Watched it a 3rd time -- it's great!!

[kkozoriz1]

Okay, I'll bite again

I think the clues regarding the general intent of the writers, plus the very different depiction of Delta Vega in the movie, point to the writer's making a figurative statement that reads literally when taken out of the greater context (as I tried to explain ad-nauseam, and you casually dismiss without invoking common sense).

First, lets address the core: writers intent.

Can we agree on the following:

- The Writers created the Alternate Reality scenario as a way to link the old continuity to the new.
- The Writers, at great length, entered into several interviews to clarify that the Alternate Reality was created by Nero's arrival and subsequent actions in 2233.04.

Since these are well established, we then go to on-screen evidence:

- Delta Vega in the new movie looks very different in both climate and appearance in orbit.
- The requisite Starfleet Outposts in both Delta Vega depictions are very different (small listening-like post vs. large, automated industrial complex)

If we can agree on these two things, then we have to ask:

- Would the writers mean "moving" as in changing the location, or changing the name?
- Would they have literally changed the location of the Delta Vega, if they were aiming to keep true to established Canon?

If you'll allow me to quote from another property with Star in the title, many of the great truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

To my reading of all this, it really doesn't matter what they said in a literal sense, since ALL of it was from a storytellers perspective rather than an in-universe perspective.

You are assuming that they wanted to do a retcon, when really they were simply after name recognition, a nod to fans. It is not that this is literally the same planet, but the same planet in spirit (the first alien world we see Kirk visit), by using the same name.

I submit that you cannot see the wood for the trees here.

Delta Vega has the most elongated orbit in the known galaxy. In 2258 one end of the orbit was in the Vulcan system. By 2265, the other end of the orbit was near the edge of the galaxy.

And by making that statement, you obviously failed to read what you quoted. Unless of course you're just making a joke, but I have a feeling you weren't.

Then, you would be incorrect.

 

[Dukhat]

Delta Vega has the most elongated orbit in the known galaxy. In 2258 one end of the orbit was in the Vulcan system. By 2265, the other end of the orbit was near the edge of the galaxy.

And by making that statement, you obviously failed to read what you quoted. Unless of course you're just making a joke, but I have a feeling you weren't.

Then, you would be incorrect.

Incorrect about you not reading the quote, or incorrect about you making a joke?

 

[OneBuckFilms]

Fine. But my mind won't be changed. And I assume, neither will yours.

Okay, I'll bite again

I think the clues regarding the general intent of the writers, plus the very different depiction of Delta Vega in the movie, point to the writer's making a figurative statement that reads literally when taken out of the greater context (as I tried to explain ad-nauseam, and you casually dismiss without invoking common sense).

First, lets address the core: writers intent.

Can we agree on the following:

- The Writers created the Alternate Reality scenario as a way to link the old continuity to the new.
- The Writers, at great length, entered into several interviews to clarify that the Alternate Reality was created by Nero's arrival and subsequent actions in 2233.04.

Since these are well established, we then go to on-screen evidence:

- Delta Vega in the new movie looks very different in both climate and appearance in orbit.
- The requisite Starfleet Outposts in both Delta Vega depictions are very different (small listening-like post vs. large, automated industrial complex)

If we can agree on these two things, then we have to ask:

- Would the writers mean "moving" as in changing the location, or changing the name?
- Would they have literally changed the location of the Delta Vega, if they were aiming to keep true to established Canon?

If you'll allow me to quote from another property with Star in the title, many of the great truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

To my reading of all this, it really doesn't matter what they said in a literal sense, since ALL of it was from a storytellers perspective rather than an in-universe perspective.

You are assuming that they wanted to do a retcon, when really they were simply after name recognition, a nod to fans. It is not that this is literally the same planet, but the same planet in spirit (the first alien world we see Kirk visit), by using the same name.

I submit that you cannot see the wood for the trees here.

Delta Vega has the most elongated orbit in the known galaxy. In 2258 one end of the orbit was in the Vulcan system. By 2265, the other end of the orbit was near the edge of the galaxy.

Ah, so you are taking a figurative statement literally, and completely ignoring on-screen evidence, context and common sense.

Tell me what on-screen evidence and additional statements and context you have to differentiate the writer's statements as being literal in nature.

 

[kkozoriz1]

It was a joke.

joke   [johk] Show IPA noun, verb, joked, jok·ing.
–noun
1.
something said or done to provoke laughter or cause amusement, as a witticism, a short and amusing anecdote, or a prankish act:

 

[Dukhat]

Thank you professor, I'm well aware of the definition of a joke.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Just making sure.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

It is a difficult concept.

