Why is the Trek community so negative about Voyager?

[Anwar]

If he was played by a better actor, and was given a better role than...whatever the Hell Kim did on the bridge, then maybe. Why not make him Tuvok's assistant, or Security Liason to the Maquis, or something like that? At least with Data and Spock they were already interesting characters even without their Starfleet roles.

Maybe a recurring role as Paris' initial "Parole Officer" or something before moving him to a different post.

 

[nethskie]

Braga doesn't even deserve most of the flak he gets. He was only a showrunner on VOY for 2 seasons.

my favorite of all Star Trek is Voyager even though i've watched all the movies and series. Voyager became my inspiration even in art, logic, interest in computers and some other stuffs but i have to admit Voyager does have the worst one episode of all of Star Trek titled Threshold created by Brannon Braga. In the beginning of that episode they are trying to reach warp 10 it's getting interesting and then BUMMER Tom Paris and Janeway evolved to a slimy crawling creature and was restored by The Doctor i just hate it... it just sucks most of the people lost interest on Voyager because of this episode i'm an open minded person so it's just forgive and forget

 

[darkwing_duck1]

If he was played by a better actor, and was given a better role than...whatever the Hell Kim did on the bridge, then maybe. Why not make him Tuvok's assistant, or Security Liason to the Maquis, or something like that? At least with Data and Spock they were already interesting characters even without their Starfleet roles.

Maybe a recurring role as Paris' initial "Parole Officer" or something before moving him to a different post.

What's wrong with being the Operations Officer? Data was Ops Officer, and it didn't prevent HIM from being somewhat interesting.

There's nothing wrong with Garrett Wang's performance. He just didn't have any script material to work with. How can an actor show his chops when most of his lines consist of "Sensors indicate..." or "We're being hailed..." or such like?

 

[TheGodBen]

We can't judge Braga based on just one episode, otherwise we could judge him on Scorpion and declare a man a master of his trade. Braga had good episodes and he had bad episodes, but when people say things like "Braga sucks!" they're usually talking about his role as show-runner and not his role as writer. And in that regard, I agree with some of the criticisms made about him, it was when he took over in seasons 5 and 6 that continuity was really dropped, characters like Chakotay and Kim slid further into the background, and characters become more erratic. The same can be said of the first two seasons of Enterprise. I think that the B&B hatred goes overboard and too many people apply it to episodes or seasons where Braga wasn't even in charge (I've even seen it used as a criticism of DS9, bizarrely enough).

I never watched 24, so I don't know what Braga was like as a showrunner there, but on Trek I feel he was overshadowed by Piller, Behr and Coto, while perhaps being better than Taylor, Biller and Hurley. As a writer, he lacked consistency, he could write absolute rubbish like Sub Rosa, but also gems like Cause and Effect.

I agree. It needs a mascot. How about this.

Excellent idea. In accordance with my new policy of making crappy pictures in MS Paint to accompany amusingly off-topic threads, I submit this:

 

[zar]

Neither would I . B5 was a hack show written by a hack writer.

Factual basis for this?

B5 won multiple Hugo awards,

The reasons by which awards are chosen are no less subjective than number6's reasons for calling it a hack. Both of your opinions are equally valid because neither have factual basis.

 

[Anwar]

What's wrong with being the Operations Officer?

Nothing, as long as you're a worthwhile character even without your posting.

Data was Ops Officer, and it didn't prevent HIM from being somewhat interesting.

Because he was already a better character concept, and played by a better actor. Being OP Officer didn't mean anything since already had enough to work with.

There's nothing wrong with Garrett Wang's performance. He just didn't have any script material to work with. How can an actor show his chops when most of his lines consist of "Sensors indicate..." or "We're being hailed..." or such like?

If his character concept was better and more than "young ensign fresh from the academy" maybe. None of the other series (wisely) had a character like that. DS9's Bashir was "fresh" for a while before they realized that he was still boring and gave him the augment backstory, TNG had Wesley, nuff said.

