Why is the Trek community so negative about Voyager?

[Anwar]

The other shows had better character development. Voyager used the reset button far to often.

We're not even talking about characters here, we're talking about how unpleasable the audience was in most other plot points. They wanted better developed enemies, but when they had the Kazon show up for 2 years all they did was complain that the Kazon kept showing up. When the 8472 showed up and showed they were capable of defeating the Borg, the audience complained that a species capable of defeating the Borg existed. When VOY found a way of communicating with the Alpha Quadrant and this meant that the writers were finally doing some big changes to the status quo, the audience complained this just ruined the premise even though a major complain was how there were no carried over plots.

Traumatic experiences were often dealt with by the end of the episode, and forgotten about by the next. Take the Doctor, for example; even as my favourite character on the show, and arguably one of the best developed, he still suffered from the effects of the reset button. In "Latent Image", he goes through an incredibly traumatic experience, one that changes him in a big way, and is a defining point in his development as a self-aware, sentient piece of A.I. The episode ends with him in the holodeck, struggling with his conscience, yet by the next episode, it's forgotten about and everything is back to normal. We're just expected to figure that he got over it and went on with his day. Sorry, but that's sloppy as hell, and is only one of many examples of missed opportunities and poor characterisation

Given how PO'ed the audience was over the show doing recurring stuff, if they spent the rest of the season with the Doc being a mess who couldn't make choices Doctors are expected to make then the audience would just complain that the Doc was emasculated.

 

[TheGodBen]

I'm going to assume you're joking with the Lizards are stupid but Susperia is magical and not stupid thing.

I have never been known to make a joke in my entire time on this website.

Susperia isn't literally magical, she's one of those beings that falls under Clarke's Third Law, just like Trelane, Q, or that talking lump of poo that brought Abraham Lincoln back to life so that he could have a fight to the death with Genghis Khan. And to be frank, your claim that Susperia wouldn't be able to traverse the galaxy in an instant doesn't make sense, because that's how the bloody show started! Are you saying that the Caretaker pulling Voyager across the galaxy in an instant is okay, but Susperia doing the same thing would be silly? I assume that you're the one making a joke now, yes? Congratulations, it was very droll.

IMO if I can except Jello can talk and take my image, then lizard babies isn't hard to accept.

Except humans aren't shapeshifters, our bodies aren't designed to take new forms, and the episode had a completely erroneous version of evolution that seemed to think we're evolving towards something.

Saying a transporter is used to save time & money doesn't address that the much of the science within Trek is BS, thus still keeping inline with the absurd as Lizard evolution.

I don't deny that much of Trek tech is likely impossible, but it's a question of degrees of absurdity. I'm willing to accept a transporter because it's an interesting concept, and it's very rare that an episode would focus on it. The problem with Threshold is that the episode is about the science, it's about how technological progress leads to devolution, but the way in which technological progress and devolution are depicted are so absurd as to break the willing suspension of disbelief. If the episode had taken a more restrained approach, it wouldn't have the reputation that it does, but it went all out with stupidity like Tom spitting out his tongue, so don't be surprised when people treat that episode with a more critical eye.

 

[Char Aznable]

[We're not even talking about characters here, we're talking about how unpleasable the audience was in most other plot points.

Jesus fucking Christ . . .

They wanted better developed enemies, but when they had the Kazon show up for 2 years all they did was complain that the Kazon kept showing up.

No, people complained about them because they were lame and kept showing up.

When the 8472 showed up and showed they were capable of defeating the Borg, the audience complained that a species capable of defeating the Borg existed.

I was under the impression that myself and others had proven that you were full of shit in regards to this matter. My mistake, unless you have actual evidence to back up these, "points."

When VOY found a way of communicating with the Alpha Quadrant and this meant that the writers were finally doing some big changes to the status quo, the audience complained this just ruined the premise even though a major complain was how there were no carried over plots.

Just because actual people wanted plots that carried over doesn't mean they have to give VOY a gold star every time they try it. A shitty plot point is still shitty.

Given how PO'ed the audience was over the show doing recurring stuff, if they spent the rest of the season with the Doc being a mess who couldn't make choices Doctors are expected to make then the audience would just complain that the Doc was emasculated.

Considering the Doctor was typically the most popular character in the series (largely BECAUSE he developed) I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Stop making things up. Now. Seriously.

 

[Servo]

The other shows had better character development. Voyager used the reset button far to often.

We're not even talking about characters here, we're talking about how unpleasable the audience was in most other plot points. They wanted better developed enemies, but when they had the Kazon show up for 2 years all they did was complain that the Kazon kept showing up. When the 8472 showed up and showed they were capable of defeating the Borg, the audience complained that a species capable of defeating the Borg existed. When VOY found a way of communicating with the Alpha Quadrant and this meant that the writers were finally doing some big changes to the status quo, the audience complained this just ruined the premise even though a major complain was how there were no carried over plots.

