My Grievances of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
- Thread starter Mycroft Maxwell
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
Well, you see, Starfleet has this great "buy-back" program that would have allowed Wes to count that year as Ensign, and perhaps also those other two years as "Acting Ensign", toward his retirement.
Had NEM been successful at the box office, Berman's next TNG movie outing would have had a detailed description of this program, including many graphs and schedules, and an energy being threatening to destroy earth.
Well, you see, Starfleet has this great "buy-back" program that would have allowed Wes to count that year as Ensign, and perhaps also those other two years as "Acting Ensign", toward his retirement.
Had NEM been successful at the box office, Berman's next TNG movie outing would have had a detailed description of this program, including many graphs and schedules, and an energy being threatening to destroy earth.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
Riveting! Why can't JJ make a movie like that?
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
True, but rational methodologies are likely to remain similar in any conceivable universe however unrealistic it might be in other ways, I would think.
I would suggest that there is no fictional universe where an organisation that behaved like ST09 Starfleet on a regular basis can hope to survive. Not unless activities in that entire universe are always based on luck and attempting to act rationally regarding its policies would be of no advantage. Even in true works of fantasy I don’t think that has ever been the case.
If however, you mean that in special situations they just decide to take the risk on promoting people like Kirk etc, I think that cultural peculiarity should be mentioned in the story so the audience knows they aren't completely insane.
Your point about leniency in ST in general may be valid, but I don’t think even in real life, it would be realistic to imprison Prime Kirk if he did the equivalent of saving the Earth.
True. I guess I was throwing a bone to our esteemed adversaries. They do seem surprisingly hungry for people who keep claiming they have already eaten.
It doesn't matter how legendary he might have been in another life, or might become in the current one if, through his present lack of training, he makes a bad call and loses the Enterprise, or worse.
The whole movie was doing that. But it still shouldn't have changed Starfleet's mind unless Spock also bribed them!
At least you can't say he didn't have on the job training. Better too much training than to little.
True, but rational methodologies are likely to remain similar in any conceivable universe however unrealistic it might be in other ways, I would think.
I would suggest that there is no fictional universe where an organisation that behaved like ST09 Starfleet on a regular basis can hope to survive. Not unless activities in that entire universe are always based on luck and attempting to act rationally regarding its policies would be of no advantage. Even in true works of fantasy I don’t think that has ever been the case.
If however, you mean that in special situations they just decide to take the risk on promoting people like Kirk etc, I think that cultural peculiarity should be mentioned in the story so the audience knows they aren't completely insane.
Your point about leniency in ST in general may be valid, but I don’t think even in real life, it would be realistic to imprison Prime Kirk if he did the equivalent of saving the Earth.
True. I guess I was throwing a bone to our esteemed adversaries. They do seem surprisingly hungry for people who keep claiming they have already eaten.
It doesn't matter how legendary he might have been in another life, or might become in the current one if, through his present lack of training, he makes a bad call and loses the Enterprise, or worse.
The whole movie was doing that. But it still shouldn't have changed Starfleet's mind unless Spock also bribed them!
At least you can't say he didn't have on the job training. Better too much training than to little.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
Yet Starfleet wanted him to start at the bottom.
At least you can't say he didn't have on the job training. Better too much training than to little.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
Damned bureaucrats! Where were they in the nuVerse when we needed them?
Yet Starfleet wanted him to start at the bottom.At least you can't say he didn't have on the job training. Better too much training than too little.
Damned bureaucrats! Where were they in the nuVerse when we needed them?
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
Warning for trolling. Comments to PM.
And after cautions to all in several currently-running threads (including this very one) about refraining from baiting and/or taking swipes at fans or fan groups with whom one might not agree... I am disappointed. I'm quite sure too, UFO, that I've spoken to you directly about this sort of thing before, and on more than one occasion.
True. I guess I was throwing a bone to our esteemed adversaries. They do seem surprisingly hungry for people who keep claiming they have already eaten.
Warning for trolling. Comments to PM.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
My apologies to all.
And after cautions to all in several currently-running threads (including this very one) about refraining from baiting and/or taking swipes at fans or fan groups with whom one might not agree... I am disappointed. I'm quite sure too, UFO, that I've spoken to you directly about this sort of thing before, and on more than one occasion.
True. I guess I was throwing a bone to our esteemed adversaries. They do seem surprisingly hungry for people who keep claiming they have already eaten.
Warning for trolling. Comments to PM.
