Insurrection not a bad film

[JarodRussell]

Sure the Baku might have told Picard it was voluntary on the exiles part, but remember that statement was coming from a group who wouldn't step aside to let many billions prosper from the particles that they wished to hoard for themselves.

They didn't hoard the particles for themselves. They were just living there.

wow, you really do interpret things in the most charitable manner for the Baku, don't you? I notice that when the battle began in the movie, the leaders of the Baku didn't exactly jump on the idea of calling the whole thing off in order to share the resources of the planet.

As T'Girl pointed out, the reason we didn't see a scene where the Baku explicitly reject resettlement elsewhere to enable the sharing of the resources was because it would've made them even less sympathetic than they already were.


there's a reason why they didn't go public about what they found on the planet when they crashed their three hundred years ago.

Go public? Go public where?

And then, they were escaping a planet that was in a war, hiding inside a nebula. I guess they did that in order not to be traced.

 

[BillJ]

They didn't hoard the particles for themselves. They were just living there.

wow, you really do interpret things in the most charitable manner for the Baku, don't you? I notice that when the battle began in the movie, the leaders of the Baku didn't exactly jump on the idea of calling the whole thing off in order to share the resources of the planet.

As T'Girl pointed out, the reason we didn't see a scene where the Baku explicitly reject resettlement elsewhere to enable the sharing of the resources was because it would've made them even less sympathetic than they already were.


there's a reason why they didn't go public about what they found on the planet when they crashed their three hundred years ago.

Go public? Go public where?

And then, they were escaping a planet that was in a war, hiding inside a nebula. I guess they did that in order not to be traced.

Perhaps the Ba'ku who originally landed on the planet were war criminals.

 

[bigdaddy]

I would say that first contact, though a different ship was epic and brought back memories from the show.

I don't agree. It had a chance to be great, but it just falls flat at times.

It's a fine movie, but the tone of the movie is completely different than TNG. It also rewrites history with the lame ass Borg Queen, and I couldn't stand that.

 

[Dukhat]

It also rewrites history with the lame ass Borg Queen, and I couldn't stand that.

It also rewrites history with the lame ass Zefram Cochrane interpretation by James Cromwell. And the start of Picard morphing from gentleman explorer into macho action hero.

 

[Trilliam]

Perhaps the Ba'ku who originally landed on the planet were war criminals.

Or Pacificists? Conscientious Objectors?

 

[sonak]

Perhaps the Ba'ku who originally landed on the planet were war criminals.

Or Pacificists? Conscientious Objectors?

how did a bunch of pacifists forcibly expel the Son'a?


"you must leave this planet and not come back!"


"ummmm... no. What are you going to do to make us?"


"we will spout New Agey cliches and mindless platitudes at you until you'll beg to leave!"

 

[Trilliam]

"we will spout New Agey cliches and mindless platitudes at you until you'll beg to leave!"

That would be enough for me to leave . That's why I don't live in Byron Bay or Nimbin.

You're not familiar with "While you live under my roof, you'll follow my rules. If you don't like it, leave"?

 

[BillJ]

how did a bunch of pacifists forcibly expel the Son'a?

That is one hell of an excellent question that I'd never even thought about before. Add to that... if they had no technology, how did the Son'a get off the planet to begin with?

I don't think the Amish were as Amish as they were leading the outworlders to believe. Or did they turn Amish once they vanquished the last of their enemies?

I think it'd be tough to find a film more sloppily written than this one.

SOJEF: We came here from a solar system on the verge of self-annihilation, ...where technology had created weapons that threatened to destroy all life. A small group of us set off to find a new home, ...a home that would be isolated from the threats of other worlds. ...That was three hundred and nine years ago.

So. Were they on the verge of self-annihilation? Or were they being threatened by other worlds? They contradict themselves within one line of dialogue. Then you have the fact they never offer up that they have people they expelled off-world who might be a tad pissed.

Then you have dialogue to indicate that the Son'a tried to take the colony and were repelled by the Ba'ku...

SOJEF: A century ago, a group of our young people wanted to follow the ways of the offlanders. They tried to take over the colony and when they failed...
RU'AFO: And when we failed, you exiled us to die slowly.