Traumatic experiences were often dealt with by the end of the episode, and forgotten about by the next. Take the Doctor, for example; even as my favourite character on the show, and arguably one of the best developed, he still suffered from the effects of the reset button. In "Latent Image", he goes through an incredibly traumatic experience, one that changes him in a big way, and is a defining point in his development as a self-aware, sentient piece of A.I. The episode ends with him in the holodeck, struggling with his conscience, yet by the next episode, it's forgotten about and everything is back to normal. We're just expected to figure that he got over it and went on with his day. Sorry, but that's sloppy as hell, and is only one of many examples of missed opportunities and poor characterisation

Given how PO'ed the audience was over the show doing recurring stuff, if they spent the rest of the season with the Doc being a mess who couldn't make choices Doctors are expected to make then the audience would just complain that the Doc was emasculated.

You're just countering here with sweeping generalisations and speculation. You're trying to tell us how the audience would have reacted to a hypothetical situation that never occured. What exactly is your frame of reference for that?

Sorry, but if Voyager had anywhere near the depth and consistency that TNG and DS9's writing had, it wouldn't get half the flak it does.

As for the example I gave with the Doctor; I wasn't saying that he should have been a mess for the rest of the season, but at least acknowledge the trauma he went through, and show how it affected his character, instead of sweeping under the rug one of the best episodes of the show so they could carry on as normal the following week.

That's where Voyager fell down; it had some great character moments, but at the end of the day, that's all they were - moments. They were very rarely expanded upon for more than one or two episodes.

TNG managed to develop its characters over the seven years, and they were a weekly exploration show. The only difference was that they had the advantage of including the characters families due to them still being in the Alpha Quadrant. Sure, Voyager wouldn't have been able to pull off an episode like TNG'S "Family", but good writers can find a way around that.

At the end of the day, Voyager is a fun show, with some great standout episodes, but as an overall series, its sadly lacking.

 

[Char Aznable]

Its only lacking because us cruel, heartless DS9 fans were secretly plotting to sabataage the show! They aren't eating each other, what the fuck kind of show is this?! They should be pirate ninja rapist cannibals like on DS9! Now THERE'S a series with balls!

 

[Anwar]

Jesus fucking Christ . . .

VOY had the most unpleasable audience out of all the Trek shows, fact.

No, people complained about them because they were lame and kept showing up.

The Vidiians get the same flak and they were more liked as a species, so the point stands that the audience wanted recurring aliens and just complained when they got them. Kazon, Vidiians, Hirogen, etc.

I was under the impression that myself and others had proven that you were full of shit in regards to this matter. My mistake, unless you have actual evidence to back up these, "points."

The 8472 were liked when the audience thought they'd be the start of some kind of 100-part mega-storyline that would take over the entire series, and stopped liking them when they realized it was just a 2-parter to get the Borg out of the way (which had to be done). You even admitted it when you said that you thought the 8472 were the start of something epic.

Just because actual people wanted plots that carried over doesn't mean they have to give VOY a gold star every time they try it. A shitty plot point is still shitty.

It's another case of wanting something and hating it when they get it. And if all the writers get is negativity for anything they tried, of COURSE they're going to stop. Why bother working your @$$ off when all you get is sh*t?

Considering the Doctor was typically the most popular character in the series (largely BECAUSE he developed) I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Stop making things up. Now. Seriously.

The Doctor was a liked character, meaning that if they do something bad to him and he's affected by to the point he's just contemplating his navel for a season instead of being the snarky semi-jerk he usually was they'd just complain that they changed his personality and he's not the snarky guy they liked before even if the trauma he endured would logically change him. "Character Development" and all that, of course. That's the problem when you have a character people like, and your audience already hates the rest of the show. Because any attempts at "development" run the risk of making them not like the character anymore.

 

[TheGodBen]

Its only lacking because us cruel, heartless DS9 fans were secretly plotting to sabataage the show! They aren't eating each other, what the fuck kind of show is this?! They should be pirate ninja rapist cannibals like on DS9! Now THERE'S a series with balls!

No, you don't understand: Because there was no pirate ninja rapist cannibals on DS9, we're guilty of a double standard! Can't you see the truth?!

 

[Servo]

VOY had the most unpleasable audience out of all the Trek shows, fact.

Got a source for this "fact"? You repeating it ad nauseum doesn't make it true. In fact, being that it's part of the Trek franchise, and despite people complaining about it, it likely had the same audience as TNG and DS9. It's only people like you, and a few hardcore DS9 fans, who insist on splitting fandom into neat little factions. The rest of us are perfectly capable of enjoying the shows, while also being objective about them.

The Doctor was a liked character, meaning that if they do something bad to him and he's affected by to the point he's just contemplating his navel for a season instead of being the snarky semi-jerk he usually was they'd just complain that they changed his personality and he's not the snarky guy they liked before even if the trauma he endured would logically change him. "Character Development" and all that, of course.

