Revisiting ST-TNG...

[Holdfast]

I can see where Bill's coming from, because I use the same criterion very heavily. For all the discussion in this thread about quality, Star Trek's primary utility to me is entertainment, not whether it is an artistic or critic-friendly statement. Of course, there can be overlap, but many times it doesn't necessarily follow. The most useful way for me to judge a TNG episode is not "is it good?" but "do I enjoy it?". So rewatchability is going to be a major part of the way I personally rate episodes. I think this comes through quite strongly in my picks in that Top20 of TNG thread that popped up fairly recently. Lots of my choices don't tend to be critical highlights, but I enjoy them the most. For an entertainment series, I think that's crucial.

 

[Jonas Grumby]

^ I agree. The idea that rewatchability is unimportant is way off the mark. In fact, the entire Star Trek franchise owes its very existence in extremely large measure to the rewatchability of TOS.

 

[BillJ]

I can see where Bill's coming from, because I use the same criterion very heavily. For all the discussion in this thread about quality, Star Trek's primary utility to me is entertainment, not whether it is an artistic or critic-friendly statement. Of course, there can be overlap, but many times it doesn't necessarily follow. The most useful way for me to judge a TNG episode is not "is it good?" but "do I enjoy it?". So rewatchability is going to be a major part of the way I personally rate episodes. I think this comes through quite strongly in my picks in that Top20 of TNG thread that popped up fairly recently. Lots of my choices don't tend to be critical highlights, but I enjoy them the most. For an entertainment series, I think that's crucial.

^ I agree. The idea that rewatchability is unimportant is way off the mark. In fact, the entire Star Trek franchise owes its very existence in extremely large measure to the rewatchability of TOS.

 

[Ubik]

I can see where Bill's coming from, because I use the same criterion very heavily. For all the discussion in this thread about quality, Star Trek's primary utility to me is entertainment, not whether it is an artistic or critic-friendly statement. Of course, there can be overlap, but many times it doesn't necessarily follow. The most useful way for me to judge a TNG episode is not "is it good?" but "do I enjoy it?". So rewatchability is going to be a major part of the way I personally rate episodes. I think this comes through quite strongly in my picks in that Top20 of TNG thread that popped up fairly recently. Lots of my choices don't tend to be critical highlights, but I enjoy them the most. For an entertainment series, I think that's crucial.

^ I agree. The idea that rewatchability is unimportant is way off the mark. In fact, the entire Star Trek franchise owes its very existence in extremely large measure to the rewatchability of TOS.

Hey, don't get me wrong. Rewatchability is the primary criterion for the question of which episodes we enjoy the most. Sure. But, as has been stated, that's a very different question than which episodes are of the highest artistic quality. There is a time and place for both those questions, certainly, but I figured that, in a review thread, the topic was quality, not just enjoyment.

 

[BillJ]

Hey, don't get me wrong. Rewatchability is the primary criterion for the question of which episodes we enjoy the most. Sure. But, as has been stated, that's a very different question than which episodes are of the highest artistic quality. There is a time and place for both those questions, certainly, but I figured that, in a review thread, the topic was quality, not just enjoyment.

But quality is such a subjective term when it comes to entertainment. Should I automatically enjoy something because a group of people think it's good? Or should I base my enjoyment on what I find entertaining? Without Ronny Cox, Chain of Command I/II are one star episodes. I just don't find it entertaining to watch someone be tortured for a couple of hours. I actually find it insulting and insulting to those who have been degraded in that manner. If I wanted to see human beings degraded, I could have simply turned on the evening news or watched one of the many excellent documentaries on the subject.

Give me The Royale any day of the week.

 

[Warped9]

A big question: did I enjoy the episode, and if so then why? If I didn't enjoy the episode then what was it that ruined it for me?

I think that pretty much goes to the heart of the matter.
- Did I enjoy it?
- How much did I enjoy it?
- What did I like about it?

...and coversely,
- Why didn't I enjoy it?
- What spoiled it for me?

 

[RAMA]

A big question: did I enjoy the episode, and if so then why? If I didn't enjoy the episode then what was it that ruined it for me?

I think that pretty much goes to the heart of the matter.
- Did I enjoy it?
- How much did I enjoy it?
- What did I like about it?

...and coversely,
- Why didn't I enjoy it?
- What spoiled it for me?

Everyone is entitled to an informed opinion. Problems occur when there are too many dogmatic reasons why something should be so...too many unyielding preconceptions clouding judgement rather than an open mind.

