End of DS9 on to Voyager

[shauncroucher]

It's a very sad day... I have finally finished watching the whole of DS9 for the first time. It just got better and better from series 5 onwards.

I've watched the whole of TNG 3-4 times over, and I will no doubt be watching DS9 a number of times as well, but there is nothing quite like not knowing what the outcome of each episode with be.

Next is Voyager, and I've seen probably 10-20% of the episodes in the past, but I can't remember much from them.

As DS9 has such a great storyline, great characters and had stars from TNG such as Colm Meaney and Michael Dorn, I'm hoping that Voyager will catch my imagination as much as DS9 and TNG have.

What can I expect from Voyager, any avid fans who rate Voyager as highly as DS9?

Shaun

 

[Navaros]

What can I expect from Voyager, any avid fans who rate Voyager as highly as DS9?

Voyager is unlike DS9 in pretty much every way. Voyager regresses back into TNG's no conflict, no story development, no character development, tons of holo-deck filler instead of SciFi stories etc. etc., formulas.

Also, Voyager brings back the technobabble in spades.

Personally, I think TNG and Voyager are both very bad shows for those and other reasons. However, most fans seems to love TNG yet think Voyager is a lot worse, despite them both having the exact same grievous flaws.

 

[TheGodBen]

Howdy. It's always great to have another DS9 fan on the board, you never know when those Babylon 5 fans will make a sneak attack.

Voyager is a very different show to DS9. Voyager was the flagship show for the UPN network, which meant that it was the victim of a lot more executive interference than DS9, and in many people's opinion (including my own) this prevented the show from achieving its potential. You see, TNG was a big success in terms of ratings while DS9 continually lost viewers each year, so UPN wanted Voyager to be more like TNG and less like DS9. So while DS9 went down a darker and more serialised route, Voyager was forced into being lighter and more standalone.

There are very few story arcs in Voyager. There's an arc about the Kazon in the second season, and there's a small amount of continuity in the later seasons when it comes to Borg stories, but the show never embraced serialised storytelling like DS9 did.

The extended cast on Voyager is small compared to DS9. In the early seasons they developed many recurring characters, but they all either died or disappeared around season 3. In the later seasons some of the main cast almost drop off the radar and the show focuses mainly on Janeway, Seven and The Doctor. Characters like Chakotay and Kim may as well not even be on the show.

Continuity is loose. In one episode the ship will be going through an energy crisis, in the next episode they're messing about on the holodeck. (And in The Cloud they're messing about on a the holodeck while actually being in the middle of an energy crisis. ) In one episode the Doctor loses his memory, but in the next episode he's back to normal. This sort of thing is common on Voyager, although DS9 could have this problem as well (the lack of follow up to Hard Time, for example).

That's not to say that Voyager is bad! Many people on this board love the show, and many people here love both DS9 and Voyager. While I'm not a big fan of Voyager myself I definitely think that you should give it a shot. Even the most ardent Voyager haters will admit that the show had many classic Trek episodes, such as Scorpion and Living Witness.

 

[RandyS]

What can I expect from Voyager, any avid fans who rate Voyager as highly as DS9?

Shaun

Not me. That's not to say that Voyager is bad, it did have many excellent episodes, but of the two, I personally prefer DS9.

 

[Kai Winn]

It's a very sad day... I have finally finished watching the whole of DS9 for the first time. It just got better and better from series 5 onwards.
Shaun

you won't have to wait that long watching voyager, season 1 is good, 2 and 3 not so much but with some outstanding episodes here and there, from season 4 onwards it beats anything of the other shows. regard tng and ds9 as a warm up, the real adventure is about to begin.

 

[shauncroucher]

Thanks for the replies,

I must admit, the storylines in DS9 are really great, and really add value, and I felt DS9 did what TNG had the opportunity for but never quite managed. By far the character building and relationships in DS9 far outweigh TNG in my opinion.

It will be interesting to see how I get on with Voyager. One aspect of TNG which I thought was stronger than DS9 was the 'adventure' aspect, and the 'strange anomolies and situations' such as the crew becoming prehistoric beings, data taking control of the ship, being caught in a time loop, and the Q episodes.

I guess I can expect Voyager to be more like the TNG series in a few aspects, as you say TheGodBen....

 

[Kathryn-janeway]

See iv just recently discovered DS9, And i think its brilliant. The episodes are all followed on from each other and make perfect sense. This might be me, but what i have gathered is that DS9 is about starfleet protecting the bajrons on the station. Were as voyager is about getting lost in space and basically shows that its not the journey what matters but the people who are on voyager. The characters ant as developed as DS9. But You should enjoy it i still do and Voyager will always be my first love. I'm sorry if i haven't explianed my self very well

 

[indolover]

Voyager was little like TNG. TNG had balanced character development, more iconic story lines (Scorpion was Voyager's best episode by a country mile, but is it as iconic as The Best of Both Worlds?), etc.

