TBBS and treatment of women

[Shatnertage]

TBBS and treatment of women

This bothers me for a while now. And in general, the treatment of non members. I'm already quite sick of reading how other people are called dumb asses and fuck ups and whatnot. Were they members, it wouldn't be allowed. It's hypocrisy. That became apparent in the whole Chase Masterson thing.

That's a really good point.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

...My repressed Irish Catholic mother calls women, including herself, bitches. Tramps? Is that a bad word? It just makes me think of an old Cher song.

As I said, misogynistic profanities are OK with some members of staff.

That's not what you said at all. You said 80% of the Miscellaneous mods allow, approve of, and participate in making misogynistic comments, and when called on it by me you offered no apology, learned nothing from it, pretended my post didn't happen, and continued right on making up a new set of false and offensive accusations which we'll get into below.

Creating an offensive and hostile atmosphere is a two-way street. When you press this issue with hostility and falsehoods, you make the forum an uncomfortable place for myself and the other Miscellaneous mods, not to mention hijacking the true purpose of Robert's thread, which was not about playing the blame game. When you make up falsehoods like TNZ posters ridicule deceased members of the board in memorial threads, and help perpetuate the ridiculous bitterness between TNZ and Miscellaneous posters, you make it an uncomfortable place for them to post. You're fixating on only one issue of a relatively few male posters creating an uncomfortable environment for female posters while participating in making it an uncomfortable environment for others yourself. I think a great deal of self-awareness is needed on all sides.

As far as RJ goes, while he and I have different perspectives on what is acceptable behavior and what should be done about it, in talking with him and watching him post for several years I know that he is not sexist or misogynistic in the slightest. He fully believes in equality and inclusiveness for all, and it irritates me to see him depicted as something he is not, just as it does when it is directed toward me or the other mods. Just because he has different opinions on sexuality and expressing yourself online than others doesn't mean he approves of sexist behavior.

I usually have a lot of respect for you RJ, as you know, but I am really taken aback by how dismissive and insensitive you are being on this issue. It has been raised so many times by a number of people. Surely there is something to it. Are all the complainers having a mass delusion?

Not all or even most, no, but a couple people seem to escalate the situation and blow things entirely out of proportion with great regularity, to the point where the Miscellaneous mods expect it as a biannual event. To be blunt, you're the most extreme person every single time, and it's not productive to those people who genuinely want to discuss the issue without false accusations and hyperbole.

It's a very real issue and bothers many posters, but it's not as major as you make it out to be, nor was the great Miscellaneous exodus as big as you allege. Posters come and go, and we have about as many female posters now as we ever did.

There is a hostile atmosphere for women, at times. Is this so hard to understand? Are you really implying we should match ourselves to the lowest common denominator?

No, but we need to find a middle ground between rampant offensiveness and oppressiveness, which frankly I think it would be if we followed whatever vague over-the-top plan to "do something that doesn't require me to put in any effort myself" that you always keep calling for.

The staff say we should notify if we have a problem, I agree that is a reasonable place to begin, except we tried that one out in 2009 and also way before that, it didn't work (not for long anyway).

I ask again. Where's the proof? Numerous verbal warnings and infractions have been handed out for posters crossing the line into offensive and sexist behavior here, by myself and the other mods despite us apparently doing "nothing" according to your narrative. A couple of posters have been permabanned here because of their creepy and stalkerish actions. The number of notifications and complaints about the issue have gone way down, and not due to a decline in female posters. And yet you seem to exist in some parallel Miscellaneous where nothing has changed over the past two years.

Fair enough. I would usually agree with you, actually. In fact, a male mod did take this very seriously, and actively did something about it (Spocked), but some of the culprits we're talking about basically organised a witch hunt, until he was forced to retreat. The problem was the mods were not presenting a united front, and they were able to bait and hook a lone mod over a period of time, he's only human. I believe it will take more than one mod to do it.

You quite simply have no clue what you are talking about, and have created this ridiculous backstory to fill in the blanks of what you don't know. There was no witch hunt against SPOCKED, nor was he the only mod who took or takes the issue of the atmosphere for female posters here seriously. The public issues between him and certain posters and the sexism issue are - except for one incident which was dealt with strongly by T'Bonz and the staff - completely unrelated. .