 

[M'Sharak]

Well, I thought it was pretty funny.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

So, basically, what seems to be the consensus here (except for me, of course) is that we can't take anything the writers say "literally". Even though when asked specifically if they fudged canon by moving the planet, Orci specifically replied "True. Yeah we did", we can't take that literally. Because that's not what he meant. And when he said "We moved the planet to suit our purposes", we can't take that as an actual answer to the question he was asked, because that's not what he really meant. I really wish the writers would say what they really mean instead of giving these seemingly cryptic responses that have to be interpreted by fans. It would make things a whole lot simpler. Or...we could just take what he said as what he actually meant. Yeah. That would make sense. It would be logical. But if the writers don't even know what they mean and the fans have to interpret everything for them, then we can pretty much explain this new universe and its inconsistencies any way we choose, regardless of what the writers may have said, considering they don't know what they are talking about anyway.

 

[Dukhat]

So, basically, what seems to be the consensus here (except for me, of course) is that we can't take anything the writers say "literally". Even though when asked specifically if they fudged canon by moving the planet, Orci specifically replied "True. Yeah we did", we can't take that literally. Because that's not what he meant. And when he said "We moved the planet to suit our purposes", we can't take that as an actual answer to the question he was asked, because that's not what he really meant. I really wish the writers would say what they really mean instead of giving these seemingly cryptic responses that have to be interpreted by fans. It would make things a whole lot simpler. Or...we could just take what he said as what he actually meant. Yeah. That would make sense. It would be logical. But if the writers don't even know what they mean and the fans have to interpret everything for them, then we can pretty much explain this new universe and its inconsistencies any way we choose, regardless of what the writers may have said, considering they don't know what they are talking about anyway.

Yeah. Sure. Whatever you say. Quite frankly, I'm tired of looking at your paragraphs and paragraphs of drivel in an effort to keep alive an argument that nobody really cares about, yourself included I suspect. So take the hints from M'Sharak and OneBuckFilms and just drop it. If that's not enough for you, then let's all just say you're absolutely correct in whatever you're talking about so you can shut up about it and we can move on to something that really matters, like speculation about what the next movie is going to be about.

P.S. Do I really think that, short of a thread lock, that my above quote is really going to stop you from your continued silly ranting? Not at all. That would be the job of the mods. But I think I speak for most people here.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Okay. To keep the proponents happy, and so I don't have to listen to the whining because they can't prove me wrong, I'll drop it. I know I'm absolutely correct in what I'm talking about. I may not be right all the time, but on this subject, I know without a doubt that I am. If you can't see it, that's on you. Now let's get on to bigger and better things. At least until I can find something else to rant about.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

Okay. To keep the proponents happy, and so I don't have to listen to the whining because they can't prove me wrong, I'll drop it. I know I'm absolutely correct in what I'm talking about. I may not be right all the time, but on this subject, I know without a doubt that I am. If you can't see it, that's on you. Now let's get on to bigger and better things. At least until I can find something else to rant about.

Zim, I provided a good explanation of my thinking, and you turn it into a joke.

You never actually answered my request for evidence beyond the literal statement to support your position, when I provided plenty of evidence that placed the writer's statements in a figurative/creative context.

Is it any wonder you are being mocked on this issue?

 

[number6]

He still has yet to come up with a quote or a link that proves his assertion that Abrams hates Star Trek. Nor has he been able to prove that I ever resorted to name calling, although we can sift through this very thread where he has done so.

He is right about the writers saying they moved the planet to suit the purpose of the plot, something Star Trek writers have done since 1966, but still hasn't answered repeated questions from mods and posters alike as to why this such a big deal.

His behaviour every time someone starts a thread praising this film speaks for itself.

 

[Dukhat]

Okay. To keep the proponents happy, and so I don't have to listen to the whining because they can't prove me wrong, I'll drop it.

Fine. You're right, and everyone else is wrong. You win pointless, stupid argument. Zim=1, everyone else=0. Happy? Now let's just drop it, everybody. All you're doing is fueling the fire for his silly rants.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

Zim, if you would like, I (or you) could create a separate thread.

 

[Dukhat]

Zim, if you would like, I (or you) could create a separate thread.

What would be the point of that? The argument is done and over with.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

Zim, if you would like, I (or you) could create a separate thread.

What would be the point of that? The argument is done and over with.

Then we don't.

I was leaving it up to him if he wanted to pursue this further, in the interests of breaking the deadlock, without interfering with this thread.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Fine. But my mind won't be changed. And I assume, neither will yours.

This pretty much sums up how debates over the film will always end.

 

[Gojira]

I can't believe I just read this entire thread! I must have seen this new movie about 17-20 times on DVD. I personally love it! It is my favorite Trek movie and I have been a fan since the early 70s.

No movie is perfect and I am a very forgiving viewer.

Although it can be fun to dissect a movie there comes a point when that endeavor ends up taking all the fun and joy out of the movie.

 

[Set Harth]

I found the correlation between those who complain the supposed "flash" but then have to be corrected on nearly every single point they got wrong about the film.

This.

Stupid may be to harsh a word.