My Grievances of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

What set Trek apart from other shows at the time was the fact that it was really the first "adult" sci-fi drama with a regular set of characters and the chemistry between Shatner, Nimoy and Kelly.

And what do you suppose might have made it seem like a relatively "adult" sci-fi drama?

 

[BillJ]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

What set Trek apart from other shows at the time was the fact that it was really the first "adult" sci-fi drama with a regular set of characters and the chemistry between Shatner, Nimoy and Kelly.

And what do you suppose might have made it seem like a relatively "adult" sci-fi drama?

Umm... the themes of the show. Not slavish adherence to military minutiae that no one cares about. People love to get lost in drama, not minutiae.

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Umm... the themes of the show.

Which was the exploration of space by a broadly believable semi-military organization, with a Captain modelled after Horatio Hornblower.

Not slavish adherence to military minutiae that no one cares about

Right again! Believability was not about slavish adherence to minutiae. Not that we've been discussing any such thing. If someone comes along to tell you that the Enterprise didn't have enough noncoms or technically correct Naval salutes, you should feel free to tell them they're wrong.

 

[BillJ]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Right again! Believability was not about slavish adherence to minutiae. Not that we've been discussing any such thing.

In universe, there is nothing to me that is out of place in the promotion of Jim Kirk to Captain. I've seen a Starfleet that has done many, many things that kill any attempt to try and compare it to a modern military.

It's not the way I would've handled it had I been writing, but I'm not the one writing the Trek films and it didn't hamper my enjoyment of the Abrams films.

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

In universe, there is nothing to me that is out of place in the promotion of Jim Kirk to Captain.

While it sort of seems to me like you're contradicting yourself, here, we all contain multitudes. If it didn't bother you, that's your business! That is perfectly cool by me.

How many times have I "left" this thread, now. This time, really! I'm really going.

 

[BillJ]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Which was the exploration of space by a broadly believable semi-military organization, with a Captain modelled after Horatio Hornblower.

And this is, quite frankly, wrong.

Star Trek would've never existed if Roddenberry had lived in a time where he could write about things like war and poverty and racial tensions without being censored.

It was the exploration of us.

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

It was the exploration of us.

That too, indisputably.

 

[Maurice]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Star Trek would've never existed if Roddenberry had lived in a time where he could write about things like war and poverty and racial tensions without being censored.

Roddenberry paid lip service to to this, but the show itself doesn't contain very much of it, there are contemporary shows which were even more progressive (I Spy for one), and I suspect Gene was exaggerating this aspect in retrospect because it made for good theater.

 

[M'Sharak]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

I apologize that the facts don't agree with your interpretation of Star Trek.

I dub you Commander Burns, on account of all the burnage.

The dancing is rather cute, though

Oh, the irony.

You, my friend, are instantly promoted to Captain Zinger. You're way better than that Burns guy.

Just refer to them by the usernames which appear at the upper left of each of their posts, if you would. That will be entirely satisfactory.

And the rest of the little digs can stop, as well - on the part of all to whom that applies. If this topic has been so thoroughly exhausted that discussion has been reduced to taking petty swipes at each other, then it might be high time to move on to a more productive one.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Actually, one of the best innovations of the original Trek was the commitment to making the human institutions involved believable to a contemporary audience.

Original TOS - and even original TNG fans - are probably not the "contemporary audience" of the Bad Robot films. At least we are not the core demographic the films are aimed at. "This is not your father's Star Trek".

It was permissible to extrapolate, but the ideal was not to have people behave in completely unbelievable ways for an audience today and then say "Well, it's science fiction." It was one of many smart Trek ideas that helped differentiate the show from the pure camp that went before it and that the NuTrek version of the franchise has forgotten.

Any worse than the actions of Captain Garth, Captain Tracy, Dr Tristan Adams, Admiral Cartwright, Lieutenant Valeris, Admiral Dougherty, Admiral Pressman, Admiral Satie, Admiral Leyton...?

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Original TOS - and even original TNG fans - are probably not the "contemporary audience" of the Bad Robot films.

You may want to re-read what you're replying to for context. I'm having trouble make sense of this as a response.