It's not that the current mods are incapable, far from it, in this case, they just haven't wanted to deal with it. It's easy enough to say I'll deal with it, but actions speak louder than words. It's easy to ignore a problem when it does not directly affect you. That was my only point, not to say that the male population in general can never mod fairly.

You don't think this directly affects me and that the negative atmosphere in here doesn't get back to us moderators? Do you think I just type out long posts like this for the hell of it? I (and my fellow mods) take it very seriously, and I don't appreciate being told what I think or what I haven't done by one person who doesn't have any idea what she's talking about. We've spoke with actions numerous times. Just because you and a couple others choose to ignore it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

This has been a serious issue for me right from the start of moderating here. I brought up the issue of female posters feeling uncomfortable in Miscellaneous in the Briefing Room in either my first or second week as a mod, expecting a light discussion on how to deal with it. It exploded into a huge debate and took me completely by surprise. Since then, I've been through several of these public flare-ups and had the same discussion over and over and over, with the same few people being the loudest and least helpful each time despite most of the people being reasonable.

When I was on the staff here, I mentioned one time that it would be good to have a female moderator in misc, and with the above two paragraphs in mind, I believe that person would need to be given some free reign, if the status quo is to be challenged and a new equilibrium become established.

Some may react by saying that's pushing things too far, or sewing the seeds of chaos and staff disagreements. But I think it would work. If it doesn't work, then we can try something else.

Giving one person free reign as a mod in Miscellaneous was a bad idea then, and it remains a bad idea now. Right now we have four moderators with differing perspectives who can bounce things off of each other and come to a consensus on how things should be handled with the assistance of the other mods (male and female) who can see every notification, and the oversight of the admins, including T'Bonz, who already has the power you refer to but is a known quantity in that we know she isn't going to abuse her power through prior experience. We don't know that of some new person elevated to the job. This job gets stressful, and giving someone free reign to warn or get rid of whomever they want without consensus is a recipe for a lot more pissed off people than we already have now.

By the way, when SPOCKED left the mod staff, I and others nominated several female (and male) posters to replace him. Not because we needed a female mod to handle this issue, but because we felt they were outstanding posters and the best choices for the job. Ultimately, despite the accusations of constant problems being thrown around here, Miscellaneous is fairly mellow and it was decided a new mod wasn't necessary. Frankly, the idea that only a female mod can enforce policies against sexist behavior is sexist itself and more than a little insulting to all of us on the staff, not to mention ignoring the female administrator of the board and the numerous female mods and admins who can weigh in on every notification.

If it seems like I take this personally, it's because I've been dealing with this problem literally from day one as a mod here, and I don't appreciate the subtle and not so subtle jabs at us when we're doing our best to make this a pleasant environment for as many people as possible without going to the extremes of anarchy or oppressiveness.

What you're suggesting isn't going to change anything. People only hit notify if something is big enough and obvious enough to complain about.

Buttons are black&white things. To press or not to press. Problem or no problem. People don't notify the small stuff because the process of typing in an explanation on the notify form will always feel disproportionate to whatever the incident it.

If a problem is so minor that you can't even muster up the tremendous strength of will to push a button and type "this is sexist" or "this offends me" or "ooh, gross," then how worthy of moderation could it have possibly been? Therein lies the problem with so many of these complaints time and again. No one seems to want to do even the most basic legwork themselves, and they don't seem to have the foggiest idea what they want to or can reasonably change beyond saying "FIX IT!" I feel like a politician, without all the perks of "fact-finding" trips to Aruba and million-dollar speaking engagements.

I don't think it's a question of existing mods not being able to handle it. My earlier suggestion wasn't to question moderator competence, but to highlight how a female mod would find it easier than a man to see things from a female perspective.

Seeing as how you were a female mod who by your own admission in this thread weighed in on the issue of treatment of female posters in Miscellaneous in the Briefing Room, your continued assertion that we're lacking a female voice when dealing with notifications is very misleading to the other posters here. Female mods and admins weigh in on Miscellaneous notifications and other concerns all the time.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Add to that, the ultimate say in all matters here, is done by a female, Overlordess T'Bonz. I can't speak for her, but I would assume that should you have a letigimate issue that you feel has not been resolved by a MOD or Administrator and they feel it has, you could always try PMing her.

And most MODs here seem to be fair minded folk. Not all, but more than enough.

 

[Jenee]

Some women do want their cake and eat it to.