And if the Ba'ku had been isolated for three hundred years and teaching their young to lead Amish lives. How would they even know about the ways of the 'offlanders'?

 

[sonak]

"we will spout New Agey cliches and mindless platitudes at you until you'll beg to leave!"

That would be enough for me to leave . That's why I don't live in Byron Bay or Nimbin.

You're not familiar with "While you live under my roof, you'll follow my rules. If you don't like it, leave"?

I am, and guess what? If they refuse to leave, generally the POLICE are called in if the owners really want to make an issue out of their "guests" refusing to leave.


So I ask again, how did a group of pacifists FORCE the Son'a to leave?

 

[BillJ]

Wouldn't the Son'a have every bit as much a claim to the planet as the Ba'ku (many were obviously born there)? Were they compensated by the Ba'ku for the property that was seized upon expulsion (Son'a had to be living somewhere)? Was it right for the Ba'ku to exile the Son'a off world, essentially sentencing them to death?

How un-Federation like are the ideas above?

Picard was doing the bidding of a piece of pretty white tail.

I'm sorry. This movie was never as 'cut-and-dry' morality play as people like to make it out to be. Admiral Dougherty is not some evil villain, as some people desperately want him to be.

If Picard was as interested in true 'non-interference' as he claims to be, he would have contacted Dougherty as soon as he found out about the two being connected and recused the Federation from the whole mess. Signs point to the Ba'ku as having previously fought and repelled the Son'a.

 

[sonak]

Wouldn't the Son'a have every bit as much a claim to the planet as the Ba'ku (many were obviously born there)? Were they compensated by the Ba'ku for the property that was seized upon expulsion (Son'a had to be living somewhere)? Was it right for the Ba'ku to exile the Son'a off world, essentially sentencing them to death?

How un-Federation like are the ideas above?

Picard was doing the bidding of a piece of pretty white tail.

I'm sorry. This movie was never as 'cut-and-dry' morality play as people like to make it out to be. Admiral Dougherty is not some evil villain, as some people desperately want him to be.

If Picard was as interested in true 'non-interference' as he claims to be, he would have contacted Dougherty as soon as he found out about the two being connected and recused the Federation from the whole mess. Signs point to the Ba'ku as having previously fought and repelled the Son'a.

I just go back to your point earlier about the film being very sloppily written. They made this really contrived premise that's full of holes.

You're right that the Son'a have just as much right to the planet, and Picard shows what a hypocrite he is in the film when he tells DOUGHERTY that he "brought the Federation into a blood feud."


um, Picard, what do you think you've been doing? You've just taken the Baku side in what's basically a Civil War. Picard should've re-evaluated his entire stance when he learned that the Baku and the Son'a were the same race, but hey, Anij is really hot and it's been a while since Picard's gotten some, so....

 

[Trilliam]

"we will spout New Agey cliches and mindless platitudes at you until you'll beg to leave!"

That would be enough for me to leave . That's why I don't live in Byron Bay or Nimbin.

You're not familiar with "While you live under my roof, you'll follow my rules. If you don't like it, leave"?

I am, and guess what? If they refuse to leave, generally the POLICE are called in if the owners really want to make an issue out of their "guests" refusing to leave.




So I ask again, how did a group of pacifists FORCE the Son'a to leave?

How often do PARENTS call the Police during arguments over house rules? Which is what the Ba'ku were to the So'na.

 

[sonak]

That would be enough for me to leave . That's why I don't live in Byron Bay or Nimbin.

You're not familiar with "While you live under my roof, you'll follow my rules. If you don't like it, leave"?

I am, and guess what? If they refuse to leave, generally the POLICE are called in if the owners really want to make an issue out of their "guests" refusing to leave.




So I ask again, how did a group of pacifists FORCE the Son'a to leave?

How often do PARENTS call the Police during arguments over house rules? Which is what the Ba'ku were to the So'na.

so let me get this straight. You really think that the Baku just politely asked the Son'a to leave, and the Son'a agreed? Does that make ANY sense given what we know of Ru'afo and the bitterness he felt toward the Baku? Why would he be seeking revenge if they all just sort of mutually agreed to go separate ways?


obviously, the Son'a were rightfully pissed at being excluded from the Fountain of Youth and there's no way for them to be excluded without some level of enFORCEment.