Whilst DS9 had better character development than TNG did, it is TNG's story telling that IMO makes it a classic among Trek fans.

 

[shauncroucher]

I think there is something about the series that you first get into. For me it was TNG and that will probably always be the one I consider my most favorite, but I must admit, DS9 was surprisingly good, and is way up there in terms of pure excellence.

Shaun

 

[indolover]

DS9 was an excellent series, and did have some plus points over TNG. However, I think TNG had some plus points over DS9. In TNG, there was no Bajoran politics (or the politics of any one planet) involved. I always thought this was a weakness, since Bajor is far away from the Federation core, and the Federation only really gave a crap about it when the wormhole was discovered.

Another thing is the Ferengi. OK, TNG introduced them, but it was DS9 that developed them. All the Ferengi episodes just portrayed them as one-dimensional, and only caring about profit.

Regarding enemies, well the TNG Borg were good, as were the Dominion in DS9.

IMO though, both DS9 and TNG are the best Trek series by a country mile.

 

[TheGodBen]

Thanks for the replies,

I must admit, the storylines in DS9 are really great, and really add value, and I felt DS9 did what TNG had the opportunity for but never quite managed. By far the character building and relationships in DS9 far outweigh TNG in my opinion.

It will be interesting to see how I get on with Voyager. One aspect of TNG which I thought was stronger than DS9 was the 'adventure' aspect, and the 'strange anomolies and situations' such as the crew becoming prehistoric beings, data taking control of the ship, being caught in a time loop, and the Q episodes.

I guess I can expect Voyager to be more like the TNG series in a few aspects, as you say TheGodBen....

What you'll find with Voyager is that it has the adventure aspect of TNG, but it has less of the character and political stuff.

TNG was a great mix of character, politics and high-concept sci-fi. When it ended the writers had two choices: go to DS9 which was about to enter its third season, or wait around for 6 months and write for Voyager.

Ron Moore and Rene Echevarria tended to write the more character-centric episodes, as well as episodes with political aspects, such as Redemption, I Borg, Tapestry, and so on. When TNG ended they were convinced to join the writing staff on DS9 and they helped to make that show what it was. At the same time, Brannon Braga and Joe Menosky tended to write the more science fiction-y episodes of TNG like Cause and Effect, Darmok and Parallels. They were convinced to write for Voyager (although Joe Menosky didn't really join Voyager until season 3).

All Good Things is a perfect encapsulation of TNG: It was written by Ron Moore and Brannon Braga, and it was a great balance between a character story and an interesting sci-fi concept. That's what TNG was.

When the staffs split it could be argued that both DS9 and Voyager lost TNG's balance; DS9 went the character/political route while Voyager went the sci-fi/action-adventure route. Whereas TNG had something for everyone, DS9 and Voyager catered for different aspects of the franchise, and as a result both shows lost a lot of viewers over time.

Personally, I prefer DS9 with TNG in second place, but that's because I prefer serialised storytelling over standalone plots.

 

[shauncroucher]

@TheGodBen - You certainly do have a lot of knowledge regarding the storywriting behind the show, I thought I was a manic fan, but there is such an avid fanbase on here, it's incredible.

Is there any character / relationship development in Voyager? Like you, I appreciate the growth of the characters and the storyline.... but having said that, I quite like the variety of 'one-stop' shows.

Where would Enterprise fit in here, I've only watched one or two, but that will be next after Voyager... does that follow more after DS9 as character based, story arcs etc or more scifi adventure and action based?

Shaun

 

[Too Much Fun]

I think I would plunge into a deep depression if I started watching "Voyager" after DS9...what a massive drop in quality that would be. It's like going from dinner in a fancy restaurant to spam-in-a-can. But then, I'm a "Voyager" hater, so I'm biased. I've started watching "Battlestar Galactica" since the last time I finished watching DS9. It's not Star Trek, but it makes a nice follow-up to DS9 with the serialized storytelling and the Ronald D. Moore connection and it's of a similar quality (although I think it rarely ever hits the heights of DS9 in its prime seasons).

 

[Photon]

There are a few good Voyager eps, but overall its forgettable.

 

[shauncroucher]

It does seem to be the general consensus here that is you are a fan of DS9 for all things that are great about it such as the storytelling and character development... don't expect that to shine in Voyager.

Voyager was pretty popular in its time, I can remember there being quite a big following, although I can remember trying to get into it about 10 years ago after TNG and I did struggle a little, I guess I'll have to wait and see how I get on, will sit down and watch the first couple of episodes tonight... missing DS9!

Shaun

 

[Temis the Vorta]

VOY is so inferior to DS9 that watching it will be a depressing experience. Maybe check out something better - Farscape or the new BSG.

 

[TheGodBen]

@TheGodBen - You certainly do have a lot of knowledge regarding the storywriting behind the show, I thought I was a manic fan, but there is such an avid fanbase on here, it's incredible.