RJ is correct in this discussion. I may have been a child throughout most of the 70s, but I remember the way things were and how men were adamantly opposed to the changes in "the women's revolution".

So, you can either wear jeans, get paid ... 70percent of men's wages (as opposed to 50% pre 1970s) and be able to walk about in public without fear of abuse (she was out alone, she was asking for it) or you can scroll past the posts that offends you.

I know which choice I'm making.

 

[ThankQ]

So - here is my solution. If you think someone is crossing the line, hit the mod notify (even if the post is not directly aimed at you.)

This is probably the only sensible thing we can do. We can't censor thoughts or intent, but at the same time we can notify problematic posts and have the staff deal with them in whatever way they find appropriate, instead of just cringing and then shrug it off because "it's not my problem".

I have recently come to the opinion that everything the iguanodon says is 99.9% pure truth, and this post has done nothing to change my opinion.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

As far as "notify if you have a problem" I did that once, about a degrading sexual avatar. I'm more inclined to dismiss anyone reveling in such crap but this one actually upset me a lot. So I notified a mod and wrote them a note about it. Never heard a thing from the mod and the avatar remained. So I've just assumed ever since that notifying about such stuff is not welcome.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

As far as "notify if you have a problem" I did that once, about a degrading sexual avatar. I'm more inclined to dismiss anyone reveling in such crap but this one actually upset me a lot. So I notified a mod and wrote them a note about it. Never heard a thing from the mod and the avatar remained. So I've just assumed ever since that notifying about such stuff is not welcome.

That's a misunderstanding of the purpose of the notification system. Just because you notify on something doesn't mean the staff is going to agree with your assessment of the situation; or even if they do, it doesn't mean the subject of the notification violates the board rules and is actionable. You shouldn't assume that just because they didn't ask for the avatar to be removed that they didn't consider your request or that notifications are "not welcome."

As far as the lack of response to your PM(?), avatars are actually a board-wide issue rather than something individual forum mods make a decision on, so they might have kicked it up the ladder to the admins and there was simply a miscommunication on who should respond, or they simply forgot. But don't take it personally or think your concerns were just dismissed out of hand.

You can turn off all avatars in the forum by following these steps:

1) Click User CP in the top left corner of the board.
2) Scroll down to the Settings & Options menu on the left, and click Edit Options.
3) Scroll down until you reach Thread Display Options in the middle of the page, and uncheck Show Avatars.

Alternatively, if you don't want to go that far and if you're using Firefox, you can download the Remove It Permanently add-on and remove individual avatars and images.

I hope that helps.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Well frankly if avatars that make a joke about rape are acceptable I can't see any avatars being banned. I was completely disgusted that it was not removed. It's the only thing I've ever complained about. To me saying "you don't have to look at it, turn the avatars off" is missing the point.

I do realize it may have been overlooked or the Mod may have been majorly afk and just forgotten about it. I took a break from the BBS for a while after and because of it.

All of which is to say.. that incident and plenty of other stuff I've read has meant that I consider Trekbbs to be a hugely sexist place. Sometimes I need a break from either certain forums or from the whole thing when I read too much of that guff. It's an excellent BBS, very well run otherwise, and I always return here but I'm aware that I'm in a potentially woman degrading zone while here. I know that's a scoff worthy statement to some.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Well frankly if avatars that make a joke about rape are acceptable I can't see any avatars being banned. I was completely disgusted that it was not removed. It's the only thing I've ever complained about. To me saying "you don't have to look at it, turn the avatars off" is missing the point.

Wow, you took that completely the wrong way. I was trying to be helpful and give you additional alternatives since you seemed discouraged about using the notification system. I wasn't trying to be dismissive of your complaint. I thought the "I hope that helps " would have been an indication. I also told you not to hesitate to use the notification system again, so it's not as if I simply told you to deal with it yourself.

Nor was I "missing the point," seeing as how you made no mention of the fact that the avatar in question joked about rape until this post. Obviously, that's a very serious issue; one beyond even a "degrading sexual avatar" like you said above which is vague and could mean a lot of different things to different people as this topic makes clear. I have no recollection of any avatars mocking rape coming up in any Miscellaneous notifications (that would stick out in my mind), unless it happened during one of the times I was in the hospital, so I'm assuming it was in another forum?

It's not fair to judge the content of my post when I didn't know the avatar/notification you were referring to and the details were not made clear. Obviously I'm not saying avatars mocking rape are acceptable.

