Same Sex Marriage

[Saito S]

I'm curious, Mars: why you don't want a gay character in Star Trek?

If you could find a good story reason, sure. But I can see them adding this and adding that because various political groups are bugging them to do it as well, it sort of constrains the writers freedom of imagination if you tell them he must include one of those, then he gets a character he didn't intend and has to write a story around him, maybe include some homosexual love interest. It gets tiresome writing about man love man romances. Well actually there was a homosexual character, now that I think about it. How about the Mirror Universe's Kira, the Intendent of Bajor, she had the hots for herself, so that box was checked already, yep homosexual character, we can cross that off now.

And with this nonsensical assemblage of words, I think it's time to put this to bed.

Mars is clearly not interested in actually acknowledging any points made in opposition to his viewpoint, and continues to trot out the "but it wouldn't serve the stoooooorrrryyyy!" argument despite it having been completely debunked like eight times, and has resorted to completely fabricating what his opponents' points are. So yeah, nothing more of value in this back-and-forth.

Plus, equating homosexuality with having AIDS? Seriously, that's pretty vile.

 

[Maurice]

Pardon my noun subsitution.

I'm curious, Mars: why you don't want a HINDU character in Star Trek?

If you could find a good story reason, sure...

I'm curious, Mars: why you don't want an ASIAN character in Star Trek?

If you could find a good story reason, sure...

I'm curious, Mars: why you don't want a DEAF character in Star Trek?

If you could find a good story reason, sure...

I'm curious, Mars: why you don't want a BLACK character in Star Trek?

If you could find a good story reason, sure...

I'm curious, Mars: why you don't want a ANY NORMAL HUMAN BEING character in Star Trek?

If you could find a good story reason, sure...

I don't think I need to continue. What Mars is saying is obvious to everyone.

 

[T'Girl]

Also consider what may happen if by the 24th century they determine exactly what causes homosexuality ...

Current medical opinion is a difference in brain architecture, subtle differences of the internal structure.

... and their doctors can do something about it.

The Human brain begins developing at just three weeks after conception. By the time most women realize they are preggers, the child's sexuality is a done deal, having been genetically "decided" with the formation of the very first cell ... at fertilization.

What if some prospective parents are conceiving a child, and the doctor comes up and says, we've determined by your child's genetic structure that he's going to be Gay, but we can fix it, your child can still be born, but he will not be gay if you like.

With the example of what happen to Dr. Bashir's father, any doctor making such a suggestion would be in violation of future law. There apparently being legal prohibitions against genetic manipulation, at least of Humans.

What do you think the child's parents are going to do?

Hopefully not end up in a penal colony.

Here's a question for you Mars. A lesbian couple is at their doctor's office because one of them is pregnant, much to their combined horror the child's brain structure indicate that he/she is heterosexual. Do you think the couple should seek to "adjust" the child sexuality to emulate their own homosexuality?

Fair is fair, right?

Homosexuals are "special" and people who wear glasses aren't.

People who are visually impaired suffer from a medical condition. Gay sexuality is not a medical condition.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

That being said, no doubt some parents and some doctors would favor genetic modification, à la Chakotay.

I have absolutely no recollection of ANY mention of Chakotay either being genetically modified OR being homophobic.

I was referring only to genetic modification (although "suppression" was probably a better word than "modification" in his case). From VOY: The Fight [http://www.chakoteya.net/Voyager/514.htm]:

EMH: Chakotay has the genetic marker for a cognitive disorder. Sensory tremens. The primary symptoms are visual and auditory hallucinations.
CHAKOTAY: My family Doctor suppressed the gene before I was even born so I never had to go through what the others did, like my grandfather.

My point was that Chakotay's parents chose the therapy, but because it was for his benefit. My stance on whether this or something similar should be applied for homosexuality (assuming it's even possible) should be clear from what I said upthread.

 

[Spock/Uhura Fan]

How about the Mirror Universe's Kira, the Intendent of Bajor, she had the hots for herself, so that box was checked already, yep homosexual character, we can cross that off now.