 

[propita]

Posts here seem to indicate that many of the named people who supposedly caused Voyager's problems were not in charge, or not in charge throughout. I didn't understand this years ago. Rather, it appears that repeated demands by Paramount screwed things up from what might've been.

So my question remains ... who were the Paramount suits who "knew all about Star Trek" that they continually interfered? I'd like to know their names.

 

[Harvey]

I never watched 24, so I don't know what Braga was like as a showrunner there...

Braga wasn't showrunner on 24. That role belonged to Howard Gordon in season 7 & 8 (a role he had been serving since the fifth season, if memory serves).

 

[stj]

If his character concept was better and more than "young ensign fresh from the academy" maybe. None of the other series (wisely) had a character like that. DS9's Bashir was "fresh" for a while before they realized that he was still boring and gave him the augment backstory, TNG had Wesley, nuff said.

I'm pretty sure that you just said TNG had a "fresh" character in Wesley and DS9 in Bashir, even though you explicitly claim the other series were not so foolish. Personally I would add Kevin O'Reilly, then Chekhov, from Star Trek. It's Enterprise that had the standard issue female ingenue. Kim (and Wang) are the best of the male ingenue characters in Trek. I think the problem with the male ingenue characters isn't boredom but embarrassment.

As for Bashir being improved by the genetic engineering retcon, well obviously people feel differently. I just stopped taking the character seriously. Unfortunately you couldn't take him humorously either. My thought is that a secret about one's birth or nature that makes one special is a common fantasy. Fantasies can be quite beguiling. But I don't think they are especially interesting unless it's your fantasy, nor do I think they are sophisticated writing.

Voyager highlighted the syndrome in the Kim episode, Favorite Son. This is a good episode for spotting stupid reviewers. The grossly incompetent ones can't even review the episode!

Maybe I'm not any judge of acting talent, but I gather that Mr. Wang is more a Mall Rats/Clerks kind of guy, which means it takes talent to convincingly portray the dewy Mr. Kim. Plus, on the rare occasions (The Chute or Timeless come to mind,) his performance seemed quite strong to me.

Whereas McNiell and Beltran seem to my undiscerning eye to behave very much like their offscreen selves. (Bored offscreen self in Beltran's case.) Also, I think the inability to do the technical dialogue is not a sign of superior acting talent. I don't think acting Borgish stretches the talent that much. Also, given how much was written for the Paris character to so little avail, I strongly suspect weak acting is the cause. Still, I suppose my Plutonian perspective misleads.

I believe the Kim character was intended to be Paris' friend, period. They hired an Asian as a token but Paris' friend was never meant to be a main character, which is why Kim didn't even get an episode a year. I suspect that Wang thought he was supposed to be a main cast member, naive enough to take the titles seriously, and acted up when he found out different.

I've never been quite sure why people who hate Braga don't rant about Timeless. Obviously, a story about a screwup who redeems himself by self sacrifice is tailor made for....Paris. Why don't people criticize Braga for casting a codfish in what should have been Robert Duncan McNiell's finest hour?

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Neither would I . B5 was a hack show written by a hack writer.

Factual basis for this?

B5 won multiple Hugo awards,

The reasons by which awards are chosen are no less subjective than number6's reasons for calling it a hack. Both of your opinions are equally valid because neither have factual basis.

Uh, no...

You don't get a Hugo for being "hack", as I said. this is the science fiction community awarding works of exceptional artistic and creative merit. That is not "opinion", that is fact.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

What's wrong with being the Operations Officer?

Nothing, as long as you're a worthwhile character even without your posting.

Data was Ops Officer, and it didn't prevent HIM from being somewhat interesting.

Because he was already a better character concept, and played by a better actor. Being OP Officer didn't mean anything since already had enough to work with.

There's nothing wrong with Garrett Wang's performance. He just didn't have any script material to work with. How can an actor show his chops when most of his lines consist of "Sensors indicate..." or "We're being hailed..." or such like?