My apologies to all.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
He suddenly knows everything just by getting a field commission?
He's at the Academy to further his education and learn discipline.
He suddenly knows everything just by getting a field commission?
He's at the Academy to further his education and learn discipline.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
You're right, calling Starfleet more realistic in this aspect was a bad choice of words. Starfleet actually takes even longer to promote people than real world organizations. Which makes ST09 even more wildly out of character for them.
I'm not talking about some hypothetical alternate universe version of physics where nothing works the way its expected to - I'm talking about different stories operating under different rules. Sometimes the rationality or believability of the main characters is completely beside the point. But a story does have to make it clear that is the case, and not try to present itself as a semi-rational fantasy world like ST09.
That's more or less what I'm saying. For instance, I could easily imagine St09 done as an independent Sci-fi property centered on a space empire which is described as holding the belief that new officers need to be thrown into the maelstrom and baptized by fire. In that context, I would have no problem with a young lt. already marked for some kind of command being rocketed to captain of a starship.
I don't think so either, though it probably would be realistic to discharge him (perhaps still an honorable discharge, but still), depending on exactly what attitude the leadership wanted to take towards the Klingons. But that doesn't really matter to me, because that would still be fairly out of character for Starfleet.
Star Trek and Starfleet very unrealistic when it comes to promotion (and the lack there of). Guys like Sulu, Riker, Chekov and LaForge should have had their own ships in a few years, not decades. Instead they hung around the Enterprise. Then we have Wes Crusher who goes from civilian to honorary Ensign to real Ensign to Cadet. I'm sure more than few guys who went to the Academy were going WTF when they heard Wes got to be an Ensign with out going. And why exactly did he lose his commission and have to go to the Academy after being an Ensign for a full year? Oh yeah, the actor was leaving the show.
Realism
You're right, calling Starfleet more realistic in this aspect was a bad choice of words. Starfleet actually takes even longer to promote people than real world organizations. Which makes ST09 even more wildly out of character for them.
I'm not talking about some hypothetical alternate universe version of physics where nothing works the way its expected to - I'm talking about different stories operating under different rules. Sometimes the rationality or believability of the main characters is completely beside the point. But a story does have to make it clear that is the case, and not try to present itself as a semi-rational fantasy world like ST09.
If however, you mean that in special situations they just decide to take the risk on promoting people like Kirk etc, I think that cultural peculiarity should be mentioned in the story so the audience knows they aren't completely insane.
That's more or less what I'm saying. For instance, I could easily imagine St09 done as an independent Sci-fi property centered on a space empire which is described as holding the belief that new officers need to be thrown into the maelstrom and baptized by fire. In that context, I would have no problem with a young lt. already marked for some kind of command being rocketed to captain of a starship.
I don't think so either, though it probably would be realistic to discharge him (perhaps still an honorable discharge, but still), depending on exactly what attitude the leadership wanted to take towards the Klingons. But that doesn't really matter to me, because that would still be fairly out of character for Starfleet.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
Eh, in today's world, we have analogies for both Admiral Marcus and for Kirk's Promotion to captain.
If you're a democrat Supporter, then look at Dick Cheney, his "group" published a manifesto of their intention to remake the middle East, and we elected the man who put him up as Vice President to the most powerful position in the world, and they proceeded to carry out that plan, along with another member of that group who was appointed as Secretary of Defense.
If you're a Republican Supporter, we elected a man who was a Community Organizer to the most powerful position in the world. We pushed aside a woman, who had 8 years as the wife of someone in that position in order to do it. Pres. Obama really had no experience to justify his election as President, and not only did we elect him, over someone with far more experience, but, then, a month after he took office, before even had time to do anything other put pictures on his wife and kids on his desk, we gave him the Nobel Peace Prize. Heck, President Obama didn't even finish his Academy Training. He left his State Senate Seat to become a Federal Senator before finishing his term, and then spent most of the time in that Federal seat running for President, and he again left before serving his full first term.
How can anyone look at either of these two "promotions" and claim they are any more likely or "sane" than Admiral Marcus becoming an Admiral or Captain Kirk becoming a captain?
Eh, in today's world, we have analogies for both Admiral Marcus and for Kirk's Promotion to captain.
If you're a democrat Supporter, then look at Dick Cheney, his "group" published a manifesto of their intention to remake the middle East, and we elected the man who put him up as Vice President to the most powerful position in the world, and they proceeded to carry out that plan, along with another member of that group who was appointed as Secretary of Defense.
