writers have decided to have her behave erratically for a while?

 

[Corran Horn]

^ Yeah, being encouraged to drink and further wreck your life by one of your best friends is not a great place to be.

Not a wish fulfillment fantasy? Can you imagine cheating on your girlfriend with her sister, indirectly killing her, and then your girlfriend eventually takes you back? (while dating your best friend here and there) Laurel's character could be bent that way easily.

For every moment of closeness between Laurel and Oliver, there's at least one moment where she's pissed at him. Besides, it's important to make a distinction between the narratives of melodrama and basic character personas. Laurel's life revolves around her legal career, interest in bettering her community, her personal issues and failings, her family and Tommy/Tommy's memory rather more than her intermittent relationship with Ollie. Felicity's life, on the other hand, revolves around gadgets and Ollie, and Sara's life revolves around survival and Ollie. Hence the biggus wish-fulfillment gappus between Laurel and the Team Arrow women.

I'd say you're cheapening out on Sara and Felicity and making Laurel more complex than she is to make your point. Being a crusader for the little guy went away when she left the pro bono practice or legal aid practice and her legal career in total went away because she was a little too 'Ollie' in the 'Law and Ollie' dichotomy and lost her job due to her drug use. That could be blamed on Tommy's death but she sure got with Ollie while Tommy was still alive.

The problem is she's scattershot. They can't decide what to do with her so the character has behaved erratically.

And it's completely inconceivable that they writers have decided to have her behave erratically for a while?

Of course it's not inconceivable, but her screen time has taken a hit to the benefit of other actors/characters as well. Thea's the same way, really.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Laurel hates Oliver so perfectly that the only thing that could possibly make that hate whiter or hotter is that Slade Wilson tells her that he killed Tommy as he takes Laurel into his arms and kisses her.

 

[LaxScrutiny]

^ Yeah, being encouraged to drink and further wreck your life by one of your best friends is not a great place to be.


For every moment of closeness between Laurel and Oliver, there's at least one moment where she's pissed at him. Besides, it's important to make a distinction between the narratives of melodrama and basic character personas. Laurel's life revolves around her legal career, interest in bettering her community, her personal issues and failings, her family and Tommy/Tommy's memory rather more than her intermittent relationship with Ollie. Felicity's life, on the other hand, revolves around gadgets and Ollie, and Sara's life revolves around survival and Ollie. Hence the biggus wish-fulfillment gappus between Laurel and the Team Arrow women.

While I take your point, I have known hundreds of perfectly ordinary people like Laurel who are living perfectly ordinary lives filled with perfectly ordinary drama like dating their ex's friend. Many of them are also substance abusers. None of them have become superheroes.

Sara is a female Ollie. Any criticism you might level at her might just as easily be said about Ollie. Either one could carry the show as a superhero, because they are both marginalized. Because of their experience they will never be socialized like everyone else. Felicity is the same. Diggle is, almost strangely, the hardest to believe. If he can be a superhero - not that he is, but he is a team mate - then any ex soldier or ex cop could be. And the real world shows us that ex soldiers and ex cops don't regularly become superheroes. He is great because he gives us a benchmark to show that Ollie - and Sara - are different than anyone we encounter in real life.

Laurel is at the opposite of the spectrum. She is socialized like everyone else, to the point that she is a stereotype of the 20-something working girl professional who just got fired and doesn't have a boyfriend. She could be on Sex in the City.

 

[Mach5]

Laurel hates Oliver so perfectly that the only thing that could possibly make that hate whiter or hotter is that Slade Wilson tells her that he killed Tommy as he takes Laurel into his arms and kisses her.

Yeah, I'd prefer if they just killed her off...