Have any of the novels ever just made you mad? (

[Therin of Andor]

nor does it excuse him doing nothing but pitying himself in 'Destiny'.

Ah yes, so no one is ever allowed to pity himself, not even when he has been mentally scarred beyond what even he thought had been done. Starfleet training should allow him to overcome anything?

Remind yourself of that next time you're feeling a little depressed.

If the Starfleet guys must always surmount any odds, which do we keep reading ST fiction? Give the guy a break. The Borg is Pcard's Archilles' Heel. He has a unique empathy for the Borg's assimilated drones. He's already permitted the killing of thousands in "The Best of Both Worlds" and tried to make a moral decision in "I, Borg" (and "Descent"), and tried to fix the situation in "First Contact".

Maybe Picard should have sought retirement due to trauma long before this, but then he's hardly a worthy "star" of such an epic story, and it took "Destiny" for anyone to realise the true depths of Picard's injuries. "Destiny" is what it is. You didn't like it, fine. You'll never change your mind, or David Mack's, or the sales figures. But you'll never change our minds. Stalemate. Move on.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

nor does it excuse him doing nothing but pitying himself in 'Destiny'.

Ah yes, so no one is ever allowed to pity himself, not even when he has been mentally scarred beyond what even he thought had been done. Starfleet training should allow him to overcome anything?

Yes, Therin, when BILLIONS of lives are at stake and it's your duty to protect them you do not have the luxury to pity yourself.
If you can't do the job, you step down and make room for someone who can.

Remind yourself of that next time you're feeling a little depressed.

If BILLIONS of lives would depend on my NOT being depressed and if it is my sworn duty to protect them, then - guess what - I do NOT have the RIGHT to be depressed.

If the Starfleet guys must always surmount any odds, which do we keep reading ST fiction?

I already said it several times - it's not so much the fact that Picard/starfleet failed to stop the borg as the fact that Picard/most of starfleet failed to even TRY to stop the borg, that they've given up, that the borg broke their spirit.

Going through the motions, without even bothering to come with something new that could actually work does not count as trying to stop the borg; only as trying to have a dignified death.

Give the guy a break. The Borg is Pcard's Archilles' Heel. He has a unique empathy for the Borg's assimilated drones. He's already permitted the killing of thousands in "The Best of Both Worlds" and tried to make a moral decision in "I, Borg" (and "Descent"), and tried to fix the situation in "First Contact".

Yes - he participated in the killing of thousands in BOBW and he topped this by a few BILLIONS (TRILLIONS?) in 'I, Borg', when he allowed the borg to continue killing and assimilating entire species.

This is NOT an improvement. And anyone responsible - even indirectly - for such an unimanigable orgy of death and suffering does not deserve a 'break'.

In 'Destiny' it is from the start established that the federation will pay in blood for Picard's decision in 'I, Borg' (meaning, his decision in 'I, Borg' is confirmed as atrocious); but Picard had a chance to redeem himself by substantially contributing to the borg's defeat - which did not happen.

To put it shortly, 'Destiny' did substantial - and lasting - damage to the character of Picard.

Maybe Picard should have sought retirement due to trauma long before this, but then he's hardly a worthy "star" of such an epic story, and it took "Destiny" for anyone to realise the true depths of Picard's injuries. "Destiny" is what it is. You didn't like it, fine. You'll never change your mind, or David Mack's, or the sales figures. But you'll never change our minds. Stalemate. Move on.

"Stalemate. Move on." - Therin, we are on a lit forum and I find this discussion enjoyable enough. Which is why I don't see a reasson to end it.

 

[Rush Limborg]

I think it should be rather obvious.

The rest of us find the constant repetition of the same points over and over increasingly dull and irritating.

Neither of you will convince the other. As we have seen both sides, we therefore get tired of it.

Stalemate. Move on...and kindly agree to disagree.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I will add this to the whole "using thalaron weaponry at the Azure nebula, when the Borg fleet showed up" thing.

From Nemesis we know thalaron weapons take a while to charge up to fire on a ship desgned to fire them, so ships that have to make modes might actually take longer. In other words they only work if the target stays in the kill zone till it charges and fires. The Borg fleet didn't do that they just ran over the fleet so it wouldn't have worked.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The rest of us find the constant repetition of the same points over and over increasingly dull and irritating.

Neither of you will convince the other. As we have seen both sides, we therefore get tired of it.

At least 60-70% of the discussions on this forum were already had in the past, all sides heard, repeated, etc.

Rush Limborg, you (or 'us', if you prefer) must find a large part of this forum 'dull and irritating'. Which is interesting, considering the fact that you often participate in such repeated/evergreen discussions.