If you're a Republican Supporter, we elected a man who was a Community Organizer to the most powerful position in the world. We pushed aside a woman, who had 8 years as the wife of someone in that position in order to do it. Pres. Obama really had no experience to justify his election as President, and not only did we elect him, over someone with far more experience, but, then, a month after he took office, before even had time to do anything other put pictures on his wife and kids on his desk, we gave him the Nobel Peace Prize. Heck, President Obama didn't even finish his Academy Training. He left his State Senate Seat to become a Federal Senator before finishing his term, and then spent most of the time in that Federal seat running for President, and he again left before serving his full first term.
How can anyone look at either of these two "promotions" and claim they are any more likely or "sane" than Admiral Marcus becoming an Admiral or Captain Kirk becoming a captain?
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
His actions saved the Federation, and Pike probably recommended him, so I'm not seeing the issue her, sorry.Star Trek and Starfleet very unrealistic when it comes to promotion (and the lack there of). Guys like Sulu, Riker, Chekov and LaForge should have had their own ships in a few years, not decades. Instead they hung around the Enterprise. Then we have Wes Crusher who goes from civilian to honorary Ensign to real Ensign to Cadet. I'm sure more than few guys who went to the Academy were going WTF when they heard Wes got to be an Ensign with out going. And why exactly did he lose his commission and have to go to the Academy after being an Ensign for a full year? Oh yeah, the actor was leaving the show.
Realism
You're right, calling Starfleet more realistic in this aspect was a bad choice of words. Starfleet actually takes even longer to promote people than real world organizations. Which makes ST09 even more wildly out of character for them.
I'm not talking about some hypothetical alternate universe version of physics where nothing works the way its expected to - I'm talking about different stories operating under different rules. Sometimes the rationality or believability of the main characters is completely beside the point. But a story does have to make it clear that is the case, and not try to present itself as a semi-rational fantasy world like ST09.
If however, you mean that in special situations they just decide to take the risk on promoting people like Kirk etc, I think that cultural peculiarity should be mentioned in the story so the audience knows they aren't completely insane.
That's more or less what I'm saying. For instance, I could easily imagine St09 done as an independent Sci-fi property centered on a space empire which is described as holding the belief that new officers need to be thrown into the maelstrom and baptized by fire. In that context, I would have no problem with a young lt. already marked for some kind of command being rocketed to captain of a starship.
I don't think so either, though it probably would be realistic to discharge him (perhaps still an honorable discharge, but still), depending on exactly what attitude the leadership wanted to take towards the Klingons. But that doesn't really matter to me, because that would still be fairly out of character for Starfleet.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
Me neither.
Kirk goes back in time to get whales to save earth and humanity and is excused from charges of conspiracy, assault of Federation Officers, theft of Federation property, and willful destruction of Federation property. The only charge that wasn't summarily dismissed was the "slap-on-the-wrist" charge that allowed Starfleet and the Federation President (for whatever reason HE was acting as judge at what should actually be a court martial, but anywho...) to hand Kirk and crew (who are all STILL TOGETHER after all these years) the keys to their very own brand spankin' new Starsip Enterprise - A.
This is Okee-Dokey.
But Lt. Kirk saves Pike and earth from the clutches of a Romulan madman from the future and his deadly uber-sphere o' red matter, and giving him the keys to the Enterprise is somehow ridiculous.
Me neither.
Kirk goes back in time to get whales to save earth and humanity and is excused from charges of conspiracy, assault of Federation Officers, theft of Federation property, and willful destruction of Federation property. The only charge that wasn't summarily dismissed was the "slap-on-the-wrist" charge that allowed Starfleet and the Federation President (for whatever reason HE was acting as judge at what should actually be a court martial, but anywho...) to hand Kirk and crew (who are all STILL TOGETHER after all these years) the keys to their very own brand spankin' new Starsip Enterprise - A.
This is Okee-Dokey.
But Lt. Kirk saves Pike and earth from the clutches of a Romulan madman from the future and his deadly uber-sphere o' red matter, and giving him the keys to the Enterprise is somehow ridiculous.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
I wonder how many times Wes pissed off his classmate with "Well, when I was flight controller on the Enterprise..."