You have no basis for that assertion at all. Just because he was a liked character, doesn't automatically mean that any changes would be recieved negatively, as long as they weren't radical personality changes, and as long as they are done well. Your speculation here proves nothing except how small minded and assumptive you are about Trek fandom.

 

[Anwar]

I do agree with Servo that there wasn't enough consistency, and I don't mean in quality of episodes but in individual characterization. Even if there were crappy episodes they might've gone over better as long as the writers remembered that the characters had to be consistent.

 

[Anwar]

You have no basis for that assertion at all. Just because he was a liked character, doesn't automatically mean that any changes would be recieved negatively, as long as they weren't radical personality changes, and as long as they are done well.

But that's the crux of the matter, "radical personality changes" and "development done well" are very, VERY subjective terms and two people can easily have totally differing views on which is which. What exactly is development "done well" and which is done badly? What is a "radical personality change"? I mean, if I have a character that I enjoy and the show gradually turns him into someone else I do not enjoy and/or they get rid of the cast I started off with and by the end of the show it's helmed entirely by different people I can't say I'd really enjoy that.

Your speculation here proves nothing except how small minded and assumptive you are about Trek fandom.

Put up with what I had to put with for 15 years of defending VOY and you'll see what the worst the fandom has to offer is REALLY like.

 

[exodus]

I'm going to assume you're joking with the Lizards are stupid but Susperia is magical and not stupid thing.

I have never been known to make a joke in my entire time on this website.

Susperia isn't literally magical, she's one of those beings that falls under Clarke's Third Law, just like Trelane, Q, or that talking lump of poo that brought Abraham Lincoln back to life so that he could have a fight to the death with Genghis Khan. And to be frank, your claim that Susperia wouldn't be able to traverse the galaxy in an instant doesn't make sense, because that's how the bloody show started! Are you saying that the Caretaker pulling Voyager across the galaxy in an instant is okay, but Susperia doing the same thing would be silly? I assume that you're the one making a joke now, yes? Congratulations, it was very droll.

I can see where your confusion begins.
I used the word "cliche" when describing Suspria transversing space to make a full circle ending.
I used "silly" & "stupid" to description of Susperia being magical.
I also didn't make any such claim, my post said many "others" take issue with.....
I didn't say anything of my own personal view point.
However, I will say that I don't get the complaint from others about how Voyager didn't take any creative risks but then we desire a full circle ending like the other Treks before it got.

So there was no joke but I'm amused just the same.

 

[Servo]

But that's the crux of the matter, "radical personality changes" and "development done well" are very, VERY subjective terms and two people can easily have totally differing views on which is which. What exactly is development "done well" and which is done badly? What is a "radical personality change"? I mean, if I have a character that I enjoy and the show gradually turns him into someone else I do not enjoy and/or they get rid of the cast I started off with and by the end of the show it's helmed entirely by different people I can't say I'd really enjoy that.

Radical personality change is exactly what it sounds like; changing the core personality of a character into something completely different. "Done well" is when a charcter's personality changes are subtle, and as a result of the experiences of the character throughout the course of the show. They could have quite easily incorporated the Doctor's traumatic experience into his charcter in subtle ways, and shown over a few episodes how he was dealing with the ramifications. They didn't, they simply went back to business as usual the week after, because the story didn't call for a shift in the Doctor's personality.

One of the real problems with Voyager was that any development of a significant nature was done to facilitate the story of the week, rather than being done to progress the characters at the centre of the story, without whom the story is meaningless because it's harder to care about the characters if they become too rigid.

Put up with what I had to put with for 15 years of defending VOY and you'll see what the worst the fandom has to offer is REALLY like.

Exactly. The worst of fandom. Everything has a "worst" side, and it's usually a rather small, if vocal, minority. Yet here you are making sweeping generalisations about the entire audience. Not exactly fair.

 

[zar]

Anwar:

When compared to other shows, Doctor Who and Farscape are among the ones often used as counter-examples.

If you actually have legitimate points to make about fan criticism, you should be able to make them without comparing them to alleged criticism of other shows said critics may or may not have even watched. What we think of other shows has no bearing at all on the validity of the criticisms themselves. If your points can't stand on their own, they're worthless.

then the Feds can never catch up to the Borg and their weapons will never be effective anymore than they were in BOBW

Precisely. What you don't seem to understand though, is that this means something completely different than ineffective, because they weren't invincible in BOBW, or any other time. They were defeatable, just as Klingons and Romulans were. No matter what time period a Star Trek is set in, the enemies will always be a roughly equal threat because their powers scale with each other. VOY made the Borg an exception to this rule, and you're defending that on two levels: first that it's good storytelling, second that it makes logical sense given the nature of the Borg. Both claims are nonsense.