All of which is to say.. that incident and plenty of other stuff I've read has meant that I consider Trekbbs to be a hugely sexist place.

Honestly, when I read that I have to wonder if you've not been exposed to a lot of the internet, much less the comments section on any YouTube video featuring an attractive woman. While the problems people mention here are certainly serious, to call TrekBBS "hugely sexist" is completely unfair in my opinion. I know the incident you mention above colored your opinion, but I simply can't reconcile your opinion with my experiences on other forums and around the internet. TrekBBS is really quite tame when it comes to the wider internet.

 

[RJDiogenes]

RJ, not getting into whether you're right or wrong, I have noticed in the past, you never really take an effort to see the other viewpoint. Obviously, this thread wouldn't be 10+ pages every six months if there weren't legitimate concerns. I think you take a "equality means pretending distinctions and context doesn't matter", while I think there needs to be a more nuanced approach. Otherwise, the extreme end of your position would be like one poster, who feels that males exposing their chest is a double standard.

It is a double standard, an opinion shared by all those women who go to court for the right to go topless in public (and occasionally win). As for seeing the other viewpoint, it's not like this is the first time the issue has come up; as with any other subject, I've thought it through quite extensively, and I've given solid reasons for believing as I do.

I don't understand what's unhelpful, especially since you cut off the part of my post where I made my point. Is it unhelpful to expect people to be mature? Is it unhelpful to expect women to be equal? I don't get it.

So wait, sexualizing everything is "mature?"

I don't recall saying that, and I'm not even sure what it means.

The problem is, RJ, you and I have different perceptions as to what is appropriate and what is not, and what is mature and what is not.

Well, my opinion is that an adult should be able to deal with sexuality as a normal part of life, something not to be feared or loathed, but something to be enjoyed on a personal or artistic level, same as anything else.

I don't consider some of what you find to be appropriate to be "mature." Your implication is that if women (or society) is not comfortable with a level of sexuality that you are, then we're immature.

To a certain degree, simplistic as that is, you're correct.

Plus - you're on the "power" end of the equation. Try being a woman and being made to feel uncomfortable with unwanted attention. It. Sucks. It's not flattering or mature, it's, frankly, at times, unwanted and a pain in the ass.

We've already established that unwanted attention is something we should deal with. Nobody disagrees about that. The problem is the attitude that sexuality in and of itself is somehow degrading to women and creates a hostile attitude toward women. We have people complaining about the word "tits," pictures of breasts and beauty contests. Sexual harassment is a real problem; pictures of pretty girls are not sexual harassment.

Even women have differing levels of acceptance towards some of this behavior. No one, not even I, has all the answers or even the right answer. It's very annoying to hear you go on about maturity and how fucking Neanderthal we are because we don't all want to prance around naked or have the opposite sex leering at us, etc. You and I have had this discussion before and nothing has changed. You feel that those who are not as uninhibited as you are immature and that kind of attitude makes me very, very, angry, as a woman.

Yes, "as a woman." This is what makes me angry. I've given a number of examples of how my experience with women in the real world is at odds with attitudes on TrekBBS and it's like I'm typing in invisible ink. You do not speak for all women; in fact, the women I've known and worked with have quite different opinions-- go back and see my anecdote regarding Midwifery staff meetings that you neglected to quote before. In fact, I'll add an epilogue. One time, one of the Midwives came to my office and asked if they made me uncomfortable with the way they talked about men and sex. I told her it did not. Why? Because I'm a grown up.

Maturity is considering that others have different viewpoints towards the issue and trying to be as accommodating as is possible towards the feelings of others. It doesn't mean belittling others because they don't feel the same way that you do.

I haven't belittled anyone.

What I'm trying to do on the BBS is find a bit of a middle ground, where most will be comfortable. We can never please everyone, but we need to keep a majority happy as best we can. That is all we can do.

That's an entirely different matter. It's a business decision. Whatever censorship you or the owners choose to impose on the Board is within your rights and will be made according to the atmosphere you want to create. But that doesn't make it mature or correct.

Some women do want their cake and eat it to.

RJ is correct in this discussion. I may have been a child throughout most of the 70s, but I remember the way things were and how men were adamantly opposed to the changes in "the women's revolution".