If his character concept was better and more than "young ensign fresh from the academy" maybe. None of the other series (wisely) had a character like that. DS9's Bashir was "fresh" for a while before they realized that he was still boring and gave him the augment backstory, TNG had Wesley, nuff said.

There is SOOO much more to Kim than just "young ensign fresh from the academy". That's a starting point, not a character arc.

Right in the pilot itself we see the seeds being planeted for Harry as "bridge" character between the two crew factions. Tom, despite himself, takes this fresh-faced newbie underwing and sets out to round him out in terms of life experience. In turn, Kim out to Tom in friendship, despite being warned by the Fleet crew to stay away from him. He also bonds with B'lanna over the course of their ordeal with the caretaker's infection.

B'lanna and Tom were almost being set up as "big brother" and "big sister" (a surrogate family, as it were) to Kim, which would have been fascinating to see develop over time if the front office hadn't straight jacketed the writer's room into doing TNG Mark II.

 

[zar]

this is the science fiction community awarding works of exceptional artistic and creative merit. That is not "opinion"...

Yes, that's exactly what it is -- an aggregation of subjective opinions used to choose whom to award, none more or less valid than number6's.

Data was Ops Officer, and it didn't prevent HIM from being somewhat interesting.

Because he was already a better character concept, and played by a better actor. Being OP Officer didn't mean anything since already had enough to work with.

You're saying this in retrospect after 7 years of both TNG and VOY. You know Kim turned out to be boring and Data didn't, but it could have easily gone the other way. Just because Kim never worked doesn't mean his concept was inherently flawed or that Wang was a bad actor. They just hardly ever gave him anything.

 

[number6]

Factual basis for this?

B5 won multiple Hugo awards,

The reasons by which awards are chosen are no less subjective than number6's reasons for calling it a hack. Both of your opinions are equally valid because neither have factual basis.

Uh, no...

You don't get a Hugo for being "hack", as I said. this is the science fiction community awarding works of exceptional artistic and creative merit. That is not "opinion", that is fact.

A Night In Sickbay got nominated for a Hugo. How does that happen? If you recall the Trek community had some issues with the credibilty of the Hugo then. It would seem a lot of those same people had no issue with B5 winning one. And A Night In Sickbay certainly sucked less.

JMS wrote every character like a cynical cop from Hill Street Blues. All his characters spoke with the same voice. Sure Woody Allen did the same with all of his films, too, except all his characters sounded like a neurotic middle aged Jew from Brooklyn, and at least his films were clever and often witty. B5 was neither. Their sets looked cheap. Their FX looked cheap, and while the aliens were awesome, not one of the other Humanoid characters could act to save their lives. Frankly I have seen better acting in a fan flick.
The overall story arc showed promise but the ending was more disappointing and groanworthy than BSG's ending and as original as the ending to Rescue From Gilligan's Island.
When they moved to the USA network, it got worse..almost to the point of insulting the intelligence of a piece of lint.

You're not going to convince me of the show's merits. Don't try. Outside of Keonig's occasional mustache twirling psychobabble and the G'Kar/Mollari dynamic, the show had no merit whatsoever.

It amazes me that people can complain about VOY when this stank up the airwaves worse than Glenn Beck's intestinal gases.

 

[Anwar]

There is SOOO much more to Kim than just "young ensign fresh from the academy". That's a starting point, not a character arc.

It's also a blatantly obvious character arc, which could have benefited from some extra plot to bulk him up, so to speak. Something more than that.

B'lanna and Tom were almost being set up as "big brother" and "big sister" (a surrogate family, as it were) to Kim, which would have been fascinating to see develop over time if the front office hadn't straight jacketed the writer's room into doing TNG Mark II.

The Maquis tension would've only lasted a season and a half at most if it was allowed to continue, Kim needed more to his character than "Nice kid who helps the tension wind down faster than it would have anyways". If that's all, then he should have been a recurring character and not a central.

 

[number6]

My biggest issue with the cast is their characters often came off as whiny and melodramatic.

I just couldn't feel any emotional connection.