... would mean they'd stay at least 3 steps ahead of everyone.

Again, precisely. That's the point. An enemy that is 3 steps ahead of your hero is far more compelling than one that's at an obvious disadvantage from the start. Again, they were still defeatable despite having the advantage.

Naturally, in DS9 when they had the Feds get past the Dominion's advantages of polarion beams no one complained that the Dominion's weapon tech never developed shield-piercing beams that could surpass the Fed's new shields.

First, this is oversimplification. They didn't "get past the advantages". Small victories didn't change the fact that the Dominion was still "always 3 steps ahead". Starfleet was still on the losing side of the war right up to the end. Honestly, if you want to make a comparison to another enemy that was "dumbed down" in Star Trek, the Dominion is probably the worst example you could have come up with.

Second, this is irrelevant, as explained in the first paragraph of this post.



exodus:

I for one thank God that Voyager didn't fall back on the cliche that it had to come full circle in it's ending.

It's not a cliche, it's the first rule of good writing. It's taught to middle school students in essay writing class. Maybe you don't like how TNG and DS9 executed that rule, but that doesn't mean VOY deserves praise for completely ignoring it. The only loose end they tied up was the obvious one of getting home, and at the end of it home is onscreen for a grand total of two seconds before it's covered by the closing credits.

As far as why something a dumb Threshold was produced, it's science fiction.
Most of it, even much of the science of Trek is bullshit anyway.

Except they not only screwed up real science, but their own invented science.

I doubt they ever expected us to take that episode as seriously as some do.

Which "they"? Rick Sternbach (technical consultant) hates the episode for so grossly distorting both real and fake science. Brannon Braga (writer) is embarrassed by it and calls it "terrible". It made Kate Mulgrew uncomfortable and Robert Duncan McNeill was so dumbfounded he insisted on rewriting part of it.

I'm a sucker for that kind of "Book End" stuff. It's why when I did my VOY rewrite, I had the final villain (in fact, the villain who was behind most of the bad stuff in the entire show) be the Female Caretaker.

That's exactly why I don't like it for Voyager.

Many questioned how/why did the Kazon, Hirogen, Talaxians & Borg keep popping up on Voyager great distances away, whee folks felt they shouldn't be. Yet Susperia has followed them to the other end on the quaderant all this time?

Seriously?

Um... considering the Caretaker was the cause of them being on the other end of the quadrant in the first place, why is it unbelievable that one of them would be able to cross merely half that distance (since Voyager had already made it halfway back themselves over 7 years) on her own? Kazon, Hirogen, and Talaxians didn't have that ability. The Borg had transwarp, but the fact that they were able to keep up with Voyager wasn't the reason people had a problem with the Borg being overused.



number6:

*Snip*

Ok, now I know you're just a hater.

It took you that long to figure that out??

I hated B5.

I thought it sucked harder than a methaddicted trailer trash whore.

I pointed out what I thought was good about it and gave you my reasons for not liking it. I couldn't make my position any clearer.

The difference is that I don't loiter around B5 discussion forums and tell them how much their show sucked and how mindless and chromasome deficient they are for thinking it's great.

I haven't had a chance to read every single post in this thread, so could you point out for me the one where we said VOY sucks harder than a meth-addicted trailer trash whore and how chromosome-deficient everyone else is for thinking it's great? This thread is here specifically asking for the negative criticisms we have about Voyager, and we gave them... 45 pages later the inevitable arguing that incited still hasn't degenerated into mindless childish insult-slinging, and we're miraculously still on the same topic more or less. Except...


Anwar:

The creative sterility was a Voyager invention (a hated one)

VOY's audience was seriously unpleasable

and nobody complained.

no one will care.

but no one cared.

we're talking about how unpleasable the audience was

the audience complained that a species capable of defeating the Borg existed.

how PO'ed the audience was over the show doing recurring stuff,

then the audience would just complain that the Doc was emasculated.

VOY had the most unpleasable audience out of all the Trek shows, fact.

the audience wanted recurring aliens and just complained when they got them.

the audience thought they'd be the start of some kind of 100-part mega-storyline that would take over the entire series,

they'd just complain that they changed his personality

your audience already hates the rest of the show.

Bloody hell. Stop. STOP. This isn't conversation, this isn't debate, it's slander. And it has gone on far too long to be tolerated. You ought to be banned for constantly, constantly putting words in "the audience"'s mouths. Don't post another word about what "we" say unless you have a quote to back it up. Seriously. Enough is enough.

 

[exodus]

exodus:It's not a cliche, it's the first rule of good writing. It's taught to middle school students in essay writing class. Maybe you don't like how TNG and DS9 executed that rule, but that doesn't mean VOY deserves praise for completely ignoring it.

This assumption is incorrect as I've already given reasons why I call it cliche.