That's a kind way of saying that I'm a huge nerd.

The story of what happened in the background of Trek is almost as interesting as the shows themselves. There were lies, deceit, clashing egos, melodramatic rants, nepotism, sexual harassment, brain tumours, cocaine addiction and fire-breathing rockmen. The next Star Trek show should be set in the writing room of a fictional Star Trek show, it would be a hit!

Is there any character / relationship development in Voyager? Like you, I appreciate the growth of the characters and the storyline.... but having said that, I quite like the variety of 'one-stop' shows.

There's some great character development on Voyager for a few of the characters, The Doctor in particular; The Doctor you see in Caretaker is nothing like The Doctor in Endgame. Seven also gets a decent amount of development once she is introduced in season 4.

Then you have characters like Chakotay. He's a good character for the first two seasons and he has a fairly decent arc in season 2, but once Jeri Taylor took over as head writer in season 3 she dropped his whole story and she effectively castrated him in order to make Janeway seem stronger. After that Chakotay never recovers as a character. Kim never developed as a character, he's the same naive idiot at the end of the show as he was at the start. Neelix went from being horrendously annoying character to just an annoying one. Tuvok, Torres and Paris did a little better in terms of screen time, but they still weren't that well developed.

Where would Enterprise fit in here, I've only watched one or two, but that will be next after Voyager... does that follow more after DS9 as character based, story arcs etc or more scifi adventure and action based?

Enterprise is unusual in that there was three stages to it. The first two seasons followed in Voyager's footsteps for the most part, mostly standalone stories, but there's some political stuff. That went really badly so in season three they completely changed the show and it became a season-long arc about finding a weapon that is being built to destroy Earth. It was a bit contrived, but they did some interesting things with the story and characters and I felt it paid off. In season 4 the show became focused on story arcs in the lead-up to the Earth-Romulan war, and they reintroduced Section 31 to the plot, so superficially that was similar to DS9. It had a chance of growing into a great show, but it was cancelled before its time.

 

[RyuRoots]

@Shaun: It's a decent show...but I do mean "decent". Most episodes from the first few seasons are completely forgettable; and I don't mean 'bad' even. Because if they were bad, at least they'd be memorable for their badness. But the first few seasons have a ton of 5/10 episodes that were either just completely bland all throughout or the good and bad perfectly cancel out, in my opinion. After that, the good ones tend to be really good and the bad ones tend to be godawful.

It's not a terrible show at the end of the day, but it's not nearly as good as TNG or DS9.

As far as ENT, I'd say avoid it like the plague. And not for any stupid reason like "canon violation", but I thought none of the characters were even remotely likable aside from Travis, who gets shafted in terms of screentime. And even when the show improves, it's still not very interesting. That is, the Xindi arc eps are definitely better than the slop I saw from S1, but they didn't grab me. But eh, there are some people who really love ENT, so I dunno. Best to test the waters and see what you think firsthand.

 

[kathrynJaneway2]

for me voyager was great. it starts of quite dull but gets much better after each season. DS9 was ok for me but for me it has to be voyager all the way.
I HOPE U ENJOY VOYAGER AS MUCH AS I DO

 

[flemm]

I love TNG and DS9, but Voyager bores me to tears. DS9 is something of a different animal, but why do I enjoy TNG so much more than Voyager? It's a legit question. Some aspects of TNG really haven't aged well at all, and are actually quite obnoxious: the assumption of superiority, blind adherence to doctrine, lack of any meaningful conflict or even disagreement among the main characters.

In some ways, when I go back to watch TNG episodes, I marvel that this show was ever popular at all. It's not sexy, not hip, not funny for the most part, at least not intentionally, the characters are pretty dull, everybody's too perfect, it's too hung up on its own mythology, it's very self-reverential. Meh. It shouldn't work, but it does. Even now, the meat of TNG, say seasons 3-6, is really, really entertaining.

I'd like to be able to better define what made that show work. Ratings differences between TNG and DS9/Voyager are of course partly a product of changes in programming across the board, more sci-fi shows, better quality tv drama overall, the rise of cable, but whatever: TNG did really well for itself.

A lot of it is Patrick Stewart, I think. He sells the whole thing. Beyond that, the crew is much greater than the sum of its individual parts. Taken individually, Picard, Data and maybe Worf are the only characters that really stand out, but when they come together to solve the weekly challenge, they are fun to watch. I never got that feeling with the Voyager crew. I just never found them fun. The weekly puzzle was sometimes interesting, but I never enjoyed watching them solve it.

With DS9, there is no mystery, the show has a lot more depth of characterization, complex story arcs, a better and more numerous supporting cast, along with some solid sci-fi action-adventure. The show is uneven and never found its audience on the scale that TNG did, but it is much more of a creative crucible than the other Trek shows of that era. At its best it's really great, and it has aged much, much better than TNG.

Anyway, good luck with Voyager