Same Sex Marriage

[horatio83]

I understand both opinions. Yes, homophobia is not something which one can talk about or which is negotiable or whatever, it is simply wrong. One has to talk in absolutes here.
But on the other hand there are many weak homophobes, people who are, as Bry said, just uncomfortable about homosexuality and a soft approach might actually convince them better than the sledgehammer. Respect them, talk with them and they might actually change their opinion.

 

[DS9Continuing]

I believe what Maurice is saying is that to present LGBT people as a neutral fact in Trek would actually achieve exactly that soft approach you mention. Showing people who don't know any better, that gay people exist and are just like everybody else except for one small detail. One doesn't need to be actively shouting "Gays are okay!" to nevertheless achieve that message - unaffected inclusion does the same, in exactly the same way that Uhura was unquestioned as a senior officer and Janeway was unquestioned as a captain.

On the other hand, the paranoid ranters will never be convinced no matter what method you use.

I think you're actually agreeing, even if it doesn't seem like you are.

.

 

[horatio83]

I referred to the response to Nighthawk, to how we deal with homophobe people, and I tried to point out that there are homophobes who are simply the enemy (if you talk with them you have already lost because you implicitly acknowledge that their position is valid) and weak homophobes with whom you can actually talk.
That Trek should depict homosexuality without making a fuss about it, story- or structurally-wise (the latter was the problem of Blood and Fire), to actually show that it is totally normal for people in the future is something we all agree on.

 

[Deckerd]

As someone already mentioned, Doctor Who is already doing this and it's (more or less) contemporary.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

And, people - there are gay characters in every other kind of tv show and movie you can name now.

This is no longer even potentially a case of Trek taking a meaningful stand on anything - just on the whole thing becoming a little less dated and retrograde.

 

[Knight Templar]

And, people - there are gay characters in every other kind of tv show and movie you can name now.

This is no longer even potentially a case of Trek taking a meaningful stand on anything - just on the whole thing becoming a little less dated and retrograd.

Dated and retrograd can be a good think if you're wishing to evoke memories of the best of past Star Trek.

And just because Hollywood writers push an agenda in other series and movies doesn't mean they have to in Star Trek.

 

[Nerys Myk]

And, people - there are gay characters in every other kind of tv show and movie you can name now.

This is no longer even potentially a case of Trek taking a meaningful stand on anything - just on the whole thing becoming a little less dated and retrograd.

Dated and retrograd can be a good think if you're wishing to evoke memories of the best of past Star Trek.

And just because Hollywood writers push an agenda in other series and movies doesn't mean they have to in Star Trek.

Common, the show was created by a liberal hedonist.

 

[Kenbushway]

And, people - there are gay characters in every other kind of tv show and movie you can name now.

This is no longer even potentially a case of Trek taking a meaningful stand on anything - just on the whole thing becoming a little less dated and retrograd.

Dated and retrograd can be a good think if you're wishing to evoke memories of the best of past Star Trek.

And just because Hollywood writers push an agenda in other series and movies doesn't mean they have to in Star Trek.

You've apparently never seen the TNG episode where Picard is thought of as a God. They weren't exactly nice with their description of what having a religion can mean. Star Trek has always pushed a liberal/progressive agenda, starting with the first interracial kiss on screen. Sorry dude, but you aren't watching what everyone else is.

 

[Knight Templar]

And, people - there are gay characters in every other kind of tv show and movie you can name now.

This is no longer even potentially a case of Trek taking a meaningful stand on anything - just on the whole thing becoming a little less dated and retrograd.

Dated and retrograd can be a good think if you're wishing to evoke memories of the best of past Star Trek.

And just because Hollywood writers push an agenda in other series and movies doesn't mean they have to in Star Trek.

Common, the show was created by a liberal hedonist.

Who was also a former soldier and cop.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

And, people - there are gay characters in every other kind of tv show and movie you can name now.

This is no longer even potentially a case of Trek taking a meaningful stand on anything - just on the whole thing becoming a little less dated and retrograde.

Dated and retrograd can be a good think[sic]

No.

 

[Maurice]

And just because Hollywood writers push an agenda in other series and movies doesn't mean they have to in Star Trek.

It's not a liberal agenda to portray humans as they actually exist. There are gay people in committed relationships. There are people who live down to and who buck every stereotype you can throw at them. The people who want to whitewash media portrayals just want to pretend the world isn't what it is. What you want is more fictional than what even Star Trek is: a view of humanity that pretends people exist on a much narrower spectrum than they actually do. Such a portrayal is neither accurate nor particularly flattering to humans, and definitely anti-IDIC.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Dated and retrograd can be a good think if you're wishing to evoke memories of the best of past Star Trek.

And just because Hollywood writers push an agenda in other series and movies doesn't mean they have to in Star Trek.

Common, the show was created by a liberal hedonist.

Who was also a former soldier and cop.

Which means what exactly? He was ex-cop and former soldier with a progressive, humanist, liberal viewpoint and that was reflected in his work as a TV writer/producer. Star Trek is not a show that looks backwards so "retrograde" and "dated" are not words that should be used to describe it at its "best".