 

[Anwar]

Precisely. What you don't seem to understand though, is that this means something completely different than ineffective, because they weren't invincible in BOBW, or any other time.

The only time they were beatable was in "Q Who?" and "First Contact". In BOBW not a single weapon that Starfleet had could even SCRATCH the Cube except that one phaser frequency that was useless after one shot.

They were defeatable, just as Klingons and Romulans were. No matter what time period a Star Trek is set in, the enemies will always be a roughly equal threat because their powers scale with each other.

The only way to defeat the overpowered TNG Borg was via plot contrivance like "Sleep". There was the solar flare victory but that's double standard since they didn't like it when VOY tried stuff like that.

VOY made the Borg an exception to this rule, and you're defending that on two levels: first that it's good storytelling, second that it makes logical sense given the nature of the Borg. Both claims are nonsense.

VOY got their hands on much more Borg technology and information than anyone else in Starfleet. What's the point of them doing that if they weren't going to use it to make themselves better at surviving the Borg? "Basic Continuity", right?

And no other enemy got "dumbed down" the way the Borg were because the writers were smart enough not to repeat their mistake and make any other enemy that overpowered to begin with.

Again, precisely. That's the point. An enemy that is 3 steps ahead of your hero is far more compelling than one that's at an obvious disadvantage from the start.

Only if you use them ONCE and ONCE alone in a major capacity. Did TOS ever re-use V'Ger, or the Whale Probe, or the Vampire Cloud, or the Space Amoeba? Did TNG ever reveal there was more than one Crystalline Entity, or use the Edo "God" again? No, both these shows realize that such overpowered entities were one-shots. They failed to realize it with the Borg.

Again, they were still defeatable despite having the advantage.

Only through un-repeatable plot contrivance. The Klingons and Romulans can be out-witted (as they are individuals), escaped from (since they aren't faster than the Feds) or just blasted apart (because they aren't overpowered). None of that can be used in a Borg encounter. There's a reason why TNG only used the Collective as an invading foe ONCE, they also realized that they just weren't any good after that. But they wussed out and kept them around when they should've realized how sterile the Borg were as a concept and just killed them all in BOBW.

First, this is oversimplification. They didn't "get past the advantages". Small victories didn't change the fact that the Dominion was still "always 3 steps ahead". Starfleet was still on the losing side of the war right up to the end.

The Dominion was only one step ahead, and after the major advantage was gone they still had numbers. This IS just another double standard case, because at first the Dominion could destroy a Galaxy-Class starship with just 3 Big fighters but after that we saw Galaxy-classes blow up Big fighters in a single shot.

Honestly, if you want to make a comparison to another enemy that was "dumbed down" in Star Trek, the Dominion is probably the worst example you could have come up with.

I'm using the Dominion as an example of how to create a recurring foe, along with the Cardassians. Step one, DO NOT MAKE THEM BORG OVERPOWERED.

The Borg had transwarp, but the fact that they were able to keep up with Voyager wasn't the reason people had a problem with the Borg being overused.

Bloody hell. Stop. STOP. This isn't conversation, this isn't debate, it's slander.

The audience wanted recurring aliens. Do you disagree?

The audience expected to see the Borg in the DQ, do you agree?

Farscape is about a ship that travels alone while being hunted by aliens that keep showing up despite the ship being on the move, do you agree?

DS9 created the Dominion, gave them advantages, then had the Feds easily overcome the Dominion's advantages to the point that the Dominion was no longer their superior but their equal. Do you disagree?

VOY's audience expected continuous serial storytelling, do you disagree?

TNG never said anything about the Borg being creatively sterile, do you disagree?

The Trek "fandom" is much, MUCH harsher on VOY than any other Trek show (which is how this post got STARTED), do you disagree?

And it has gone on far too long to be tolerated.

Now you know how I feel towards VOY bashing. Except you haven't had to deal with it for 15 years.

 

[zar]

... except that one phaser frequency that was useless after one shot.

Yep, again, exactly. The concept of the Borg was set up such that they could always theoretically be beaten, as long as you don't use the same tactic more than once, because they adapt to it. Which is why it was a mistake to put such a disproportionate amount of Borg battles in VOY, because it's difficult to keep coming up with new tactics. The point is they weren't set up to be impossible to beat, only difficult. They could have remained a good enemy, but instead the writers overused them and just got lazy and had Voyager simply firing phasers and torpedoes like with any other enemy, with few exceptions. What I find incomprehensible is that you actually defend this, saying it makes logical sense that the Borg would become relatively weak and nonthreatening, while at the same time even you agree that they were overused.

This IS just another double standard case, because at first the Dominion could destroy a Galaxy-Class starship with just 3 Big fighters but after that we saw Galaxy-classes blow up Big fighters in a single shot.

You're confusing special-effects indulgences with actual overall representation of their threat. Your "double standard" comparisons are thin, desperate, and irrelevant.