Oh yeah, I forgot about her. Everyone always thinks of the "Dax" thing (which I never thought made much sense since she and Kahn were heterosexual), but Mirror Kira was...


...wait, didn't she go both ways?

She did. I also think of the "Dax" thing as a sexual preference mixing. Both hosts were willing, which makes it a lesbian act, but the lives that were in love inside of them were heterosexual and therefore so was their love.

 

[Mars]

How about the Mirror Universe's Kira, the Intendent of Bajor, she had the hots for herself, so that box was checked already, yep homosexual character, we can cross that off now.

Oh yeah, I forgot about her. Everyone always thinks of the "Dax" thing (which I never thought made much sense since she and Kahn were heterosexual), but Mirror Kira was...


...wait, didn't she go both ways?

She did. I also think of the "Dax" thing as a sexual preference mixing. Both hosts were willing, which makes it a lesbian act, but the lives that were in love inside of them were heterosexual and therefore so was their love.

You have to remember that Jadzia Dax was a composite personality. Dax is actually a seperate organism from Jadzia the host. Dax has had many hosts, some male and some female, and Dax carries memories from host to host, so she remembers being male and she remembers being female.

Another situation occured in the original series when Kirk exchanged bodies with a woman through some ancient device, actually it was the womans idea, because she wanted to be captain of a starship, and the only way she could think of doing that was by inhabiting Kirk's body by exchanging minds with him. Kirk ended up in her body while she ended up in his. Well Kirk had to convince everybody she was Kirk so the two could exchange bodies back again to set things right.

 

[beamMe]

Oh yeah, I forgot about her. Everyone always thinks of the "Dax" thing (which I never thought made much sense since she and Kahn were heterosexual), but Mirror Kira was...


...wait, didn't she go both ways?

She did. I also think of the "Dax" thing as a sexual preference mixing. Both hosts were willing, which makes it a lesbian act, but the lives that were in love inside of them were heterosexual and therefore so was their love.

You have to remember that Jadzia Dax was a composite personality. Dax is actually a seperate organism from Jadzia the host. Dax has had many hosts, some male and some female, and Dax carries memories from host to host, so she remembers being male and she remembers being female.

Another situation occured in the original series when Kirk exchanged bodies with a woman through some ancient device, actually it was the womans idea, because she wanted to be captain of a starship, and the only way she could think of doing that was by inhabiting Kirk's body by exchanging minds with him. Kirk ended up in her body while she ended up in his. Well Kirk had to convince everybody she was Kirk so the two could exchange bodies back again to set things right.

Yes, we've all seen these epidsodes.
What's all this got to do with ... anything?

 

[Mars]

She did. I also think of the "Dax" thing as a sexual preference mixing. Both hosts were willing, which makes it a lesbian act, but the lives that were in love inside of them were heterosexual and therefore so was their love.

You have to remember that Jadzia Dax was a composite personality. Dax is actually a seperate organism from Jadzia the host. Dax has had many hosts, some male and some female, and Dax carries memories from host to host, so she remembers being male and she remembers being female.

Another situation occured in the original series when Kirk exchanged bodies with a woman through some ancient device, actually it was the womans idea, because she wanted to be captain of a starship, and the only way she could think of doing that was by inhabiting Kirk's body by exchanging minds with him. Kirk ended up in her body while she ended up in his. Well Kirk had to convince everybody she was Kirk so the two could exchange bodies back again to set things right.

Yes, we've all seen these epidsodes.
What's all this got to do with ... anything?

Lots it has to do with people with confused sexual identity which is what Homosexuality is all about. The Original Series episode was about a woman trying to deal with its a mans world and only men can be star ship captains by inhabiting the body of a starship captain. It was a rather awkward way of dealing with the problem. So what do you think, can the old body switch fix homosexuality? Oh I see were not supposed to do that, we not supposed to give a gay man a female body, not supposed to give a lesbian a male body, that would resolve the situation to easily and the pro-gay people don't want it resolved that way.