Exactly. Some people conveniently forget that Women's Lib was part of the Sexual Revolution and that women were struggling hard to escape the sexual oppression of the past-- which some women now want to bring back.

 

[RJDiogenes]

As far as RJ goes, while he and I have different perspectives on what is acceptable behavior and what should be done about it, in talking with him and watching him post for several years I know that he is not sexist or misogynistic in the slightest. He fully believes in equality and inclusiveness for all, and it irritates me to see him depicted as something he is not, just as it does when it is directed toward me or the other mods. Just because he has different opinions on sexuality and expressing yourself online than others doesn't mean he approves of sexist behavior.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I've been exposed to plenty Locutus, I've been on the internet since '97.

There's one big difference between the comments section of youtubes and this forum: the whole purpose of my being on this forum is to read it. Yes of course youtubes comments are 1000 times worse than Trekbbs for sexism but I don't care about this because I don't have any expectations or standards for such things. This is a Trek forum and I have expectations of higher standards when I come here that of the usual online sewers. Being better than a sewer is not really something to pat yourself on the back about.

I'm not wishing to argue with you, just relaying my view of this board. I have ended up hanging out in Trekbbs forums that have the least amount of degrading, sexist commentary. Some of the forums are rife with it and not open to anyone disputing it, some are much more likely to knock such crap on the head.

The notification incident I brought up happened over a year ago (hey, it's my only experience in complaining so that's why I brought it up). I have no idea if you were a mod at the time. I do know that the atmosphere at the time was such that I assumed this was the norm and no one gave a shit, only later did I think that perhaps it was simply overlooked.

As to the "hugely sexist" description, you probably need a much higher percentage of sexism in your forum reading to use the adjective "hugely" than I do. For myself just knowing that browsing the Trekbbs over a cup of coffee my chances of running into it are fairly high on some forums is enough for me to use that adjective. YMMV.

 

[SiorX]

Honestly, when I read that I have to wonder if you've not been exposed to a lot of the internet, much less the comments section on any YouTube video featuring an attractive woman. While the problems people mention here are certainly serious, to call TrekBBS "hugely sexist" is completely unfair in my opinion. I know the incident you mention above colored your opinion, but I simply can't reconcile your opinion with my experiences on other forums and around the internet. TrekBBS is really quite tame when it comes to the wider internet.

With every respect, Locutus, "other places are worse" damns with faint praise. I don't think that the fact that there are other places on the Internet where unrelentingly vicious misogyny is ubiquitous is a counter to discussions of the culture here. I don't really think it's relevant. Except perhaps insofar as we all as human beings ought to think that that's an utterly fucked up way for the world to be.

I'm of the school of thought that change is best achieved through raising awareness. So just talking about this stuff can be productive if it can make people stop and think about things. teacake, something you said really struck me:

Sometimes I need a break from either certain forums or from the whole thing when I read too much of that guff. It's an excellent BBS, very well run otherwise, and I always return here but I'm aware that I'm in a potentially woman degrading zone while here. I know that's a scoff worthy statement to some.

I've done this too. There have been a number of times when a thread's taken a sexist turn, or there's been a run of dodgy threads, and I've just had to walk away from the board for a few days. Sometimes I feel like I ought to dive in and call out the sexism, because oftentimes I don't think it's deliberate. Sexism (like racism, or ableism, or homophobia) in our society is endemic, and therefore it can be difficult to see it if you haven't been on the receiving end. So challenging it might actually make somebody reading the thread think about some stuff we've all internalised and try to avoid it in future.

But the prospect of getting into an internet row about it sometimes is just too much effort to contemplate. Because I know what's personal for me is purely academic for many. So instead of calling it out, I just gaffiate for awhile.

What I'm wondering is, do other posters do this too?

ETA

Yes, "as a woman." This is what makes me angry. I've given a number of examples of how my experience with women in the real world is at odds with attitudes on TrekBBS and it's like I'm typing in invisible ink. You do not speak for all women; in fact, the women I've known and worked with have quite different opinions-- go back and see my anecdote regarding Midwifery staff meetings that you neglected to quote before. In fact, I'll add an epilogue. One time, one of the Midwives came to my office and asked if they made me uncomfortable with the way they talked about men and sex. I told her it did not. Why? Because I'm a grown up.

Because you're a grown up who doesn't have to live in a world where every single thing a member of your gender does is constantly weighed in the balance against his perceived fuckability.