Bloody hell. Stop. STOP. This isn't conversation, this isn't debate, it's slander.

The audience wanted recurring aliens. Do you disagree?

The audience expected to see the Borg in the DQ, do you agree?

Farscape is about a ship that travels alone while being hunted by aliens that keep showing up despite the ship being on the move, do you agree?

DS9 created the Dominion, gave them advantages, then had the Feds easily overcome the Dominion's advantages to the point that the Dominion was no longer their superior but their equal. Do you disagree?

VOY's audience expected continuous serial storytelling, do you disagree?

TNG never said anything about the Borg being creatively sterile, do you disagree?

The Trek "fandom" is much, MUCH harsher on VOY than any other Trek show (which is how this post got STARTED), do you disagree?

I disagree with half of that and agree provisionally with the other half. I don't give a shit about Farscape because I've never watched a single episode. None of this changes the fact that you continuously grossly misrepresent the opinions of your opponents, and it needs to stop. Don't reply to anything unless you have a direct quote from this thread.

Now you know how I feel towards VOY bashing. Except you haven't had to deal with it for 15 years.

And for all I know you've been making shit up for 15 years just like you do now. I've been a Trek fan for about that long, and I'm sure so have many of the others who have been staring at your posts with -ish faces. I think I/we have a much stronger grasp on what truly represents fandom. You come off as delusional. Stop making generalizations based on a fanatical minority of fandom which you have failed to prove even exists.

 

[Anwar]

Yep, again, exactly. The concept of the Borg was set up such that they could always theoretically be beaten, as long as you don't use the same tactic more than once, because they adapt to it. Which is why it was a mistake to put such a disproportionate amount of Borg battles in VOY, because it's difficult to keep coming up with new tactics.

The mistake was not killing off all the Borg in BOBW. "New tactics" are irrelevant, since there were only a few tactical options open in the first place. They already can't use conventional weapons anymore, they can't use a natural phenomenon like a solar flare anymore, what's left?

Here, I'll give you examples:

- If they SOMEHOW hacked the Collective (which they can't do, since it took both Data and Locutus/Picard and all VOY had was Seven) and ordered them to "Eat" (all drones began draining the power reserves at the same time instead of one group at a time, draining the ship dead) then the audience would just see it as a rip off of BOBW.

-If VOY somehow used a black hole to draw in a Borg ship, or if they used some kind of short-range wormhole device to teleport a Borg ship into a black hole or an energy storm or a star, then it would just be seen as a rip-off of "Descent".

- If VOY was on the verge of being destroyed by a Borg fleet, and there had been some arc of them looking for advanced technology left behind by some dead race happening at the same time, and an away team finds a defense system that when activated responds to their thoughts and utterly annihilates the Borg fleet down to the atom, the away team all dying in the process of activating said weapon and setting it to "Kill only Borg", then the outcry would be that this was pure Deus Ex Machina despite it being the whole point of the arc, and nothing, not even the sacrifice of said characters to save everyone else, would matter or count as "Consequences".

The point is they weren't set up to be impossible to beat, only difficult. They could have remained a good enemy, but instead the writers overused them and just got lazy and had Voyager simply firing phasers and torpedoes like with any other enemy, with few exceptions.

The only way to keep them a good enemy would be to never use them again after "Scorpion" (and the audience was already angry at VOY for having the Borg be beaten by the 8472 so they were already pissed). Which is just wussing out.

What I find incomprehensible is that you actually defend this, saying it makes logical sense that the Borg would become relatively weak and nonthreatening, while at the same time even you agree that they were overused.

I think the Borg were boring after TNG ended, I enjoyed FC for the battle scenes but the dead-end possibilities of future Borg encounters already sunk in to my mind by the end. I think they were improper as a recurring enemy in VOY (they're too BORING), but I know WHY they did it, and thus I understand why they became easier to beat. I already knew it was inevitable it would happen because they were already too dead-ended so I had little problem with it.

You're confusing special-effects indulgences with actual overall representation of their threat. Your "double standard" comparisons are thin, desperate, and irrelevant.

DS9 weakened the Dominion from how tough they were, only difference was that they had Federation cannon fodder to sacrifice in order to keep them intimidating, they made sure not to make the Dominion that much stronger to begin with, and they did it over a slower period of time. VOY didn't have DS9's advantages, so I accept it wouldn't happen the same way in VOY. And also, the Dominion was DS9's own creation so I know the audience would be more accepting of what DS9 did over VOY.

I've been a Trek fan for about that long, and I'm sure so have many of the others who have been staring at your posts with -ish faces.

The fandom has been more accustomed to VOY fans being the whipping boys of Trek, not bothering to fight back. THAT'S why they're staring, they're surprised anyone has backbone.

I think I/we have a much stronger grasp on what truly represents fandom. You come off as delusional. Stop making generalizations based on a fanatical minority of fandom which you have failed to prove even exists.