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

Everyone is entitled to an informed opinion.

What defines an informed opinion? Sounds like your just spouting talking points. I've watched every episode of The Next Generation (seems to be all the information I need) some work for me others don't.

Why should I be beholden to someone else's definition of 'good'?

 

[RAMA]

Everyone is entitled to an informed opinion.

What defines an informed opinion? Sounds like your just spouting talking points. I've watched every episode of The Next Generation (seems to be all the information I need) some work for me others don't.

Why should I be beholden to someone else's definition of 'good'?

I didn't mean here specifically, its just that I find if i don't qualify the statement, people think opinions are always right, which they are most definitely not.

In terms of "preconceptions" those are self-evident.

RAMA

 

[Warped9]

“Homeward” ***

Worf's foster brother fights to save a primitive people in violation of the Prime Directive.

As a Federation cultural observer (or whatever he was) was Nikolai really bound by the Prime Directive? I thought that only really applied to Starfleet. It's an interesting story idea, but candidly I don't see anything remarkable in this episode. Everything unfolds in a rather predictable manner and ends that way as well. It certainly wasn't a horrible episode, but it wasn't anything special either.

Candidly I really have an issue with how the holodeck is used here, I grudgingly accept that it can create the illusion of a large open space, but to convince a group of people that they are traveling a very long distance within what is actually quite a confined space really beggars any sense of credibility. This was taking "technology unchained" or magic tech beyond the extreme.

 

[startrekwatcher]

I'd give Homeward about 1.5 stars--an exercise in tedium--shocked you gave it such a high score. I know many point to the brutal application of the Prime Directive as why they loathe it but it really didn't bother me.

What bothered me was it was yet another primitive culture story where the crew infiltrate it looking like them--these were fine in the show's heydays but by now it is old and tired. Then I didn't buy the actor whose name escapes me as Worf's brother--it felt like stunt casting to let actors who were Trek fans a chance to get onscreen before the show ended. Then if that wasn't enough we got another holodeck malfunction episode and a bit of Who Watches the Watchers when the kid discovers the rouse and kills himself which seemed like it wanted to be sad and powerful but did nothing for me. We get a "romance" with Kasidy Yates that was meant to cause the audience to care for the culture and make us understand why Nikolai was doing what he was doing. Then we got a rogue Federation personnel yet again--Yawn And the cast seemed like they were bored by it and were going through the motions.

Just a really boring episode and it was here I realized just how burnt out the writers were. It would only get worse from here out. About the only thing I enjoyed was seeing Michael Dorn out of his make-up.

 

[Warped9]

Then I didn't buy the actor whose name escapes me as Worf's brother

Paul Sorvino. A good actor, but wasted here.

You're right that some of this seemed tired. At the very beginning we get quite a bit of technobabble and what sounds like fake science to set up the situation. Yeah, I was rolling my eyes right off, but I hung in and it wasn't horrible as it unfolded.

You sum it up sufficiently: it seemed tired, but I don't think it was outright bad. It just doesn't offer anything memorable.

 

[RAMA]

“Homeward” ***

Worf's foster brother fights to save a primitive people in violation of the Prime Directive.

As a Federation cultural observer (or whatever he was) was Nikolai really bound by the Prime Directive? I thought that only really applied to Starfleet. It's an interesting story idea, but candidly I don't see anything remarkable in this episode. Everything unfolds in a rather predictable manner and ends that way as well. It certainly wasn't a horrible episode, but it wasn't anything special either.

Candidly I really have an issue with how the holodeck is used here, I grudgingly accept that it can create the illusion of a large open space, but to convince a group of people that they are traveling a very long distance within what is actually quite a confined space really beggars any sense of credibility. This was taking "technology unchained" or magic tech beyond the extreme.

I don't know what the official rule is, but Starfleet can enforce the rules for any UFP citizen, so if the PD is in effect, they could act. I would argue it is necessary for all civilians to follow the PD, because a wayward pilot who travels to another planet in a personal ship may be inclined to share technology with primitive species.

I think in the very first episode Data explains some of the ways the holodeck fools you, I recall some of the manuals try to explain it as well (official and otherwise). Assuming the tech exists, why would there be a limit to how long it can fool you, as long as it doesn't malfunction. To a primitive race it may as well be magic, they wouldn't know one way or the other.