 

[beamMe]

Lots it has to do with people with confused sexual identity which is what Homosexuality is all about. The Original Series episode was about a woman trying to deal with its a mans world and only men can be star ship captains by inhabiting the body of a starship captain. It was a rather awkward way of dealing with the problem. So what do you think, can the old body switch fix homosexuality? Oh I see were not supposed to do that, we not supposed to give a gay man a female body, not supposed to give a lesbian a male body, that would resolve the situation to easily and the pro-gay people don't want it resolved that way.

Homosexuality is all about confused sexual identity?

You really aren't all that bright, are you?

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Lots it has to do with people with confused sexual identity which is what Homosexuality is all about. The Original Series episode was about a woman trying to deal with its a mans world and only men can be star ship captains by inhabiting the body of a starship captain. It was a rather awkward way of dealing with the problem. So what do you think, can the old body switch fix homosexuality? Oh I see were not supposed to do that, we not supposed to give a gay man a female body, not supposed to give a lesbian a male body, that would resolve the situation to easily and the pro-gay people don't want it resolved that way.

It might look like a fictional scenario in Star Trek to you, but unfortunately what you're suggesting is very real in certain parts of our world where homosexuality is a capital crime. Gay men are forced to undergo gender reassignment surgery to avoid the death penalty, which makes them “disappear” in just the way you want them to.

But what to you seems like an easy resolution to a problem, to them it's nothing less than a forced mutilation. Believe me, while a portion of them might be happy with their new gender, the majority would find it no less horrifying than you to have their genitalia forcefully removed and their entire body changed.

So the real life equivalent of your quick “fix” is pretty ghastly and inhumane. Do you really think we are supposed to do that?

 

[T'Girl]

Lots it has to do with people with confused sexual identity which is what Homosexuality is all about.

Not even close my friend, you will sometime see young people in their teen years being initially confused as to what their sexuality actual is. This isn't a case of all homosexuality being the product of confusion, rather an individual figuring out by looking inside themselves what their particular sexual identity is. I didn't go through that myself, but it isn't too uncommon.

The Original Series episode was about a woman trying to deal with its a mans world and only men can be star ship captains ...

While it's not impossible that Humanity was going through a time period of societal organization where only males could command starships, most people who analyze this episode (it's Turnabout Intruder) seem to agree that the real reason Janice Lester could not rise to the position of starship commander is because she suffered from psychological problems. It wasn't because she was female.

So what do you think, can the old body switch fix homosexuality?

First, being gay doesn't need to "be fixed."

But let me see if I can directly answer your question. Would Kirk retain his existing sexual orientation towards being sexual attracted to women? Or because his personality, his consciousness, is now inside of Janice's biological brain, would he assume Janice's sexual orientation (presumably heterosexual) and become attracted to men?

It's actual difficult to say.

Oh I see were not supposed to do that, we not supposed to give a gay man a female body ...

Problem there is, gay men don't want to have a vagina. They want to have sex with other men employing their penis to do so.

... not supposed to give a lesbian a male body

Same deal, lesbians don't want to have a penis, they like their vaginas, and they really like having sex with people who also possess a vagina.

... that would resolve the situation to easily

The people in the gay community who might like this ability, would be people in the transgender community. Sex reassignment surgery (SRS) is a expensive and somewhat arduous undertaking. Admittedly not all transgenders want SRS (I personally don't), but assuming you could pair off a suitable M2F, with a reciprocal F2M, the procedure could be quite beneficial.

... and the pro-gay people don't want it resolved that way.

Obviously not, with the exception I sighted.

]

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Lots it has to do with people with confused sexual identity which is what Homosexuality is all about.

No offense, but seriously, WTF?!?!?!?