Hey, if VOY-haters didn't want anything to happen they shouldn't have started bashing the show in the first place and left us in peace to enjoy what we want to enjoy. flemm even said so several pages back.

 

[Char Aznable]

The only time they were beatable was in "Q Who?" and "First Contact". In BOBW not a single weapon that Starfleet had could even SCRATCH the Cube except that one phaser frequency that was useless after one shot.

Yeah, that's why the Borg assiminated the Earth in BOBW; Because they were unbeatable, right?

Oh, wait . . .

They were defeatable, just as Klingons and Romulans were. No matter what time period a Star Trek is set in, the enemies will always be a roughly equal threat because their powers scale with each other.

The only way to defeat the overpowered TNG Borg was via plot contrivance like "Sleep". There was the solar flare victory but that's double standard since they didn't like it when VOY tried stuff like that.[/quote]
cite examples now . . . stop making things up.

VOY got their hands on much more Borg technology and information than anyone else in Starfleet. What's the point of them doing that if they weren't going to use it to make themselves better at surviving the Borg? "Basic Continuity", right?

That's fine, but VOY just doesn't do a good job with things like that.

And no other enemy got "dumbed down" the way the Borg were because the writers were smart enough not to repeat their mistake and make any other enemy that overpowered to begin with.

Only if you use them ONCE and ONCE alone in a major capacity. Did TOS ever re-use V'Ger, or the Whale Probe, or the Vampire Cloud, or the Space Amoeba? Did TNG ever reveal there was more than one Crystalline Entity, or use the Edo "God" again? No, both these shows realize that such overpowered entities were one-shots. They failed to realize it with the Borg.

Yet there are plenty of success stories with the Cardies/Dominion, the Klingons, the Romulans, etc.

Only through un-repeatable plot contrivance. The Klingons and Romulans can be out-witted (as they are individuals), escaped from (since they aren't faster than the Feds) or just blasted apart (because they aren't overpowered). None of that can be used in a Borg encounter. There's a reason why TNG only used the Collective as an invading foe ONCE, they also realized that they just weren't any good after that. But they wussed out and kept them around when they should've realized how sterile the Borg were as a concept and just killed them all in BOBW.

No.

The Dominion was only one step ahead, and after the major advantage was gone they still had numbers. This IS just another double standard case, because at first the Dominion could destroy a Galaxy-Class starship with just 3 Big fighters but after that we saw Galaxy-classes blow up Big fighters in a single shot.

And that proves . . .?

I'm using the Dominion as an example of how to create a recurring foe, along with the Cardassians. Step one, DO NOT MAKE THEM BORG OVERPOWERED.

Step two, write competently. Something the VOY writers should have listened to . . .

The audience wanted recurring aliens. Do you disagree?

No shit.

The audience expected to see the Borg in the DQ, do you agree?

I don't see where anyone EXPECTED that.

Farscape is about a ship that travels alone while being hunted by aliens that keep showing up despite the ship being on the move, do you agree?

No one gives a fuck.

DS9 created the Dominion, gave them advantages, then had the Feds easily overcome the Dominion's advantages to the point that the Dominion was no longer their superior but their equal. Do you disagree?

They didn't easily do anything. The Federation was constantly fighting a losing battle until the end, despite obtaining victories here and there. Jesus . . .

VOY's audience expected continuous serial storytelling, do you disagree?

VOY's audience expected QUALITY storytelling at least, but some simple continuity would have been nice too.

TNG never said anything about the Borg being creatively sterile, do you disagree?

That's because the Borg weren't creatively sterile. The VOY writing staff were the sterile ones.

The Trek "fandom" is much, MUCH harsher on VOY than any other Trek show (which is how this post got STARTED), do you disagree?

Jesus Christ. I thought I told you to knock this shit off immediately. Stop being butthurt that people aren't verbally blowing your super special awesome favorite show.

Now you know how I feel towards VOY bashing. Except you haven't had to deal with it for 15 years.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH THE SHOW I LOVE ISN'T UNIVERSALLY LOVED BY EVERYONE! IT MUST BE A CONSPIRICY BY THOSE MEAN OLD NINERS WHO HATE ME! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!



EDIT:

Hey, if VOY-haters didn't want anything to happen they shouldn't have started bashing the show in the first place and left us in peace to enjoy what we want to enjoy. flemm even said so several pages back.

Well, excuse us. Sorry you're so insufferably butthurt that you can't take criticism of your favorite show.

The fandom has been more accustomed to VOY fans being the whipping boys of Trek, not bothering to fight back. THAT'S why they're staring, they're surprised anyone has backbone.

LOL, victim complex . . .

 

[Anwar]

Yeah, that's why the Borg assiminated the Earth in BOBW; Because they were unbeatable, right?

Oh, wait . . .

