Why is the Trek community so negative about Voyager?

[exodus]

However, I think folks are starting to get overly emotional in here and for once I agree with kimc, that closing this thread is a good idea. All that's being said is Anwar this and Anwar that. If he & his POV bothers everyone so much, then take the advice, put him on "ignore" and be done with him. I'm sorry but It seems like folks are debating him and his mindset more than the actual show. I think thats what stj's point really was.

I don't think that's what stj's point was. And if I get tired of Anwar's POV I'll simply lose interest and leave this thread long before I feel the need to ignore him. In fact I've been told he can be reasonable when discussing other topics.

Posting here is a leisure activity. The fact that you think people are getting overly emotional is just another example of the G.I.F.T. I mentioned earlier.

So exodus, you tried to inject a modicum of common sense into this thread and got bashed for it. Now you see how the other half lives.

Seriously guys. I've seen posters getting warned by admin staff for comments like "If you believe xyz, i would question your intelligence." so believe it or not when I tell you to throttle back it's with good intentions. As you saw above I'll warn when I need to but otherwise I have better things to do with my time. I'm not the only staff member reading this thread. I understand what it's like to be passionate about a topic but it's not against board rules to be passionate and it's not against board rules to be rude. So you guys can go ahead and be as passionate and/or rude as you like. If you cross the line you'll get a warning. If it's a clusterf*ck the thread will be closed. It may or may not be me doing the deed. An alternative would be to just put the poster who is bothering you for whatever reason on "Ignore". Enough said.

For the love of God, Woman!
Lock the thread!

 

[exodus]

Now you see how the other half lives.

Are the snide comments really necessary?

An alternative would be to just put the poster who is bothering you for whatever reason on "Ignore". Enough said.

What is it you don't get about debate? I came in here because I've been watching Voyager re-runs daily on Channel One, and I fancied having a discussion or two about the show. This thread caught my eye and I started debating the points of the show I though were lacking, in a civil way. Why the hell would I want to put anyone on ignore when I'm trying to have a conversation with them? You seem to be under the impression that any debate that strays from the status quo is automatically bad.

I countered a point you made early on in the thread, and you basically swept it to one side without even debating the issue, because it didn't fit with your viewpoint, and then proceeded to wave the mod card around while talking about clusterfuck threads. Ever hear of "over-modding"?

It doesn't matter now.
By you going back at a MOD right out in the thread is a violation of board rules. So even if kimc was wrong, what you're doing puts her now in the right because you've broken the rules and put yourself in the wrong. You've made your own point moot and made her right by proving you don't obey rules, thus making yourself look like a problem in the eyes of those that had the power to support you.

I tried giving you advice before to cover your ass but....

 

[zar]

Why the hell would I want to put anyone on ignore when I'm trying to have a conversation with them?

I couldn't have put it better.

exodus, you are free to simply stop watching this thread. Why the backseat moderating?

kimc, there is no need to lock this. It was even on topic before you came in and started talking talking about clusterf*cks. I would prefer to keep it that way.


edit:

By you going back at a MOD right out in the thread is a violation of board rules. So even if kimc was wrong, what you're doing puts her now in the right

I don't see this anywhere in the rules. Why in the world would it be against the rules to criticize a moderator when it's okay to criticize anyone else? Are we in some medieval caste society?

You want to talk about rules? How about the one that says it's okay to criticize "as long as you actually back up what you say" (direct quote)? That's why we've been ranting against Anwar for the past 5 or so pages and why I even said he ought to be banned at one point -- he is constantly criticizing our criticisms by pulling "facts" about them out of his arse and refusing our repeated requests that he show us the quotes.

 

[exodus]

exodus, you are free to simply stop watching this thread. Why the backseat moderating?

Why do I have to leave because some can be considerate of others?

Some of us would like to talk about the topic and not be involved in a hostile post. Some of us have no interest in trying to make an example out of Anwar.

 

[zar]

Why do I have to leave

You don't have to, but judging by the fact that you told kimc to lock the thread, you want to. In other words you're suggesting everyone should be prohibited from using the thread just because you don't like it.

How many ways do I have to say, I don't give a shit about whatever issues you or others have with Anwar, I just wanna talk about the topic, before it actually sinks in?

Then for heaven's sake, talk about it. The reason most of the posts have been talking about Anwar lately is because he's the one being most active in the thread right now and so we've been replying mostly to his posts. We all want to talk about the topic just as much as you do, but we also reasonably expect people to back up what they say when we join a debate.

 

[TheGodBen]

I just want to make it clear that I think the mods are lovely. That's partly true, and partly me covering my own ass.

 

[exodus]

I just want to make it clear that I think the mods are lovely. That's partly true, and partly me covering my own ass.