I will add this to the whole "using thalaron weaponry at the Azure nebula, when the Borg fleet showed up" thing.

From Nemesis we know thalaron weapons take a while to charge up to fire on a ship desgned to fire them, so ships that have to make modes might actually take longer. In other words they only work if the target stays in the kill zone till it charges and fires. The Borg fleet didn't do that they just ran over the fleet so it wouldn't have worked.

The thalaron weapon takes a few minutes (2-3) to charge, not hours. The borg armada would still be in the area proximate to the subspace tunnel after a few minutes.
This means the charging time presents no significant drawback.

 

[Sci]

I will add this to the whole "using thalaron weaponry at the Azure nebula, when the Borg fleet showed up" thing.

From Nemesis we know thalaron weapons take a while to charge up to fire on a ship desgned to fire them, so ships that have to make modes might actually take longer. In other words they only work if the target stays in the kill zone till it charges and fires. The Borg fleet didn't do that they just ran over the fleet so it wouldn't have worked.

The thalaron weapon takes a few minutes (2-3) to charge, not hours. The borg armada would still be in the area proximate to the subspace tunnel after a few minutes.
This means the charging time presents no significant drawback.

You mean, other than the fact that the Borg will destroy your ship in those two to three minutes before it can charge?

 

[BillJ]

I will add this to the whole "using thalaron weaponry at the Azure nebula, when the Borg fleet showed up" thing.

From Nemesis we know thalaron weapons take a while to charge up to fire on a ship desgned to fire them, so ships that have to make modes might actually take longer. In other words they only work if the target stays in the kill zone till it charges and fires. The Borg fleet didn't do that they just ran over the fleet so it wouldn't have worked.

The thalaron weapon takes a few minutes (2-3) to charge, not hours. The borg armada would still be in the area proximate to the subspace tunnel after a few minutes.
This means the charging time presents no significant drawback.

You mean, other than the fact that the Borg will destroy your ship in those two to three minutes before it can charge?

The only thing we know for sure is that with the technology the Romulans were using it took several minutes to charge. A Federation version may have taken longer to charge or they may have found shortcuts in the process.

All technology is not equal.

 

[Rush Limborg]

The rest of us find the constant repetition of the same points over and over increasingly dull and irritating.

Neither of you will convince the other. As we have seen both sides, we therefore get tired of it.

At least 60-70% of the discussions on this forum were already had in the past, all sides heard, repeated, etc.

Rush Limborg, you (or 'us', if you prefer) must find a large part of this forum 'dull and irritating'. Which is interesting, considering the fact that you often participate in such repeated/evergreen discussions.

And you will note how, whenever the debate repeats itself, I try (and usually fail) to make it cease. Of course, it is inevitably followed by taunts to the effect that I "know" I can't win, or something like that....

 

[BillJ]

The rest of us find the constant repetition of the same points over and over increasingly dull and irritating.

Neither of you will convince the other. As we have seen both sides, we therefore get tired of it.

At least 60-70% of the discussions on this forum were already had in the past, all sides heard, repeated, etc.

Rush Limborg, you (or 'us', if you prefer) must find a large part of this forum 'dull and irritating'. Which is interesting, considering the fact that you often participate in such repeated/evergreen discussions.

And you will note how, whenever the debate repeats itself, I try (and usually fail) to make it cease. Of course, it is inevitably followed by taunts to the effect that I "know" I can't win, or something like that....

If people are enjoying the debate (like me), why try to get them to cease? Once you've reached your fill nothing forces you to constantly come back.

 

[Christopher]

There's no point quibbling over the technicalities of whether a thalaron weapon would've worked. If the trilogy had just ended with a few thousand cubes getting thalaronned and things going back to status quo for a while until the next time the Borg invaded a few years later, that would've been a lousy ending, dramatically speaking. It wouldn't have been the definitive resolution to the Borg saga, let alone a decent payoff to the threads that the trilogy set in motion. So there's no point in arguing that it could've worked or should've been tried, because the story wasn't supposed to end that way. This isn't real history, it's fiction, and it follows the rules of drama. A weapon only works if the story calls for it to work.

 

[BillJ]

There's no point quibbling over the technicalities of whether a thalaron weapon would've worked. If the trilogy had just ended with a few thousand cubes getting thalaronned and things going back to status quo for a while until the next time the Borg invaded a few years later, that would've been a lousy ending, dramatically speaking. It wouldn't have been the definitive resolution to the Borg saga, let alone a decent payoff to the threads that the trilogy set in motion. So there's no point in arguing that it could've worked or should've been tried, because the story wasn't supposed to end that way. This isn't real history, it's fiction, and it follows the rules of drama. A weapon only works if the story calls for it to work.