The episode itself is no classic, and an obvious excuse to Bring Worf's brother aboard. The acting is above avg and the writer's make a good effort. ****stars

Interestingly, Microsoft received a patent on a holodeck like invention Apr 5th, 2011...

http://www.google.com/patents?hl=en&lr=lang_en&vid=USPAT7921376&id=8SFzAQAAEBAJ

http://trekmovie.com/2011/05/11/med...opment-microsoft-applies-for-holodeck-patent/

 

[Trekker4747]

“Homeward” ***

Worf's foster brother fights to save a primitive people in violation of the Prime Directive.

As a Federation cultural observer (or whatever he was) was Nikolai really bound by the Prime Directive? I thought that only really applied to Starfleet. It's an interesting story idea, but candidly I don't see anything remarkable in this episode. Everything unfolds in a rather predictable manner and ends that way as well. It certainly wasn't a horrible episode, but it wasn't anything special either.

Candidly I really have an issue with how the holodeck is used here, I grudgingly accept that it can create the illusion of a large open space, but to convince a group of people that they are traveling a very long distance within what is actually quite a confined space really beggars any sense of credibility. This was taking "technology unchained" or magic tech beyond the extreme.

The holodeck would encase each individual in their own "holo"-holodeck and would use a combination of gravity, forcefields, projections and the "treadmill effect" to give each person the sense that they are interacting with the others. To an outside observer, us, this would all be put together to look like a seamless whole.

 

[Warped9]

The holodeck would encase each individual in their own "holo"-holodeck and would use a combination of gravity, forcefields, projections and the "treadmill effect" to give each person the sense that they are interacting with the others. To an outside observer, us, this would all be put together to look like a seamless whole.

Uh...yeah.

 

[Harvey]

It seems a little late to be complaining about the principles of the holodeck. With some minor changes, the premise of the technology was pretty firmly established in the first season of the show. Nothing dramatically different about "Homeward" as far as I can tell.

Not the most engaging episode in the world, though.

 

[Ubik]

It seems a little late to be complaining about the principles of the holodeck. With some minor changes, the premise of the technology was pretty firmly established in the first season of the show. Nothing dramatically different about "Homeward" as far as I can tell.

Not the most engaging episode in the world, though.

Yeah, this is really a bad episode. Hey, what is it with you, Warped9, giving all these crappy episodes such high ratings?

 

[Warped9]

Yeah, this is really a bad episode. Hey, what is it with you, Warped9, giving all these crappy episodes such high ratings?

I suppose crappy is a relative term. A three star rating isn't a ringing endorsement. It's just saying it's run-of-the-mill. And I wouldn't say these are crappy on the level of something like "Justice" and "Menage A Troi" and others.


I've hit the mid point of Season 7 and it goes without saying I'm underwhelmed. While statistically it's a bit better than the first half of TNG's Season 1 it hasn't been nearly as interesting or entertaining. Candidly the whole first half of this season is forgettable (including "Inheritance") except for the last two episodes, "Parallels" and "The Pegasus."

 

[number6]

It seems a little late to be complaining about the principles of the holodeck. With some minor changes, the premise of the technology was pretty firmly established in the first season of the show. Nothing dramatically different about "Homeward" as far as I can tell.

Not the most engaging episode in the world, though.

Yeah, this is really a bad episode. Hey, what is it with you, Warped9, giving all these crappy episodes such high ratings?

This is also the bloke who gave TOS' Catspaw three stars.
I seriously doubt there will be a low rating for any episode of TOS. He is less generous with TNG and doesn't seem to really get any of the other shows at all, but thinks B5 is brilliant. That should tell you plenty about his "critical" point of view.

 

[Warped9]

This is also the bloke who gave TOS' Catspaw three stars.
I seriously doubt there will be a low rating for any episode of TOS. He is less generous with TNG and doesn't seem to really get any of the other shows at all, but thinks B5 is brilliant. That should tell you plenty about his "critical" point of view.

And whenever you open you mouth it always affirms loads of what I've suspected about you.

Funny, you don't see me going into other folks' threads to badmouth them. But I guess you can't help yourself.

I make no damned apologies for what I like or don't like. It's my opinion which is something you've never been able to stomach. And I "get" the other shows just fine---but you consider it a personal failing that I don't suck up the same stuff you like. And just what will it take for you to get out of my face? Or perhaps you just can't help trolling other people's threads.

Now I know I'll probably get a warning for this post even though I was just minding my own business and everything was just peachy...until now.