How very diplomatic.

 

[zar]

The word "Hive MIND" was only used in First Contact."
They weren't always a Hive.

Well, it might not have been said so plainly until First Contact, but I think it was part of the concept from the beginning. They originally wanted the Borg to be an insect colony but that would have made it impossible to use actors.

I just want to make it clear that I think the mods are lovely.

Are you talking about physical beauty? That's what lovely means where I come from.

 

[exodus]

The word "Hive MIND" was only used in First Contact."
They weren't always a Hive.

Well, it might not have been said so plainly until First Contact, but I think it was part of the concept from the beginning. They originally wanted the Borg to be an insect colony but that would have made it impossible to use actors.

Doesn't Crusher refer to then as similar to a Bee Colony in "Q Who?" or "BOBW"?

 

[number6]

I just want to make it clear that I think the mods are lovely. That's partly true, and partly me covering my own ass.

I think they're quite lovely.. I just wish they'd honour my requests for lingerie photos.

 

[kimc]

I countered a point you made early on in the thread, and you basically swept it to one side without even debating the issue, because it didn't fit with your viewpoint,

If you want to call my not agreeing with you because you failed to make your point "sweeping aside" then okay, I swept it aside.

For the love of God, Woman!
Lock the thread!

I don't think that's necessary now especially if we get back to topic.

I just want to make it clear that I think the mods are lovely. That's partly true, and partly me covering my own ass.

I think they're quite lovely.. I just wish they'd honour my requests for lingerie photos.

Well if you're really nice to akiraprise he may pose for you.

iI anyone else has anything unrelated to this thread then feel free to pm either myself or akiraprise.

Now let's get back to topic...

 

[number6]

I was talking about Akiraprise. I would rather see you in full victorian mode with a sweet leather corsette.



Oh and I don't understand the blind hatred towards VOY or the condesending attitude toward its fans. When VOY was on the air, they had as many loyal fans as any other Star Trek show and it was a nice crossection of cultural and intellectual diversity.

 

[Saquist]

The word "Hive MIND" was only used in First Contact."
They weren't always a Hive.

Well, it might not have been said so plainly until First Contact, but I think it was part of the concept from the beginning. They originally wanted the Borg to be an insect colony but that would have made it impossible to use actors.

According to an interview and what I've just read on Memory Alpha the "hive" mentality was never intended for the Borg. Apparently the Borg were supposed to be the invading force in the eariler episode of TNG called CONSPIRACY. At that time they were supposed to organic parisites but that role changed and the CONSPIRACY cliff hanger went unresolved.

The writers of First Contact were going to stay truthful to the Borg laid out in TNG but the faceless enemy was deemed to difficult to depict so a queen was given. Like I said before...a Hive Mind is singular consciousness but a Collective Consciousness is the exact opposite of that. They share thoughts.

How many times have you seen Trek display the idea of the Collective consciousness with voices in their heads. Seven when she lost her identity admist all the mingled thoughts of the Vinculum. To tell you the truth the two ideas are both part of the Borg and are thus a Primary Contradiction brought by First Contact. Memory Alpha notes this and other clashing ideas.

 

[stj]

If the thread is now back on topic, at least as narrowly construed, the answer to the question (reading Trek community as this bbs,) is a combination of things.

1.Voyager wasn't serialized.
2. Voyager wasn't DS9.
3. Ron Moore did a hatchet job on Voyager and his admirers fell for it.
4. Woman captain.

The only valid complaint is the first. Voyager was episodic. And lots of people are convinced that serialization is superior.

 

[kimc]

I was talking about Akiraprise. I would rather see you in full victorian mode with a sweet leather corsette.

Sorry, I lent my corsette to Udat.

Oh and I don't understand the blind hatred towards VOY or the condesending attitude toward its fans. When VOY was on the air, they had as many loyal fans as any other Star Trek show and it was a nice crossection of cultural and intellectual diversity.

I consider myself a fan but all the same can go on about some of it's faults as most here know. The thing is I can see both points of view here. As a Janeway fan who gets tired of stuff I can understand the desire to defend a beloved show or character. Also as a Janeway fan - a group that has been given some not so nice names - I can see how DS9 fans are tired of being called "hater" or whatever.

More on topic I don't believe the Trek community as a whole is negative about Voyager. While there are some who flat out don't like the show even most who see the flaws have a fondness for it. Heck, even those who consider themselves "haters" can have a change of heart after sitting down and giving it a fair shot. Right, TheGodBen?

 

[kimc]

If the thread is now back on topic, at least as narrowly construed, the answer to the question (reading Trek community as this bbs,) is a combination of things.