The very last sentence of you post I agree with. In fact, I've already said as much earlier in the thread...

1) I'll never understand this opposition to using the Thalaron weapon. If the story needed it not to work, then it wouldn't work (same thing drives me crazy about I, Borg)... it's that simple. But for our heroes to not even make an attempt to save their civilization is weak.

And I would've been perfectly happy had our heroes tried and failed in their attempt. The fact that they gave up is what soured me on Destiny. Nothing more... nothing less.

 

[starri]

And I would've been perfectly happy had our heroes tried and failed in their attempt. The fact that they gave up is what soured me on Destiny. Nothing more... nothing less.

But they did make an attempt, just not the one with the thalaron weapon.

Not to ape the title of any soon-to-be-published novels, but the situation wasn't a zero sum game. If they'd tried the weapon, and it worked, that would have saved the day. If they'd tried it and it didn't work, they wouldn't have been any less dead than if Hernandez's plan hadn't worked. And if it hadn't worked and the Borg had managed to assimilate it, they'd have loosed an even-stronger Collective on the universe.

I just think if they'd resorted to a superweapon, it wouldn't have felt as fundamentally Trek-ish. YMMV.

 

[Rush Limborg]

At least 60-70% of the discussions on this forum were already had in the past, all sides heard, repeated, etc.

Rush Limborg, you (or 'us', if you prefer) must find a large part of this forum 'dull and irritating'. Which is interesting, considering the fact that you often participate in such repeated/evergreen discussions.

And you will note how, whenever the debate repeats itself, I try (and usually fail) to make it cease. Of course, it is inevitably followed by taunts to the effect that I "know" I can't win, or something like that....

If people are enjoying the debate (like me), why try to get them to cease? Once you've reached your fill nothing forces you to constantly come back.

Excellent point. To be honest...I am becoming increasingly convinced that I am prone to chronic masochism.

 

[BillJ]

And if it hadn't worked and the Borg had managed to assimilate it, they'd have loosed an even-stronger Collective on the universe.

I just think if they'd resorted to a superweapon, it wouldn't have felt as fundamentally Trek-ish. YMMV.

The second part of the above quote is an opinion. And one that I respect even if I don't agree with it.

I addressed the first point above in another post.

But you run that risk anyway. If the Borg would have won they'd be coming back around and see what they could salvage in way of information and technology (it's only logical).

So Thalaron radiation, tri-lithium warheads, the Genesis Device, Transphasic torpedoes, Exo III android technology and so much more all would've had a chance of falling into Borg hands and being used against the Borgs next victims.

 

[Christopher]

And I would've been perfectly happy had our heroes tried and failed in their attempt. The fact that they gave up is what soured me on Destiny. Nothing more... nothing less.

They didn't "give up" at all. I don't understand this persistent attachment to the completely false notion that the thalaron weapon was their only option. See page 349 of Lost Souls. When Picard conceived the idea of using the thalaron weapon, it was as a backup plan in case Hernandez was unable to convince the Caeliar to help. They already had a strategy in place -- one that, I must again stress, DID ACTUALLY WORK. Picard simply lacked confidence in that strategy because, as it clearly states on p. 349, he was unable to believe that anything could truly stop the Borg. So he came up with the thalaron idea as Plan B in case the Caeliar failed, or in case the Borg managed to assimilate Caeliar technology. But guess what -- Picard was dead wrong. Plan A did work. It worked vastly better, in the long run, than the thalaron fallback plan could ever have worked, because it ended the Borg threat permanently instead of just wiping out a fraction of their total strength and making the rest of them even madder and more dangerous than they already were.

If anything, you've got it backward -- Picard was the one who "gave up" by proposing the thalaron idea in the first place. He gave up hope. He gave up optimism. He couldn't allow himself to believe that anything could ever truly overcome the Borg, so all he had left was an act of violence that he knew would accomplish little in the long run. I mean, come on, it's right there. He didn't believe anything could stop the Borg -- which means he didn't believe the thalaron weapon could either. "The biogenic weapon might prove futile" -- it's right there in Picard's own thoughts. Even he knew it was a hollow gesture, yet he sank to it because he felt desperate and afraid. If that's not giving up, I don't know what is. What Geordi did was to convince him not to give up, not to abandon the principles he'd always lived by, and to trust in Plan A, the plan that actually worked.

 

[BillJ]

And I would've been perfectly happy had our heroes tried and failed in their attempt. The fact that they gave up is what soured me on Destiny. Nothing more... nothing less.