 

[horatio83]

I fail to understand why right-wingers have a problem to acknowledge that Trek is a progressive franchise. Well, actually I do, but I do not really wanna write something nasty about their attitude concerning facts.
Gee, I like Firefly but I would never claim that it isn't a conservative show.

 

[Knight Templar]

Common, the show was created by a liberal hedonist.

Who was also a former soldier and cop.

Which means what exactly? He was ex-cop and former soldier with a progressive, humanist, liberal viewpoint and that was reflected in his work as a TV writer/producer. Star Trek is not a show that looks backwards so "retrograde" and "dated" are not words that should be used to describe it at its "best".

Roddenberrys "liberalism & progressivism (I hate that word)" is vastly overstated.

When he made the original series, Roddenberry was basically simply a television producer and writer (very poor writer) who wanted to make money.

He then spent years trying to achieve something beyond Trek and failed utterly. It was only when he realized he was stuck with eternally being the "creator of Star Trek" that he started talking about it as though it was something more than it was.

Many Hollywood people do that. They produce something, make lots of money, then go back and think what they made meant more than it did. Look at Spielberg and his making changes to E.T. because he "didn't like police officers pointing guns at children".

 

[Deckerd]

I think, to be fair, Rodenberry wasn't the only person who was a fan of Star Trek.

 

[horatio83]

Roddenberrys "liberalism & progressivism (I hate that word)" is vastly overstated.

When he made the original series, Roddenberry was basically simply a television producer and writer (very poor writer) who wanted to make money.

He then spent years trying to achieve something beyond Trek and failed utterly. It was only when he realized he was stuck with eternally being the "creator of Star Trek" that he started talking about it as though it was something more than it was.

Many Hollywood people do that. They produce something, make lots of money, then go back and think what they made meant more than it did. Look at Spielberg and his making changes to E.T. because he "didn't like police officers pointing guns at children".

If you watched TOS you must have missed the parts about eradicated poverty, United Earth and United Federation. Actually you muse have not watched the show at all as it is obvious if you merely watch one single episode.
But they, perhaps you wanna entertain us via claiming that right-wingers love the UN and the poor, love to create an egalitarian society made out of different nations (and in the case of Trek even of different planets).

 

[Knight Templar]

If you watched TOS you must have missed the parts about eradicated poverty, United Earth and United Federation. .

There is not a single word in the original series IIRC that says anything about

"eradicated poverty".

"United Earth" was only referenced as part of a title.

"United Federation"- what has that got to do with anything?

 

[horatio83]

One former enemy, one current enemy, one black woman, a Scotsman, a devilish looking alien and two Americans. United Earth and UFP are not names that are dropped from time to time, they are part of the very texture of the show.
Of course as a right-winger you have to disavow this in order to be able to pretend that the Federation is not a progressive and egalitarian institution, to be able to pretend that TOS is not a liberal show.

 

[Kenbushway]

If you watched TOS you must have missed the parts about eradicated poverty, United Earth and United Federation. .

There is not a single word in the original series IIRC that says anything about

"eradicated poverty".

"United Earth" was only referenced as part of a title.

"United Federation"- what has that got to do with anything?

Well now lets look at each word and slowly break it down.
Actually its been repeated countless of times that after the world war and the Vulcan visiting Earth became peaceful, ended all wars, poverty, and money.
1st words: United -- Earth, well this clearly isn't a conservative view point(well at least today's pretend conservatives like yourself). Because we all know if your not white and christian, you don't get a party invitation.
2nd words: United -- Federation, once again united federation of planets is the actual title. In order to be truly united people you need to accept how other people are, their cultures, and any religion(or lack there of). Once again not a very conservative idea.

Also you must remember the most important thing, The Prime Directive, non interference.

 

[Knight Templar]

If you watched TOS you must have missed the parts about eradicated poverty, United Earth and United Federation. .

There is not a single word in the original series IIRC that says anything about

"eradicated poverty".

"United Earth" was only referenced as part of a title.

"United Federation"- what has that got to do with anything?

Well now lets look at each word and slowly break it down.
Actually its been repeated countless of times that after the world war and the Vulcan visiting Earth became peaceful, ended all wars, poverty, and money.
1st words: United -- Earth, well this clearly isn't a conservative view point(well at least today's pretend conservatives like yourself). Because we all know if your not white and christian, you don't get a party invitation.
2nd words: United -- Federation, once again united federation of planets is the actual title. In order to be truly united people you need to accept how other people are, their cultures, and any religion(or lack there of). Once again not a very conservative idea.

Also you must remember the most important thing, The Prime Directive, non interference.

The Prime Direction is not at all related to this discussion.

I have no problem with Earth being united under U.S. dominance. And Starfleet is headquartered in the United States. And the Federation presidents office is in Paris, a long time (though annoying) ally of the United States.

As for this statement of yours

Actually its been repeated countless of times that after the world war and the Vulcan visiting Earth became peaceful, ended all wars, poverty, and money.

It was specified "original series" (where Gene Roddenberry had the most influence).

Except for a Third World War that killed 37 million people, and for the "Eugenics Wars" from 1992 to 1996, none of the stuff in your flat statement was included in the original series.