Actually my point is Star Trek and Starfleet are very inconsistent in this matter. Characters advance or stagnate as the plot needs them. Picard and Kirk become Captains in their early thirties and remain Captains (or get busted down) because the plot needs them to be Captains. Wes becomes an Ensign then loses that commission so he can leave the show under the excuse he's going to the Academy. If Frakes wanted to leave they very well might have given Riker his own command to send the character off. The only rule is what the show or film needs the character to be. ST09 is no different in this. Kirk becomes Captain because the expectation is he will be the Captain of the Enterprise. Its the same set of rules Star Trek has always used.Star Trek and Starfleet very unrealistic when it comes to promotion (and the lack there of). Guys like Sulu, Riker, Chekov and LaForge should have had their own ships in a few years, not decades. Instead they hung around the Enterprise. Then we have Wes Crusher who goes from civilian to honorary Ensign to real Ensign to Cadet. I'm sure more than few guys who went to the Academy were going WTF when they heard Wes got to be an Ensign with out going. And why exactly did he lose his commission and have to go to the Academy after being an Ensign for a full year? Oh yeah, the actor was leaving the show.
Realism
You're right, calling Starfleet more realistic in this aspect was a bad choice of words. Starfleet actually takes even longer to promote people than real world organizations. Which makes ST09 even more wildly out of character for them.
I'm not talking about some hypothetical alternate universe version of physics where nothing works the way its expected to - I'm talking about different stories operating under different rules. Sometimes the rationality or believability of the main characters is completely beside the point. But a story does have to make it clear that is the case, and not try to present itself as a semi-rational fantasy world like ST09.
Makes no sense. At best he goes to Command School or some sort of OCS rather than the full four year Academy program.
I wonder how many times Wes pissed off his classmate with "Well, when I was flight controller on the Enterprise..."
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
And on scale, Nero was the bigger threat of the two films. the Whalesong probe would have done it's thing and moved on; Nero was hell bent on trashing the Federation.
And on scale, Nero was the bigger threat of the two films. the Whalesong probe would have done it's thing and moved on; Nero was hell bent on trashing the Federation.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
But nothing you're describing is that inconsistent. It's a fairly clear image of promotions happening quite slowly on average, and occasionally being taken away for various reasons, in which even the so called exceptional people don't make captain until they're in their thirties. So, not the same set of rules that's always been used.
But nothing you're describing is that inconsistent. It's a fairly clear image of promotions happening quite slowly on average, and occasionally being taken away for various reasons, in which even the so called exceptional people don't make captain until they're in their thirties. So, not the same set of rules that's always been used.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
Your mistake is trying to postulate "Starfleet policy" based on the limited information provided by what we see in the show. But thats just a hand full of ships and personnel. Plus its a series TV show/movies. There is no "Starfleet" or a plan in place by the show runners about promotions.
The rule is "needs of the plot" plain and simple.
Your mistake is trying to postulate "Starfleet policy" based on the limited information provided by what we see in the show. But thats just a hand full of ships and personnel. Plus its a series TV show/movies. There is no "Starfleet" or a plan in place by the show runners about promotions.
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
To me it doesn't matter how big the relative threat is. The only question is: Is Kirk properly trained for the job? As I have said, Starfleet should not be in the business of handing out starships as prizes.
In some respects yes and while it is unrealistic in a low grade fashion from a "believability" (if we actually bother to think about it) point of view, it is not irresponsible from an "is this person qualified for the job" or "does it make any sense to put this person in that position" (what the ...!)point of view. Others may have different objections of course.
To me it doesn't matter how big the relative threat is. The only question is: Is Kirk properly trained for the job? As I have said, Starfleet should not be in the business of handing out starships as prizes.
In some respects yes and while it is unrealistic in a low grade fashion from a "believability" (if we actually bother to think about it) point of view, it is not irresponsible from an "is this person qualified for the job" or "does it make any sense to put this person in that position" (what the ...!)point of view. Others may have different objections of course.
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
For decades I've been trying to figure out how Geordi, a Lieutenant jg con officer became Chief Engineer of the fleet's flagship. I've a similar problem with Worf's rise to Chief of Security. Though I can almost by that, given his proclivities.
That first quote isn't from me.
For decades I've been trying to figure out how Geordi, a Lieutenant jg con officer became Chief Engineer of the fleet's flagship. I've a similar problem with Worf's rise to Chief of Security. Though I can almost by that, given his proclivities.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
When TNG was conceived they didn't include a Chief Engineer as a regular character because - I guess - the computer was presumed to run the ship most of the time.
His rivals all died mysteriously.
When TNG was conceived they didn't include a Chief Engineer as a regular character because - I guess - the computer was presumed to run the ship most of the time.
His rivals all died mysteriously.
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