Capable sportswoman. But is she hot? Actor in a sci-fi show. But is she hot? Upstanding politician on your side. But is she hot? Batshit politician on the other side. But is she hot? Defendent in a murder trial. But is she hot? Leader of a bizarre cult devoted to lobster-worship. But is she hot?

There's pretty much nowhere you can go to get away from it. It would be fine and dandy if we could all talk about sex and sexual attraction like grown ups. But the way public chatter about sex works in the here and now is not the same for men and women. It just isn't. Even if there are pockets where it goes the other way, like with your midwifes.

I'm not trying to say anything here about what you ought or ought not to do as a mod. Just that public discourse on sex has different strings attached for different demographics, and gender is a factor in that. Sometimes that's a relevant factor to consider.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

There's one big difference between the comments section of youtubes and this forum: the whole purpose of my being on this forum is to read it. Yes of course youtubes comments are 1000 times worse than Trekbbs for sexism but I don't care about this because I don't have any expectations or standards for such things. This is a Trek forum and I have expectations of higher standards when I come here that of the usual online sewers. Being better than a sewer is not really something to pat yourself on the back about.

Honestly, when I read that I have to wonder if you've not been exposed to a lot of the internet, much less the comments section on any YouTube video featuring an attractive woman. While the problems people mention here are certainly serious, to call TrekBBS "hugely sexist" is completely unfair in my opinion. I know the incident you mention above colored your opinion, but I simply can't reconcile your opinion with my experiences on other forums and around the internet. TrekBBS is really quite tame when it comes to the wider internet.

With every respect, Locutus, "other places are worse" damns with faint praise. I don't think that the fact that there are other places on the Internet where unrelentingly vicious misogyny is ubiquitous is a counter to discussions of the culture here. I don't really think it's relevant. Except perhaps insofar as we all as human beings ought to think that that's an utterly fucked up way for the world to be.

I'd appreciate it if either of you would direct me to the part of my post that said the issue of treatment of female posters on this board is not important or something that should not be discussed simply because there are worse places on the internet. I even said it's a serious issue in the section you quoted above.

The one and only issue the portion of my post you quoted and teacake responded to above dealt with was the accusation that TrekBBS is a "hugely sexist" place. I strongly disagreed and responded with an example of a place I do consider to be hugely sexist. Not as praise to TrekBBS, not to say the problems mentioned in this thread are unimportant, not to say they shouldn't be dealt with because YouTube is worse, and not to call for an end to this discussion; but in defense of this forum I enjoy from what I considered to be an unfair accusation.

If I considered this forum to be a hugely sexist (or racist, or homophobic) place I would quite simply not be involved with it, and it's more than a bit unfair to think accusations like that can be thrown around and should remain unchallenged.

I'm of the school of thought that change is best achieved through raising awareness. So just talking about this stuff can be productive if it can make people stop and think about things.

I agree completely, and have no problem with that. Unfortunately there's been a lot of misconstruing and misrepresenting of my own and other's opinions going on here that makes things a lot more difficult than they need to be. I also seem to need to re-qualify my position every post if I take any kind of middle ground between there being no problems at all and TrekBBS being a rotting cesspool of sexism.

 

[Deckerd]

If I considered this forum to be a hugely sexist (or racist, or homophobic) place I would quite simply not be involved with it, and it's more than a bit unfair to think accusations like that can be thrown around and should remain unchallenged.

So say we all.

I haven't taken part so far because I don't think this board is overtly sexist one way or the other. Furthermore I don't think most of the posters here would have any truck with it either if this had been the case. It's remarkably balanced considering the global nature of its membership.

 

[Emher]

^Agreed. The internationality of the community is an important factor, in spite of the fact that it's an American board and the majority of people on it are American. We have a lot of different values and viewpoint coming together here.

For instance, on the view of sexuality and nudity I as a Swede have a more liberal view then several Americans on this board might. Then again, it is terribly presumptuous of me to assume that my views are the same as other Swedes and Europeans on the board, as it is to assume the same with other males. And for some subject I have learned to seek to other communities, because not all can be discussed here, even though I'd love to discuss it with this community.

 

[Niorah]

Well, my opinion is that an adult should be able to deal with sexuality as a normal part of life, something not to be feared or loathed, but something to be enjoyed on a personal or artistic level, same as anything else.