I am a thirty year old white male who likes and enjoys intimate emotional and physical relationships with other males. Nothing about that is "confused sexual identity", it is what homosexuality is all about--love, sex, connection, intimacy with someone of the same sex, exactly the same as heterosexual couples. The only difference is that both partners have the same junk to ulitise down below.

Whatever applies to a straight couple also applies to gay one, which (by the time of Trek) will include same sex marriage, adoption, and everything else that a lifetime devoted to another person entails.

 

[Avon]

Mars, i think there should maybe be a heterosexual character, just one, but only if it fits a particular story. i wouldn't be comfortable seeing a man and a woman go on dates or get married on a regular basis.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

This is really a tangential issue, so I don't want it to hijack the discussion. Without debating how many there are on one side of the fence versus the other (and I know there are people in both camps), many people looking at Turnabout Intruder see it in the context of its times as blatantly sexist, including myself. For myself, there are no two ways about it, the episode clearly suggested that only men were allowed to command starships; it was retrograde, offensive, and incongruous with the first pilot. If any episode deserves to be retconned, it's this one. Sexism wasn't the only shortcoming of the episode either, as it was completely ridiculous that any member of the crew would help Kirk/Janice execute his senior staff for even a moment.

I feel it relevant to mention only because I don't want any interpretation of the shit episode named Turnabout Intruder to interfere with the discussion of more important points here.

 

[T'Girl]

...as it was completely ridiculous that any member of the crew would help Kirk/Janice execute his senior staff for even a moment.

Well of course done of them did, help with the execution that is. I look at it like in Mirror Mirror, when prime universe Kirk gave orders that his counter part never would have, the mirror crew initially followed those orders. But then they started to think about the orders and realized that there was a problem.

After the the senior officers were lead away by security, if the Enterprise internally is anything like a modern warship/military unit, the security guards would have gone to their senior NCO, who would have in turn questioned his commanding officer inside of the security department.

Modern soldiers/sailors have it absolutely ground into them that you don't follow a illegal order from a superior officer. Simply leading away the senior officer at Kirk's direction was likely perfectly legal. Execution is another matter. When it came down to it, it's unlikely the ship's security guard would have carried out the order to fire. And would have physically prevent Kirk/Lester from doing it herself.

Kirk probably could have ordered security to shoot to kill in the heat of a actual mutiny, but not once any "mutinaries" were captured and contained.

For myself, there are no two ways about it, the episode clearly suggested that only men were allowed to command starships

Which is a possibility. Societies do change over time, and sometime rapidly. The Human society within the Federation might have been going through time where only males commanded the ships.

Today, while we do have women US Navy Admirals commanding entire aircraft carrier battle groups, women in command of warships is still rare. We saw a dozen starship Captains during TOS, all were male, nor did we see many middle ranked woman officers in the fleet.

There is ongoing conjecture that Number One from the first pilot wasn't a Human. The Human prohibition against female commanding officer wouldn't necessarily apply to females of other species. It wasn't until TVH that we saw a (presumably) Human female commanding officer.

 

[Mars]

Lots it has to do with people with confused sexual identity which is what Homosexuality is all about.

No offense, but seriously, WTF?!?!?!?

I am a thirty year old white male who likes and enjoys intimate emotional and physical relationships with other males. Nothing about that is "confused sexual identity", it is what homosexuality is all about--love, sex, connection, intimacy with someone of the same sex, exactly the same as heterosexual couples. The only difference is that both partners have the same junk to ulitise down below.

Whatever applies to a straight couple also applies to gay one, which (by the time of Trek) will include same sex marriage, adoption, and everything else that a lifetime devoted to another person entails.

Well what would you do if you had the opportunity to change your body from male to female, that way you could be attracted to males and have the right "equipment" to match your "software". I notice your picture is that of a woman, what if you could be her? I guess what I'm saying is what if in the 24th century is was possible to match sexual orientation to one's gender? if such was the case, there would be a very good reason why there were no homosexual characters, as they all altered their bodies to match their minds.