The show often got a little too Oprah, touchy feely, estrogen at times and relied too heavily on technobabble.

 

[Admiral Shran]

Thompson (I'm assuming you mean Andrea [Talia Winters]) did a lot to bring warmth and empathy to a character who is all about control control control (like most Psi Corps members). Her story arc about bridging the gap with Susan over their differences about the Corps was well developed, which made what happened to Talia in the end all the more tragic.

I have nothing against the "story" of Talia Winters - in fact, it's highly enjoyable. It's just a shame that they didn't have a better actress in the role.

Never have understood the Boxlightner hate. Sherridan is a great character and a great Captain. He's Kirk without the overabundance of swagger and without the "fooling around" factor.

Again, Sherriden's story is excellent. But Boxlightner didn't act well in the role.

Same with Christian. Everybody wants to take "I am death..." and toss the entire character on the scrap heap because of it.

The "I am death" speech was just the final nail in the coffin for that character as far as I'm concerned. I felt nothing for her from the get-go.

There were other worthwhile characters like Delenn, Marcus, and Lennier.

Vir, Franklin, Lyta need to go on that list as well.

I did say that Patricia Tallman was pretty good. Furst and Biggs, not so much.

Voyager had three stand-out actors: Russ, PIcardo and Mulgrew. (My problems with the Doctor [later seasons] and Janeway are writing based, not acting based.)

Beltran and Biggs-Dawson were OK (though I never really bought B-D as a "genuine" Klingon...she's just too girly and soft).

The rest of the primary cast was mostly adequate, but no more than that.

Hardly a "balanced mix".

Voyager had four stand-out actors - Russ, Picardo, Mulgrew, and Ryan.

It had four decent actors - McNeill, Dawson, Phillips, and Lien.

It had two sub-standard (but not awful) actors - Beltran and Wang.

However, I'll take Beltran or Wang's acting abilities over most of B5's cast any day.

ONE bad speech does not a shitty character make. (see above)

I hated Ivanona the character and Christian the actor. That speech sums up why I hated both.

 

[Saquist]

VOY didn't much choice, seeing how they were in the Borg's backyard.

It still could have been done on a few engagements. Think about it.

The writers had Janeway take Voyager to the Heart of the Collective...the Unicomplex. They faced 15 cubes at a time... They went head to head against the Borg Queen.

(I hate the idea of a queen)

The Children Borg story was the same as TNG: I borg.
The Borg Cooperative was like Descent
The episode One was rather original but still individual in level.
But Scorpion and Unimatrix Zero were over top and made Voyager look very very strong and the Borg weak. I'm just saying if they had avoided those two episodes this wouldn't look nearly as excessive as First Contact made the Borg look.

It wouldn't have made any sense for them to just run into one ship at a time anyways. If they didn't want to run into the Borg, then they should've just said that the Borg weren't from our galaxy at all or something.

What do you mean? The Borg have never traveled in Fleets or pairs. If it didn't make sense for Voyager then it didn't make sense for Q-who or I Borg, or Best of Both Worlds or Descent. How are you going to hold Voyager to a standard that no other episode of Trek supports?

If the Borg were as weak as they were in Voyager retro to TNG then Best of Both Worlds would have failed to capture it's audience. DS9 managed to capture the Borg properly. My opinion. It's everyone elses fault not living up to that level.

 

[Saquist]

My biggest issue with the cast is their characters often came off as whiny and melodramatic.

I just couldn't feel any emotional connection.

The show often got a little too Oprah, touchy feely, estrogen at times and relied too heavily on technobabble.

I loved the techno-babble. I don't mind that it goes over other peoples head. That's sci fi. You want Star Wars nega-explanations watch star wars...but the great part of Trek is that it attempts to get the science right. It's trying to EDUCATE us. Otherwise there is no difference from watching the crap Geoge Lucas put on the screen and some of the Great Writing that people like Jan and Garfield-Reeves Steeven have put out for Trek.

