My Grievances of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

I clarified that for you and you got all snarky in response.

Then I'm pleased to have the opportunity to confirm that I wasn't attempting snark or to accuse you of anything. Just musing, is all.

 

[UFO]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

.

Nerys, however, claims that all their commissions were "activated" at some point in the proceedings. Maybe that's true, if so I certainly missed it.

That would be the part where they're all assigned ships and change into active duty uniforms.
...

All except for Kirk of course, who was on academic suspension. So why was he commissioned? Computer glitch? Oversight?

Anyway (on the assumption the commissioning could be seen as defending Kirk's promotion, even if not intended to) in my view, the point is not that we can call any flower a rose. The question is whether it "smells as sweet". I.e. Substance over style surely applies, meaning that calling Kirk a Lt. doesn't add anything to his qualifications. So in my view it doesn't make things better.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Right again! Believability was not about slavish adherence to minutiae. Not that we've been discussing any such thing.

In universe, there is nothing to me that is out of place in the promotion of Jim Kirk to Captain. I've seen a Starfleet that has done many, many things that kill any attempt to try and compare it to a modern military.

It's not the way I would've handled it had I been writing, but I'm not the one writing the Trek films and it didn't hamper my enjoyment of the Abrams films.

But how many times have you seen Starfleet promote an officer 2+ ranks above their current position (let alone an officer who is technically still a cadet)?

And, to complete the comparison, how many times have you seen Starfleet officers save Earth, or any other heavily inhabited planet (all of which should be pretty much equally important to the Federation)?

Now tell me again how this seems entirely in character for Starfleet.

And, on a more general note, since this topic seems to have moved entirely away from what we were talking about yesterday, I would still really love to see an answer from someone to this question:

How does a theoretical increased militarization of Starfleet as a result of the Kelvin attack result in a promotion policy which is actually far less believable militarily than anything Starfleet has ever been shown to do before?

 

[Set Harth]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

(all of which should be pretty much equally important to the Federation)

But, in practice, really wouldn't be.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

(all of which should be pretty much equally important to the Federation)

But, in practice, really wouldn't be.

Maybe not. But at least a few planets other than Earth would be (like Vulcan - which Kirk didn't save...). And ST09 still isn't at all the first time Starfleet officers have saved Earth - but it is the first time they've ever received such an over the top reward for doing so. It doesn't fit the idea of what Starfleet has always been, plain and simple. Comparisons to the real world are entirely beside the point.

 

[starburst]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

.

Nerys, however, claims that all their commissions were "activated" at some point in the proceedings. Maybe that's true, if so I certainly missed it.

That would be the part where they're all assigned ships and change into active duty uniforms.
...

All except for Kirk of course, who was on academic suspension. So why was he commissioned? Computer glitch? Oversight?

I always took it to be when Pike made him First Officer, he (or possibly even Spock) activated his Starfleet commission and gave him the battlefield rank of Lt.

It seems likely he, like Uhura and possibly Sulu depending on if he was a Cadet before, were in line to become Lieutenants when the graduated.

So Lt to Captain is less of a jump than from Cadet, its still a big jump though.

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

So Lt to Captain is less of a jump than from Cadet, its still a big jump though.

UFO does have it right, though, that the formalities of rank in which we got caught up yesterday probably matter a lot less than the actualities of qualification. The original Kirk had a chance to prove himself in something like an actual career; the rebooted version is simply impelled into the chair because of reasons.

 

[BillJ]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

So Lt to Captain is less of a jump than from Cadet, its still a big jump though.

UFO does have it right, though, that the formalities of rank in which we got caught up yesterday probably matter a lot less than the actualities of qualification. The original Kirk had a chance to prove himself in something like an actual career; the rebooted version is simply impelled into the chair because of reasons.

Just like Prime Jim Kirk got put back in the chair instead of going to prison because of reasons.

Seems like Starfleet has a lot of leeway for people who save the planet.

 

[Opus]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Seems like Starfleet has a lot of leeway for people who save the planet.

And considering Starfleet is not a straight military organization, but a quasi-military/civilian defensive, exploration and colonization arm of The Federation, it would make sense that there is such leeway, both in the Prime Universe as well as the nuVerse.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Just like Prime Jim Kirk got put back in the chair instead of going to prison because of reasons.

Seems like Starfleet has a lot of leeway for people who save the planet.

Starfleet's always had lots of leeway for not punishing people. Wasn't Spock's joyride to Talos iv in the Menagerie supposed to be a capital crime? But he didn't even get an official reprimand, because giving Pike a good retirement was enough of a good cause to nullify Federation law. So of course saving earth will be a good way to not be punished for something. And that's only one of many examples.

But if that leeway goes the other way, too, where was Picard's promotion for saving earth in FC or Nemesis? Or Riker's promotion for BOBW? Or Janeway's for Dark Frontier? Even in the middle of the Dominion war, while captains were dropping like flies and officers were performing rather amazing and unusually independent acts on a regular basis, we saw relatively few promotions.

 

[Opus]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

But if that leeway goes the other way, too, where was Picard's promotion for saving earth in FC or Nemesis?