Plot contrivance victory.

cite examples now . . . stop making things up.

Of what?

That's fine, but VOY just doesn't do a good job with things like that.

"Boo-hoo, wah-wah, the Feds got their hands on Borg tech and learned how to defend themselves! I can't stand it!"

The Borg being that powerful in the first place was a mistake.

Yet there are plenty of success stories with the Cardies/Dominion, the Klingons, the Romulans, etc.

Because none of them were overpowered to start with.

No.

Yes, the Borg were done as an enemy after BOBW. They should have all died then and there.

And that proves . . .?

That DS9 weakened the Dominion and no one cared, pure double standard.

Step two, write competently. Something the VOY writers should have listened to . . .

Doesn't matter how good the writing is, if you were dumb enough to make an overpowered enemy in the first place.

No shit.

Well, you got them in the form of the Kazon, Vidiians, Hirogen, etc. And you hated all of them, unconditionally. Boo-hoo for not liking for getting what you want.

I don't see where anyone EXPECTED that.

It was stated that the Delta Quadrant was their home.

No one gives a fuck.

One show gets away with everyone the other is criticized for. Thus meaning that most criticisms of the show are invalid and simple bias.

They didn't easily do anything. The Federation was constantly fighting a losing battle until the end, despite obtaining victories here and there. Jesus . . .

They were losing until "Sacrifice of Angels", then it was equalized, then it was back-and-forth for a bit until the Breen and then it was near the end anyways. The Dominion were never the clearly superior force, just a BIT stronger than the Feds.

And yes, the main advantage the Dominion had were their shield-immune beams. The Feds overcame that before the war.

VOY's audience expected QUALITY storytelling at least, but some simple continuity would have been nice too.

Too bad VOY-haters don't know what "quality" is.

That's because the Borg weren't creatively sterile. The VOY writing staff were the sterile ones.

The Borg concept was what was sterile. There wasn't much left for them after BOBW.

Jesus Christ. I thought I told you to knock this shit off immediately. Stop being butthurt that people aren't verbally blowing your super special awesome favorite show.

It's not my fault you hate the show for simply existing.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH THE SHOW I LOVE ISN'T UNIVERSALLY LOVED BY EVERYONE! IT MUST BE A CONSPIRICY BY THOSE MEAN OLD NINERS WHO HATE ME! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

Nah, it's more like "Boo-hoo, wah-wah I can't take swipes at VOY anymore!". Thanks for further proving the "Niners hate Voyager" fact.

Well, excuse us. Sorry you're so insufferably butthurt that you can't take criticism of your favorite show.

Excuse me if Niners hate the show for no reason and can't stand it if anyone bothers calling them on it. If they didn't want to discuss it, they shouldn't have bashed the show to begin with.

LOL, victim complex . . .

VOY gets trashed for no reason, VOY defenders defend. Cause and effect, dude.

 

[zar]

The mistake was not killing off all the Borg in BOBW.

The only way to keep them a good enemy would be to never use them again after "Scorpion"

So which is it? Should they have been killed off after BOBW, or after Scorpion? But wait, in your previous post you compared them to the Crystalline Entity etc., saying they should have been a one-shot deal. So I guess they should have completely disappeared right there in Q Who?

You see, you are just proving my point that they could have done better, because they already did. If we were having this argument in the early nineties before anyone saw Scorpion or First Contact or anything else beyond Q Who, would you be arguing the same thing? Would you say it's impossible to come up with any other good Borg stories so they should just kill them all off?

... what's left? Here, I'll give you examples:

Now this is pure arrogance. You're assuming that the few examples you can come up are the only possibilities. Nobody else could ever write anything better! I don't buy that. In fact, many of those other "one-shots" do return in novels and fan-fics, and guess what -- they don't always suck.

and the audience was already angry at VOY for having the Borg be beaten by the 8472

I told you to stop that. Says who? Citation please. Quote it.

DS9 weakened the Dominion from how tough they were, only difference was that they had Federation cannon fodder to sacrifice in order to keep them intimidating

Oversimplification and irrelevant, once again.

the Dominion was DS9's own creation so I know the audience would be more accepting of what DS9 did over VOY.

Citation please.

The fandom has been more accustomed to VOY fans being the whipping boys of Trek, not bothering to fight back. THAT'S why they're staring, they're surprised anyone has backbone.

Citation?

Hey, if VOY-haters didn't want anything to happen they shouldn't have started bashing the show in the first place and left us in peace to enjoy what we want to enjoy.

What a silly cop-out. I can just as easily turn that around and say you should have left us "haters" in peace if you wanted to simply enjoy.

Besides, this makes no sense. How are we not leaving you in peace? You chose to enter the discussion as freely as I did and we both are free to leave it at any point. Obviously we're both here because we want to be.



edit:

Thanks for further proving the "Niners hate Voyager" fact.

...What?