1.Voyager wasn't serialized.
2. Voyager wasn't DS9.
3. Ron Moore did a hatchet job on Voyager and his admirers fell for it.
4. Woman captain.

The only valid complaint is the first. Voyager was episodic. And lots of people are convinced that serialization is superior.

While I love nuBSG and Lost and both were serialized I'm not convinced serialization is necessarily "superior". TOS was good enough to start this whole thing and it was episodic.

As for DS9 the fact it wasn't episodic meant I couldn't get back into it when real life distracted me from being a regular viewer. This is where Voyager had an advantage.

Ron Moore only did a few episodes of Voyager so have to agree with you there.

Disagree on the woman captain thing (no, it doesn't apply to everybody) but that could really be its own thread.

 

[Anwar]

The writers of First Contact were going to stay truthful to the Borg laid out in TNG but the faceless enemy was deemed to difficult to depict so a queen was given. Like I said before...a Hive Mind is singular consciousness but a Collective Consciousness is the exact opposite of that. They share thoughts.

The Borg were always a Hive Mind though. A Collective Consciousness would mean that each Borg would have the ability to talk and make their own decisions without the big Voice speaking, and that isn't what TNG showed.

How many times have you seen Trek display the idea of the Collective consciousness with voices in their heads. Seven when she lost her identity admist all the mingled thoughts of the Vinculum. To tell you the truth the two ideas are both part of the Borg and are thus a Primary Contradiction brought by First Contact. Memory Alpha notes this and other clashing ideas.

If they WERE a Collective the way you say they are, they'd be a lot more interesting because it would mean that we could have Borg who talked, could think, and perform actions separate from their group. But that's not how they were conceived.

And if VOY or FC had tried to change them into that, make them interesting, then it wouldn't have gone over well and they'd have to go back to the boring "One Voice commands all" schtick.

As for genuine criticisms:

The only valid complaint is the first. Voyager was episodic. And lots of people are convinced that serialization is superior

My problem isn't that VOY was episodic. It was that they couldn't figure out (or weren't allowed to find out) what kind of atmosphere a VOY episode should have. If VOY had its own distinct way of telling a story that wasn't like a TNG episode, then it wouldn't have mattered if the show was episodic. What the complaint REALLY is, is that VOY didn't do enough (or wasn't allowed) to create its own distinct identity compared to other Trek shows.

Even ENT got to do that, eventually.

Though frankly, the kind of stories folks were expecting would have been too expensive back in 1995. If the show was made in 2000 when stuff like CGI was cheaper, and they had more props leftover from DS9 to re-use and alter, then the kind of things like ship damage and internal set changes would've been more economical and thus allowed by Paramount.

EDIT: The Woman Captain thing was understandable. The first woman Captain in Trek to get her own show and most of it would be about how she can't control her crew and "passengers". It would have seemed borderline offensive. This may have been averted if the Maquis leader was also a woman.

 

[number6]

I thought Janeway was certainly shortchanged by the mandates of the studio on the writing staff, but I thought Janeway was a great Starfleet Captain. I don't like how she was written a lot of time, but that's more of an issue with the series in general and how it got tweeked by UPN to fit their endlessly changing target demo.

I couldn't stand Paris, Torres and Kim. They were whiny histrionic bitches a lot of the time, but you can't deny the character moments they had. The Captain Proton episodes were great, as was Faces with Torres facing her Klingon side and Kim in Eminations.. But they were soooooo whiny.

Neelix could have been a lovable rogue, but was kinda creepy. The Doctor had some great moments right up until around season 6-7..where it was kinda silly..

I thought Kes was awesome when she was given something to do, as was Chakotay. I thought Tuvok was consistantly badass and had no problem with 7o9 until the singing lessons and the borg kiddies..

 

[kimc]

Though frankly, the kind of stories folks were expecting would have been too expensive back in 1995. If the show was made in 2000 when stuff like CGI was cheaper, and they had more props leftover from DS9 to re-use and alter, then the kind of things like ship damage and internal set changes would've been more economical and thus allowed by Paramount.

True. While there was a bit of CGI if Voyager were just getting started today they would have been able to add some amazing stuff.

 

[number6]

Though frankly, the kind of stories folks were expecting would have been too expensive back in 1995. If the show was made in 2000 when stuff like CGI was cheaper, and they had more props leftover from DS9 to re-use and alter, then the kind of things like ship damage and internal set changes would've been more economical and thus allowed by Paramount.

True. While there was a bit of CGI if Voyager were just getting started today they would have been able to add some amazing stuff.

It had nothing to do with budget, in terms of showing damage to the ship.. UPN wanted the show to be episodic and to keep the episodes more or less self contained for future syndication. They were the ones who vetoed the Year of Hell as originally conceived by the writing staff.