I couldn't help but notice that you are quite missing the point. That is, the point Robert Maxwell was making, actually.

The issue here is -not- about sexuality.
It is about offence, insult, lack of respect.

There is a difference between sexuality and sexism.
What you do or think regarding sex and the birds and the bees in the comfort of your own home and/or relationship is your own business and nobody can tell you anything about it.
It is when somebody gets offended or feels insulted or objectified by the "improper" use of sexual terms, images, innuendos and the such that a problem occurs. And this I believe is the problem we are trying to address here.

I think the effort to make this place comfortable and enjoyable for all should fall on both sides. The mods should make it a point to pay attention in potentially sexist situations, of course. On the other side, since nobody is omnipotent, not even the mods, the posters should feel that they can in fact rely on the use of the notification system, with the certainty that whatever they are bringing to the attention of the staff will be considered, dealt with (if necessary) and that they at least will receive some feedback about it.

I remember notifying on a poster maybe a couple of years ago, nothing specific was done as far as warnings or bans go, but the mod who was dealing with the situation took the time to write me a PM and he actually cleared up a lot of the mechanics of the notification system for me and he addressed my specific notification too.
Another time, alas, I was not so lucky and maybe my notification got lost or something. Nothing happened and I wasn't even contacted to be told "You know, thanks for the notification, but we don't feel the situation needs to be addressed". I guess it's the luck of the draw. I can however sympathise with posters like teacake who can get a negative message out of such an occurrence.

In any case, the important thing is that this board remains a place where people can come and enjoy conversation, serious or silly as it may be, and the fact that so many still feel that there is an issue with sexism is a big neon sign.
As I said, I think teamwork would be the best solution, with a bit of tweaking along the way, as needed.

Just my two cents.

 

[An Officer]

I know I'll get bashed for this, and I'm prepared for that, but I do think it important to point out it would be helpful to allow women to post their feelings without having a mod come along and criticise their opinion ad nauseam with a foot long post. A response and difference of opinion is fine, after all, that's what dialogue is, but I do think some of what's been happening to posters here is overkill. I know that is not against board rules at all, but it is as though there is a want to shut these women up by embarrassing and ridiculing them because what they are saying is not welcome.

There are those who are speaking up about this for the first time, and no doubt still more reading who will think twice about posting because of the veiled intimidation those who have spoken so far are receiving. I don't see a problem when it is posters among themselves, but when a mod weighs in to ridicule a member, I don't think that's the best way to proceed. I will concede this may not be deliberate and merely a posting style, but it does have an effect.

 

[Jadzia]

If a problem is so minor that you can't even muster up the tremendous strength of will to push a button and type "this is sexist" or "this offends me" or "ooh, gross," then how worthy of moderation could it have possibly been?

Sometimes it really is about 'is it worth the effort'. I'm sure all of us, every day see things that aren't very nice. 99% of the time we don't make a fuss. We don't get involved. Nor do we want to be perceived as people who complain and moan all the time. We're culturally conditioned to just put up with things. Especially low level stuff. That's not to say we should.

...your continued assertion that we're lacking a female voice when dealing with notifications is very misleading to the other posters here.

That's mincing my words a bit. All moderators are free to give their opinion on a notification, as it is visible to all. But that's not my point.

I'll answer you with Alidar...

I think I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea that it's too small to notify, but a moderator is supposed to notice it and act on it.

Where I said "some free reign", I didn't mean like a chariot mowing down everyone who gets in her way. A female mod would see things from a female perspective. Things that a male mod may overlook because they have a naturally different perspective.

So this mod sees a thread is not very nice, and it's easy to post words to that effect, which instills in posters minds "You're a moderator. You're judging me. I didn't think how my words might be insulting".

Persistent, direct, low level action to deal with persistent low level things that are not nice.

And remember what I said about equilibrium.

 

[Deckerd]

I know I'll get bashed for this, and I'm prepared for that, but I do think it important to point out it would be helpful to allow women to post their feelings without having a mod come along and criticise their opinion ad nauseam with a foot long post. A response and difference of opinion is fine, after all, that's what dialogue is, but I do think some of what's been happening to posters here is overkill. I know that is not against board rules at all, but it is as though there is a want to shut these women up by embarrassing and ridiculing them because what they are saying is not welcome.

Are you suggesting that because some mods took exception to your comments, they are sexist simply because you're a female poster? Am I getting that right?