But of course they had to be vague on these points because it would ruin the image of the Baku as noble pacifists who must be protected by Picard and company.

 

[Trilliam]

But of course they had to be vague on these points because it would ruin the image of the Baku as noble pacifists who must be protected by Picard and company.

And you don't know anyone who was thrown out of home and told more or less to never darken the doostep again?
Thei nternal politics of "The Briar Patch" has nothing to do with displacing people from their homes in the "dark of the night". Which is really the crux of the film. What the HEdouble hockey sticks was the Federation doing getting into bed with the So'na in the first place (no, the ends do not justify the means). No one from the Xeno-sociology Dept checked into veracity of the So'na origins or at least their history? If the majority of the So'na are the "children" of the current Ba'ku, their "history" is a blip of time.

THe Federation is so rattled after the Dominion War & the Borg, that they'll jump ro bed with anyone?

 

[T'Girl]

as the planet clearly was NOT "terra nullius".

But again, no one (except the Baku) wanted the planet itself, the main interest for the Federation were the rings of particulates, collecting them was going to fry the planet's surface, that why the Federation wanted the Baku off.

The small Baku colony's claim on the entire planet was shaky, their hold on the surrounding space non-existent.

if they had no technology, how did the Son'a get off the planet to begin with?

PICARD: You have warp capability?
ANIJ: Capability, yes.

The Baku had the technology to analyze Commander Data's positronic brain problem, either somewhere the Baku have ship/ships - or - they possess the ability to construct them.

And if the Ba'ku had been isolated for three hundred years and teaching their young to lead Amish lives. How would they even know about the ways of the 'offlanders'?

We came here from a solar system ...that was three hundred and nine years ago (~2066).
A century ago, a group of our young people wanted to follow the ways of the offlanders (~2275).
Half a century ago they (the Sona) conquered two primitive races, the Tarlac and the Ellora (~2325)

Two hundred plus years after arriving at the planet, the Baku apparently were in some fashion in communication with "offlanders." The Baku young were suduced by their city ways and wish to emulate them, my impression is that the young didn't so much want to run away to the stars, instead wished to begin to incorporate advanced technology into the everyday Baku lifestyle.

Their elders proclaimed "conform, or be cast out," eventually the youth were provided transportation and they left. Within a half century the youth, the Sona, were strong enough to conquer primitive worlds. I wonder just how many youth were expelled.

 

[Trilliam]

50 years - that 2 generations worth of offspring.

 

[Trilliam]

T'Girl, what are the "territorial limits/space" when applied to planets? Countries surrounded by water have limits into the ocean - territorial waters, what is the equivalent to planets?

 

[BillJ]

T'Girl, what are the "territorial limits/space" when applied to planets? Countries surrounded by water have limits into the ocean - territorial waters, what is the equivalent to planets?

But what about Son'a claims to the planet and its resources? Many were born there so the planet is as much theirs as it is the Ba'ku.

The Son'a were expelled because they wanted to incorporate new ways of living into Ba'ku society. Not expelled from the village but kicked off-world.

The film got messy because to many factions muddled the point the film was trying to make. The film either needed to be Starfleet vs. Starfleet with the Ba'ku in the middle or the Ba'ku vs. the Son'a with Starfleet in the middle. The ramifications of the Dominion war also needed to be ramped-up in the film... showing a reason for Starfleet to take questionable measures where the Ba'ku were concerned.

 

[Trilliam]

But what about Son'a claims to the planet and its resources? Many were born there so the planet is as much theirs as it is the Ba'ku.

They left -they walked away from it all. It's like the adult child who turns their back on their parents & cutting the parents out of their lives, coming pack after the parents have died excpecting/ demanding a cut of the deceased estate.

 

[sonak]

But what about Son'a claims to the planet and its resources? Many were born there so the planet is as much theirs as it is the Ba'ku.

They left -they walked away from it all. It's like the adult child who turns their back on their parents & cutting the parents out of their lives, coming pack after the parents have died excpecting/ demanding a cut of the deceased estate.

I really don't know where you're getting this from. The quotes have been supplied earlier in this thread that show the Son'a did NOT leave voluntarily. You're interpretation not only goes against what is literally stated, but would also make no sense given what we know of the Son'a motivations.