I assume Picard chose to stay on Ent-E.

Or Riker's promotion for BOBW?

Shelby to Riker: "I'm sure you'll have a choice of any command in the fleet."

Riker had already turned down command twice. I assume he held off again until The Titan came available.

Or Janeway's for Dark Frontier?

Consider they were in The Delta Quadrant for quite a time. No advancement in rank when you're already the highest ranking office on the only ship. Also, she was promoted over Picard to Admiral as seen in NEM.

Even in the middle of the Dominion war, while captains were dropping like flies and officers were performing rather amazing and unusually independent acts on a regular basis, we saw relatively few promotions.

We did, although Sisko was promoted off Defiant, Dax was made Captain of Defiant, Worf was made first officer aboard Martok's ship. All temporary of course, but why? Simply put - The story overrides the "realistic". What good is it for a show that is meant to entertain having their main characters scattered across the galaxy aboard different ships and starbases under different commands?

It doesn't.

Same goes with Abramss and Orci's choices in nuTrek. I don't care about Prime Universe' command track for Kirk. I don't care that he served aboard Lexington as an Ensign, or shuffled papers at Starbase 12, or taught courses at Starfleet Academy as a Lt. You know what? That's BORING!

I like that this Universe took these young people and slammed them together during dire circumstances and now have to learn to work together in a baptism by fire to become the characters we know. I like it because it's interesting, it's different, and dang it - IT'S FUN!

Now if not following policy and procedure doesn't do it for ya', that's fine. Not every bit of Trek is my cup o' tea either. But remember, nuTrek isn't doing anything as unorthodox as any other Trek that has come before it. Different - YES. As unorthodox - NO.

 

[Sindatur]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Just like Prime Jim Kirk got put back in the chair instead of going to prison because of reasons.

Seems like Starfleet has a lot of leeway for people who save the planet.

Starfleet's always had lots of leeway for not punishing people. Wasn't Spock's joyride to Talos iv in the Menagerie supposed to be a capital crime? But he didn't even get an official reprimand, because giving Pike a good retirement was enough of a good cause to nullify Federation law. So of course saving earth will be a good way to not be punished for something. And that's only one of many examples.

But if that leeway goes the other way, too, where was Picard's promotion for saving earth in FC or Nemesis? Or Riker's promotion for BOBW? Or Janeway's for Dark Frontier? Even in the middle of the Dominion war, while captains were dropping like flies and officers were performing rather amazing and unusually independent acts on a regular basis, we saw relatively few promotions.

Picard had no interest in being an Admiral, he was happy Captaining the Enterprise, so, that wouldn't have been considered a reward.

Riker was offered Captaincy several times and refused, during the Series, the only ship he was interested in Captaining was Enterprise.

Janeway was made Admiral shortly after her return the Delta Quadrant, wasn't she? And really, she did a lot of stuff that would merit punishment, so...

And, really, promotions, like Warp speed go at the speed of plot

 

[BillJ]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Same goes with Abramss and Orci's choices in nuTrek. I don't care about Prime Universe' command track for Kirk. I don't care that he served aboard Lexington as an Ensign, or shuffled papers at Starbase 12, or taught courses at Starfleet Academy as a Lt. You know what? That's BORING!

I like that this Universe took these young people and slammed them together during dire circumstances and now have to learn to work together in a baptism by fire to become the characters we know. I like it because it's interesting, it's different, and dang it - IT'S FUN!

Now if not following policy and procedure doesn't do it for ya', that's fine. Not every bit of Trek is my cup o' tea either. But remember, nuTrek isn't doing anything as unorthodox as any other Trek that has come before it. Different - YES. As unorthodox - NO.

In the Prime Universe, Kirk went from Captain to Admiral to Captain to Admiral to Captain. Not exactly believable.

From "mailroom to boardroom" has been a Hollywood staple since the beginning and even though I might have handled things differently, Orci and Kurtzman picked a valid storytelling device.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

We did, although Sisko was promoted off Defiant, Dax was made Captain of Defiant, Worf was made first officer aboard Martok's ship. All temporary of course, but why? Simply put - The story overrides the "realistic".

Again, I'm not talking about realism. I'm talking about precedent. About the basic way Starfleet has been shown to operate - which is, specifically, wildly unrealistic in terms of punishment, but a great deal less so in terms of promotion.

And Dax commanding the Defiant was specifically one of the examples I had in mind when I mentioned officers operating highly succesfully with an unusual degree of independence *without* ever being promoted. Sisko and Worf weren't actually promoted, either. Kira was, very close to the end of the war. Without having done any great spectacular action beforehand.

Same goes with Abramss and Orci's choices in nuTrek. I don't care about Prime Universe' command track for Kirk. I don't care that he served aboard Lexington as an Ensign, or shuffled papers at Starbase 12, or taught courses at Starfleet Academy as a Lt. You know what? That's BORING!

And i've never once asked for a movie centered on that. There were more options available than just 'Mind numbing realism' and 'wildly uncharacteristic chaos'.

