My Grievances of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

[BillJ]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Captains in the actual American navy on which Starfleet was modeled have won battlefield commissions to Captain at ages as young as 25.

And the Abramsverse Kirk is 25 when he takes command of the Enterprise after undertaking actions that went above and beyond the call of duty. So what exactly is the problem here?

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

The dancing is rather cute, though

Oh, the irony.

You, my friend, are instantly promoted to Captain Zinger. You're way better than that Burns guy.

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

So what exactly is the problem here?

That battlefield promotions tend to happen with commissioned officers and not cadets? I thought you knew what kind of "believability" we were talking about here.

Okay, really going.

 

[Opus]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

So you say this...

Captains in the actual American navy on which Starfleet was modeled have won battlefield commissions to Captain at ages as young as 25. So it is possible that Kirk could have leapfrogged some ranks that way.

But then you say this...

by contrast with what happens at the end of the 2009 film.

So Kirk defeats a crazed Romulan with a supership and a magic lava lamp of black hole creating redness, leads an away mission onto said ship that saves Pike and earth, and you don't think, you all by yerself, don't think that would be worthy of a battlefield commission. As young as age 25. You said yourself. In the same post.

 

[Opus]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

The dancing is rather cute, though

Oh, the irony.

You, my friend, are instantly promoted to Captain Zinger. You're way better than that Burns guy.

Oooo! A promotion!

Must be a battlefield commission.

Thank you!

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

You said yourself. In the same post.

The real-life examples I was talking about were not promotions of cadets. I honestly don't understand what you're finding hard to grasp about that.

 

[Opus]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Kirk was a Lt.

He was also made First Officer by Pike. I guess that's a battlefield commission.

 

[BillJ]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

So what exactly is the problem here?

That battlefield promotions tend to happen with commissioned officers and not cadets? I thought you knew what kind of "believability" we were talking about here.

Okay, really going.

Kirk was a commissioned officer since he carries the rank of Lieutenant.

Look, I had a problem with Cadet-to-Captain as well. I'd have rather had him been a disgraced Lt. Commander (I believe it was a poster named Kelso who first came up with that angle) but to say it somehow was a problem because Trek was always believable (or even tried to be) when it came to how it portrayed Starfleet is just plain non-sense.

I don't believe in holding one form of Trek to a standard that I don't hold other forms of Trek to.

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Look, I had a problem with Cadet-to-Captain as well. . .

Thank you.

but to say it somehow was a problem because Trek was always believable (or even tried to be) when it came to how it portrayed Starfleet is just plain non-sense.

Good thing that isn't what I said.

 

[Opus]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

I don't believe in holding one form of Trek to a standard that I don't hold other forms of Trek to.

Nor has Trek ever held to itself.

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Kirk was a Lt.

A cadet officer, not a commissioned officer. Cadets have officer ranks, they are not commissions.

 

[BillJ]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Look, I had a problem with Cadet-to-Captain as well. . .

Thank you.

but to say it somehow was a problem because Trek was always believable (or even tried to be) when it came to how it portrayed Starfleet is just plain non-sense.

Good thing that isn't what I said.

My mistake...

Actually, one of the best innovations of the original Trek was the commitment to making the human institutions involved believable to a contemporary audience. It was permissible to extrapolate, but the ideal was not to have people behave in completely unbelievable ways for an audience today and then say "Well, it's science fiction." It was one of many smart Trek ideas that helped differentiate the show from the pure camp that went before it and that the NuTrek version of the franchise has forgotten.

...I thought this was from one of your posts.

 

[BillJ]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Kirk was a Lt.

A cadet officer, not a commissioned officer. Cadets have officer ranks, they are not commissions.

Do you have any actual proof of this or is it another interpretation?

Someone else wanna shot a hole in this? I'm getting tired of typing!

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

I thought this was from one of your posts.

It is. Notice how it says "the ideal was"? I have never said the ideal was perfectly adhered to, just that it was stronger in the best of Trek and weaker in the worst of Trek. I get that it's more satisfying to pretend that you're arguing against some extremist position, but one might say with all due respect that it is rather bad form.

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Do you have any actual proof of this or is it another interpretation?

Far as I remember, he's clearly stated to be a cadet from the outset, is not promoted beyond cadet before the battle with Nero, and is promoted from cadet to captain at the end of the film. So, it's a recollection of what the film says. If I'm mistaken or missed a point in the film, then by all means correct me, but I don't think I have and I think you're still dancing. Especially given that you yourself have already admitted the cadet-to-captain things was a problem. (Poor performance, Commander Burns, I think we shall have to demote you.)

 

[BillJ]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

I thought this was from one of your posts.

It is. Notice how it says "the ideal was"? I have never said the ideal was perfectly adhered to, just that it was stronger in the best of Trek and weaker in the worst of Trek. I get that it's more satisfying to pretend that you're arguing against some extremist position, but one might say with all due respect that it is rather bad form.

It doesn't matter what the "ideal" was. What matters was what we actually got on the screen. And on screen we got a Starfleet that acted however the story needed it to act, not one that acted like a real military.

You're holding Abrams and Company to a different standard than the TOS gang and those who came afterward. It's okay, but at least admit that's what you are doing.

 

[BillJ]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Do you have any actual proof of this or is it another interpretation?

Far as I remember, he's clearly stated to be a cadet from the outset, is not promoted beyond cadet before the battle with Nero...

So, no?

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

It doesn't matter what the "ideal" was.

I respectfully disagree. The existence of the ideal made a real difference to what got on the screen, whatever its imperfections, and genuinely did set Trek off from prior televised SF. You are of course free to disagree with this, but again, it's hard to see how doing so particularly bolsters your credibility as a rational judge of TOS' flaws, of what's believable and what isn't.

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

So, no?

So, claiming that I have no proof about the content of the film except the content of the film is your angle?

Admiral Burns, you magnificent bastard. Captain Zinger is starting to look like his career is standing still.

 

[BillJ]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

...genuinely did set Trek off from prior televised SF...

What set Trek apart from other shows at the time was the fact that it was really the first "adult" sci-fi drama with a regular set of characters and the chemistry between Shatner, Nimoy and Kelly.

I'm not sure I know of any one that watches a military show or a cop show or a medical show because of how closely it resembles the organizations or practices that make up the background.