I'm not an emotion person but I get what Voyager and DS9 were doing. They were adding feeling where TNG lacked it in large amounts by not flowing from episode to episode. The Janeway and Seven thing was great. REBELLION and AUTHORITY. People go through that kind of thing.

GUILT for making the right decision for the greater good.
That happens.

Depression because all your friends are DEAD...
Yes that's real.

They didn't do the best job with every aspect like over doing the Doctor stories and holograms. I'd even say the women of Voyager had too many problems and men were more stable and yet the show emasculated the men for the sake of Janeway...that kind a ruined certain moments that could have been powerful.

 

[Guy Gardener]

there was a line from Dark Frontier where Janeway was saying that she was sick of playing a defensive game, running or hiding every time they so much as sniffed the hint of Borg...

THOSE are the episodes I wanted to see.

"Shit it's the Borg! Lets run!"

Or

"Shit it's the Borg, they're assimilating a planet! Billions of People are being enslaved and murdered! What do we do?!"

"Run away and hide."

Or...

"Attack that cube!"

"No effect."

":Are they retaliating?"

"No? Why would they? We are not a threat and they have already sampled our biological and technological distinctiveness. Acknowledging us is a waste of their resources."

Or

"Harry, the Borg Queen wants to know if you want to do dinner and a movie on Friday? She's really into you, there's no way you won't make it to second base on the first date."

 

[Anwar]

The writers had Janeway take Voyager to the Heart of the Collective...the Unicomplex. They faced 15 cubes at a time... They went head to head against the Borg Queen.

They went up to the Unicomplex (or rather, they followed a Borg ship there instead of finding it), broke in and ran like Hell. It's not like they did any real damage.

They didn't fight 15 Cubes, they just sat and watched while the 8472 destroyed 15 Cubes.

They went against the Queen, but it was revealed in the end that the Queen let them get away every time and could have destroyed them if she wanted.

(I hate the idea of a queen)

You can't make the Borg a recurring villain who interacts with the crew (the way every other Trek villain does) with just a big ominous voice.

But Scorpion and Unimatrix Zero were over top and made Voyager look very very strong and the Borg weak. I'm just saying if they had avoided those two episodes this wouldn't look nearly as excessive as First Contact made the Borg look.

Well, thank you for showing that yes, some folks didn't like Scorpion and found it to be damaging to the Borg, and Unimatrix Zero was...well I don't remember that episode well anyways.

The problem was that the audience couldn't handle the idea of one ship having such an impact on the Galaxy (nevermind that Farscape did it and no one cared) or the Borg. Maybe if VOY had joined up with the some Anti-Borg Resistance force and did "Unimatrix Zero" with their help it would have mitigated the effect since the audience would be "Oh well they teamed up with a bunch of folks who had been researched ways of killing Borg for years...".

But that would have cost too much money, so I see why they didn't.

What do you mean? The Borg have never traveled in Fleets or pairs. If it didn't make sense for Voyager then it didn't make sense for Q-who or I Borg, or Best of Both Worlds or Descent.

In those episodes the Borg sent one ship to the other side of the Galaxy, basically a scouting/probe mission. It made sense it wasn't some huge force. VOY took place in the Borg's own territory where logically they'd have a larger force traveling around all the time since it was their actual home.

If the Borg were as weak as they were in Voyager retro to TNG then Best of Both Worlds would have failed to capture it's audience. DS9 managed to capture the Borg properly. My opinion. It's everyone elses fault not living up to that level.

The Borg were only strong when there wasn't much known about them, after BOBW the Feds knew more, developed weapons that could destroy them without some plot contrivance, and VOY had access to tons more information about the Borg than anyone before them.

It wasn't that the Borg got weaker, it was that the Feds got stronger while the Borg stayed at the same level as before. That DS9 example? Used when the Feds were still weak against the Borg.

As for what Guy is saying, the reason they told us they'd run from the Borg but never showed us was because they didn't want to make the crew be cowards.

After all, the TOS and TNG crews never ran from anything, they always found some way of stopping whatever Doomsday Machine, or Super-Probe or whatever destructive force that threatened them.