I like that this Universe took these young people and slammed them together during dire circumstances and now have to learn to work together in a baptism by fire to become the characters we know. I like it because it's interesting, it's different, and dang it - IT'S FUN!

The movie is reasonably fun. It has a sense of humor that a lot of other trek lacked. But there's no reason to think it couldn't have been made both fun *and* believable.

If it were totally new trek, just cut all ties and create a new universe, I wouldn't argue this point at all. But they didn't want to do that. They specifically bent over backwards to prove the nuTrek Federation is exactly the same as the old Federation, with just minor changes, and then ended the movie with a promotion that never would've happened in the old Federation, a promotion that the story never bothered to earn because: 'He's Kirk! Of course he must be captain! Screw logic!'

 

[Opus]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

In the Prime Universe, Kirk went from Captain to Admiral to Captain to Admiral to Captain. Not exactly believable.

Great point.

TMP we have Kirk in conflict about his career and his life. His passion is command, his love is Enterprise. A crisis allows him the opportunity to get his command back, and he takes a reduction in rank to Captain. At the end of the movie, he's firmly established as her captain again.

Buuuuut....

By the next movie, here he is, an admiral again, in conflict about his career and his life. His passion is command, his love is Enterprise...

Wash, Rinse, Repeat? WTF?

Then, by certain unmitigated circumstances, he gets reduced in rank to Captain (again) and is given a squeaky clean nuEnterprise for his troubles. By the President of The Federation, of all people (I thought Starfleet was military, thus should have been a courtmartial, but anywho...)

People don't like the "Prime Universe Did It Too" argument. Too bad. You can't hold nuTrek to a standard Prime Universe Trek NEVER HELD.

 

[BillJ]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Again, I'm not talking about realism. I'm talking about precedent. About the basic way Starfleet has been shown to operate - which is, specifically, wildly unrealistic in terms of punishment, but a great deal less so in terms of promotion.

Show me another junior officer who saved the homeworld of the Federation from a futuristic madman who was treated differently then we'll talk.

'He's Kirk! Of course he must be captain! Screw logic!'

Well, I don't find it all that illogical since Hollywood has been telling variations of "from the mailroom to the boardroom" since the beginning.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Well, to be fair, they did try to find reasons.

There was lots of in-universe time between TMP and TWOK. In spite of Kirk's intentions, in the service, you go where you're told. Apparently going back to the admiralty was one of those things.

The "demotion" was his reward. He stayed a captain until his died.

It's not so much "they did it here too" as "they tried to have it make sense here." With the apparent removal of the commodore rank, Admiral of some level was the next step up from Captain. One step.

When compared to a cadet on academic probation being leapfrogged to Captain of the newest and niftiest ship in the fleet over a bunch of other, more experienced and mature people because Spock saved Earth, it sticks out. And Spock did the real heavy lifting in saving Earth and defeating Nero. All Kirk did was save Pike and say "you got it" before firing at an already dying ship. Kirk could have sat in his chair, backed the Enterprise out and ate pudding while watching Nero slide into the singularity.

Anyway, since it was addressed and made into a major lot point in the follow up, I don't care anymore. Because it was like they said "yeah, that was kinda weird, so let's talk about it." Good. Well played. Into Darkness was, for me, the much better film and a shitload of fun.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Show me another junior officer who saved the homeworld of the Federation from a futuristic madman who was treated differently then we'll talk.

Ensign Wesley Crusher and Ensign Robin Lefler saved the Federation from an alien takeover (TNG The Game). I believe their reward was... a pat on the back?

'He's Kirk! Of course he must be captain! Screw logic!'

Well, I don't find it all that illogical since Hollywood has been telling variations of "from the mailroom to the boardroom" since the beginning.

Which is great when the world the story takes place in is either brand new or clearly understand to be the kind of world where that sort of thing happens. When it's a pre-existing world where that sort of thing has never happened before, it has to be earned.

 

[BillJ]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Which is great when the world the story takes place in is either brand new or clearly understand to be the kind of world where that sort of thing happens. When it's a pre-existing world where that sort of thing has never happened before, it has to be earned.

This is just non-sense. It's a story about a young hotshot becoming a leader. Just because Star Trek has never told that type of story before doesn't mean it is somehow forbidden from doing so now.

I haven't seen The Game in many, many years but I'm pretty sure they saved the Enterprise not the Federation. I was going to look at the transcript but Chrissie's website seems to be down right now.

 

[Cyke101]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Well, I don't find it all that illogical since Hollywood has been telling variations of "from the mailroom to the boardroom" since the beginning.

This might be a stretch on my part, but this point reminds me of Arrested Development and, in a way, TVH, where it's the reverse -- a Riches to Rags story, while TVH is Admiral Kirk who can't quite use his authority outside of his crew because it's a different time. He has to depend on a rustbucket instead of his trusty, powerful Enterprise. His crew faces the thread of jail time and ultimately Kirk even gets demoted in the process. To me, both AD and TVH are very enjoyable because they're both essentially fish out of water stories that happen in very rapid succession.

Okay, brainfart over. You may continue with the thread