They didn't "give up" at all. I don't understand this persistent attachment to the completely false notion that the thalaron weapon was their only option. See page 349 of Lost Souls. When Picard conceived the idea of using the thalaron weapon, it was as a backup plan in case Hernandez was unable to convince the Caeliar to help. They already had a strategy in place -- one that, I must again stress, DID ACTUALLY WORK. Picard simply lacked confidence in that strategy because, as it clearly states on p. 349, he was unable to believe that anything could truly stop the Borg. So he came up with the thalaron idea as Plan B in case the Caeliar failed, or in case the Borg managed to assimilate Caeliar technology. But guess what -- Picard was dead wrong. Plan A did work. It worked vastly better, in the long run, than the thalaron fallback plan could ever have worked, because it ended the Borg threat permanently instead of just wiping out a fraction of their total strength and making the rest of them even madder and more dangerous than they already were.

If anything, you've got it backward -- Picard was the one who "gave up" by proposing the thalaron idea in the first place. He gave up hope. He gave up optimism. He couldn't allow himself to believe that anything could ever truly overcome the Borg, so all he had left was an act of violence that he knew would accomplish little in the long run. I mean, come on, it's right there. He didn't believe anything could stop the Borg -- which means he didn't believe the thalaron weapon could either. "The biogenic weapon might prove futile" -- it's right there in Picard's own thoughts. Even he knew it was a hollow gesture, yet he sank to it because he felt desperate and afraid. If that's not giving up, I don't know what is. What Geordi did was to convince him not to give up, not to abandon the principles he'd always lived by, and to trust in Plan A, the plan that actually worked.

But see the problem is Plan A was nothing more than a prayer. Like someone who has money issues hoping they hit the lottery as the solution to their problem.

At the end of the day, the entertainment value of the Destiny trilogy is in the eye of the beholder. You thought it worked... I didn't.

 

[Sci]

And I would've been perfectly happy had our heroes tried and failed in their attempt. The fact that they gave up is what soured me on Destiny. Nothing more... nothing less.

They didn't "give up" at all. I don't understand this persistent attachment to the completely false notion that the thalaron weapon was their only option. See page 349 of Lost Souls. When Picard conceived the idea of using the thalaron weapon, it was as a backup plan in case Hernandez was unable to convince the Caeliar to help. They already had a strategy in place -- one that, I must again stress, DID ACTUALLY WORK. Picard simply lacked confidence in that strategy because, as it clearly states on p. 349, he was unable to believe that anything could truly stop the Borg. So he came up with the thalaron idea as Plan B in case the Caeliar failed, or in case the Borg managed to assimilate Caeliar technology. But guess what -- Picard was dead wrong. Plan A did work. It worked vastly better, in the long run, than the thalaron fallback plan could ever have worked, because it ended the Borg threat permanently instead of just wiping out a fraction of their total strength and making the rest of them even madder and more dangerous than they already were.

If anything, you've got it backward -- Picard was the one who "gave up" by proposing the thalaron idea in the first place. He gave up hope. He gave up optimism. He couldn't allow himself to believe that anything could ever truly overcome the Borg, so all he had left was an act of violence that he knew would accomplish little in the long run. I mean, come on, it's right there. He didn't believe anything could stop the Borg -- which means he didn't believe the thalaron weapon could either. "The biogenic weapon might prove futile" -- it's right there in Picard's own thoughts. Even he knew it was a hollow gesture, yet he sank to it because he felt desperate and afraid. If that's not giving up, I don't know what is. What Geordi did was to convince him not to give up, not to abandon the principles he'd always lived by, and to trust in Plan A, the plan that actually worked.

But see the problem is Plan A was nothing more than a prayer. Like someone who has money issues hoping they hit the lottery as the solution to their problem.

... no, appealing to the altruism and empathy of a species that has already demonstrated that it has altruism and empathy (millions of Caeliar sacrificing themselves to protect Human prisoners in Book I), albeit in radically different manifestations than we'd tend to prefer, for help when facing genocide, is not the same thing as the astronomical improbability of winning the lottery.

 

[BillJ]

the astronomical improbability

The whole story depends on 'astronomical improbability' to work in the first place.

 

[Christopher]

^Again I want to point out: Plan A worked. So it's kind of silly to insist it was nothing more than a deluded prayer. Where's the logic in arguing with a proven success?

 

[Sci]

the astronomical improbability

The whole story depends on 'astronomical improbability' to work in the first place.

No, not really. The story depends on the Caeliar being too bullheaded to pull their heads out of the sand and take responsibility for their rogue citizen until the same time that Hernandez admits that she's become a part of their culture and cannot return to Earth and still be whole. It's about the intersection of two self-epiphanies -- the Caeliar epiphany that they cannot hide from their own evolution anymore, and Hernandez's epiphany that she can't hide from her own evolution anymore, either.