 

[Mars]

This is really a tangential issue, so I don't want it to hijack the discussion. Without debating how many there are on one side of the fence versus the other (and I know there are people in both camps), many people looking at Turnabout Intruder see it in the context of its times as blatantly sexist, including myself. For myself, there are no two ways about it, the episode clearly suggested that only men were allowed to command starships; it was retrograde, offensive, and incongruous with the first pilot. If any episode deserves to be retconned, it's this one. Sexism wasn't the only shortcoming of the episode either, as it was completely ridiculous that any member of the crew would help Kirk/Janice execute his senior staff for even a moment.

I feel it relevant to mention only because I don't want any interpretation of the shit episode named Turnabout Intruder to interfere with the discussion of more important points here.

For what its worth, I agree with you, I don't think a woman ought to have to exchange bodies with Kirk in order to be captain of a starship, and we later had Janeway. The premise of that episode was flawed to say the least.

 

[Mars]

...as it was completely ridiculous that any member of the crew would help Kirk/Janice execute his senior staff for even a moment.

Well of course done of them did, help with the execution that is. I look at it like in Mirror Mirror, when prime universe Kirk gave orders that his counter part never would have, the mirror crew initially followed those orders. But then they started to think about the orders and realized that there was a problem.

After the the senior officers were lead away by security, if the Enterprise internally is anything like a modern warship/military unit, the security guards would have gone to their senior NCO, who would have in turn questioned his commanding officer inside of the security department.

Modern soldiers/sailors have it absolutely ground into them that you don't follow a illegal order from a superior officer. Simply leading away the senior officer at Kirk's direction was likely perfectly legal. Execution is another matter. When it came down to it, it's unlikely the ship's security guard would have carried out the order to fire. And would have physically prevent Kirk/Lester from doing it herself.

Kirk probably could have ordered security to shoot to kill in the heat of a actual mutiny, but not once any "mutinaries" were captured and contained.

For myself, there are no two ways about it, the episode clearly suggested that only men were allowed to command starships

Which is a possibility. Societies do change over time, and sometime rapidly. The Human society within the Federation might have been going through time where only males commanded the ships.

Today, while we do have women US Navy Admirals commanding entire aircraft carrier battle groups, women in command of warships is still rare. We saw a dozen starship Captains during TOS, all were male, nor did we see many middle ranked woman officers in the fleet.

There is ongoing conjecture that Number One from the first pilot wasn't a Human. The Human prohibition against female commanding officer wouldn't necessarily apply to females of other species. It wasn't until TVH that we saw a (presumably) Human female commanding officer.

That episode more reflected the 1960s than the 2260s. I don't think the position of Captain required one to bench press 200 lbs. Its more of an intellectual position than one requiring the brute strength of a male. if the position was professional heavy weight boxer, then a woman might have some trouble getting into that position, but if its captain of a starship, she would have to show proper judgement to command a starship, that is brains over brawn.

 

[DonIago]

Lots it has to do with people with confused sexual identity which is what Homosexuality is all about.

No offense, but seriously, WTF?!?!?!?

I am a thirty year old white male who likes and enjoys intimate emotional and physical relationships with other males. Nothing about that is "confused sexual identity", it is what homosexuality is all about--love, sex, connection, intimacy with someone of the same sex, exactly the same as heterosexual couples. The only difference is that both partners have the same junk to ulitise down below.

Whatever applies to a straight couple also applies to gay one, which (by the time of Trek) will include same sex marriage, adoption, and everything else that a lifetime devoted to another person entails.

Well what would you do if you had the opportunity to change your body from male to female, that way you could be attracted to males and have the right "equipment" to match your "software". I notice your picture is that of a woman, what if you could be her? I guess what I'm saying is what if in the 24th century is was possible to match sexual orientation to one's gender? if such was the case, there would be a very good reason why there were no homosexual characters, as they all altered their bodies to match their minds.

And now we're in DNFTT territory.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Some homos enjoy that their genitalia is identical to their sex parter and even might perfer it.