Any worse than the actions of Captain Garth, Captain Tracy, Dr Tristan Adams, Admiral Cartwright, Lieutenant Valeris, Admiral Dougherty, Admiral Pressman, Admiral Satie, Admiral Leyton...?

None of the actions of any of these characters are comparable in any way to the example you're replying to? Are you perhaps cross-posting from the Admiral Marcus thread by accident? Honest question.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

So what exactly is the problem here?

That battlefield promotions tend to happen with commissioned officers and not cadets? I thought you knew what kind of "believability" we were talking about here.

Okay, really going.

Kirk's entire graduating class had their commissions activated because of the Vulcan Crisis, including Kirk who is listed as a Lieutenant.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Umm... the themes of the show.

Which was the exploration of space by a broadly believable semi-military organization, with a Captain modelled after Horatio Hornblower.

No, that was part of the setting. The theme was exploring the issues facing modern humanity in SF setting.( which would allow for more freedom that setting it currently) The space ship, aliens and technology was just a frame to hang that on.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Sorry, were either of your examples actually promoted to the rank of Captain? And were they so from the rank of cadet? Your question answers itself.

"Cadet" is not a rank. Cadet Saavik (ST II) and Cadet Kirk (2009) were lieutenants. We've been through this already.

(Mmmm, the board took me back to a much earlier point than my last post, so maybe that's why I'm seeing this point again.)

None of the actions of any of these characters are comparable in any way to the example you're replying to? Are you perhaps cross-posting from the Admiral Marcus thread by accident? Honest question.

I am replying to the comment "the ideal was not to have people behave in completely unbelievable ways for an audience today and then say 'Well, it's science fiction'."

The theme was exploring the issues facing modern humanity in SF setting.

Yep! In a continuing series, using the futuristic setting to escape the TV censors, as already demonstrated by one-off stories in "The Twilight Zone".

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

"Cadet" is not a rank.

Right. It's a category of trainee that doesn't get promoted to command flagships right out of the gate. We have indeed been through this already.

Nerys, however, claims that all their commissions were "activated" at some point in the proceedings. Maybe that's true, if so I certainly missed it.

I am replying to the comment "the ideal was not to have people behave in completely unbelievable ways for an audience today and then say 'Well, it's science fiction'."

Really? I thought that's what your previous comment about "this isn't your father's Trek" was supposed to be responding to? (Which was confusing in its own right, since you must surely realize that if believability were this funky thing for old people that went out of fashion forty years ago and has no relevance for SF today, you would never have conversations like this?)

I don't see how the list of characters you provided has anything to do with people behaving in completely unbelievable ways either, the reason I asked about the Admiral Marcus thread is that your reply would only be relevant if I were one of the people attacking Admiral Marcus as an unbelievable character. It has nothing to do with anything I've said here.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

.

Nerys, however, claims that all their commissions were "activated" at some point in the proceedings. Maybe that's true, if so I certainly missed it.

That would be the part where they're all assigned ships and change into active duty uniforms.

There is an somewhat ambiguous line in WNMHGB that implies Prime Kirk held the rank of Lieutenant while at the Academy/

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Right. So that... sort of helps, I guess? Getting the cap's chair a couple of days from graduation as a battlefield promotion is... kind of? More believable? By a bit?

I guess that at least puts it in just the same category of silliness as "demoting" Kirk to the role "for which he has shown unswerving ability" in STIV, if that floats one's boat. Sure.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Right. So that... sort of helps, I guess? Getting the cap's chair a couple of days from graduation as a battlefield promotion is... kind of? More believable? By a bit?

I guess that at least puts it in just the same category of silliness as "demoting" Kirk to the role "for which he has shown unswerving ability" in STIV, if that floats one's boat. Sure.

Talking about the commissions, not the promotion. Not every post is about that.

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Talking about the commissions, not the promotion. Not every post is about that.

Well, since I was talking about the commissions in relation to the promotions, I hope you won't mind too much my referencing the original context.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Talking about the commissions, not the promotion. Not every post is about that.

Well, since I was talking about the commissions in relation to the promotions, I hope you won't mind too much my referencing the original context.

Since you phrased it like I was trying to use it in support the idea of the promotion, yeah I do mind.

The part of your post I quoted was about the commissions and when they happened. I clarified that for you and you got all snarky in response.