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Things like starving people on Bajor don't make much sense

Non-Beard Riker

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Red Shirt
With all the technology available in the 24th century it's just not believable. These things don't make sense from a in-universe view. The same with slavery. At a certain technological level is just not efficient anymore.

Do you agree with me and that we have to accept these things to enjoy the fiction?
 
Yes, they have means, but the necessary technology requires massive amounts of energy. If the fuel isn't avaliable or allocated, those things might just happen under certain regimes.
 
I can see the point of your claim. But the thing of it is, the world (real or imaginary) doesn't always make sense.

Many of the same things can be said for the 20th and 21st centuries.
A lot of people starved in the middle ages. But by the 20th century, surely there would be no more hunger, there would be enough to feed everyone.
Well, yeah there is. But not everyone gets the food they need to survive, even though there is enough to go around. Doesn't make sense, either.

And we went from "Can a man even get into space?" to landing on the Moon in a decade. Surely, 50 years later, we would have moved on past the Moon.
No, we lost the Moon and now have no way to get there now or even in decades to come. It may well be a hundred years from getting to the Moon, to finding a way BACK to the Moon. Doesn't make sense, either.

So I can buy starvation and slavery amongst the Bajorans in the 24th century.
Not much stranger than our own kind of strange today.
 
With all the technology available in the 24th century it's just not believable.
I want a helicopter. We know how to build helicopters and we have the means to power them. By your logic I should be commuting to college every morning in my personal helicopter, but over a century after the first helicopters were tested I'm stuck driving a ten year old Toyota Corolla.

Do you understand how the world works?
 
I disagree, we never really know the level of technology the pre-occupation the Bajora had.

Near the end of the occupation their refugee space ships seem to lack even warp drive.

The Federation will not out right give advanced technology to lesser races(especially non-member worlds), the Bajorans would have to trade something of value to gain access to things like replicators or advanced energy sources. Since their world was utterly despoiled what do they have to offer in trade?

Also I submit that Bajor was far worse shape than Earth after WWIII. There were no formal technological or science institutions to support the advanced infrastructure necessary for post scarcity economics.
 
^ Indeed. Post-occupation Bajor was left in such shambles that it had no technologies like replicators or even warp drive. If it ever had those things in the first place, the Cardassians did not let them keep them; and the Federation was forbidden, under the terms of the Prime Directive, from *giving* it to them.
 
With all the technology available in the 24th century it's just not believable. These things don't make sense from a in-universe view. The same with slavery. At a certain technological level is just not efficient anymore.

Do you agree with me and that we have to accept these things to enjoy the fiction?

I disagree strongly. We have the technology and resources to feed the entire world right now, yet millions starve while others live in opulence. As the GodBen pointed out, that is just not how the world works.
 
It's easy to say things like "we have the resources to feed the world right now", but there's really no proof that we can really do this. Do we have enough money to pay for all this? Do we have the ability to distribute this food amongst every human being on Earth? How would we ensure it gets there? Do we have that kind of infrastructure to make sure everyone gets their share? Do we *really* have enough food to go around? There's no answer to any of these questions.
 
With all the technology available in the 24th century it's just not believable. These things don't make sense from a in-universe view. The same with slavery. At a certain technological level is just not efficient anymore.

Do you agree with me and that we have to accept these things to enjoy the fiction?
I agree with the notion that there's no reason for the Cardassians to enslave a bunch of primitive Bajorans. Even when the Breen were doing it, it only made marginal sense, and only there because they appeared to be some random Breen guys, without the capital resources of an interstellar government behind them.

As for starvation, that's much more likely; the Cardassians didn't care much about the Bajoran population, and if a resource area happened to also be the most arable land around, tough noogies for the Bajorans.

Even afterward, ending malnutrition and such through replicators and the like requires an infrastucture. It's not like someone can hand you a replicator and you've suddenly got an endless buffet.
 
As for slavery, you're right, it doesn't make much sense economically. However, if an oppressor actually enjoys enslaving someone, then it can and will happen. Many Cardassians were shown to enjoy enslaving the Bajorans because they viewed them as inferior beings, not worthy of respect.

As for starvation, as has been said, Bajor was shown to be in complete shambles after the occupation. Basic necessities were lacking. It would take years for even a highly organized and benevolent government like the Federation to resurrect Bajor to what it was before the Occupation. And the ability to feed a population, in the 21st century or the 24th century requires an infrastructure to oversee it. You can't simply give a billion replicators to people. How are those replicators powered? Who maintains them?
 
Near the end of the occupation their refugee space ships seem to lack even warp drive.

But everybody at the time thought these ships did have warp drive. Otherwise, the Cardassians couldn't have constructed their nefarious "Ensign Ro" plot so that it required said ships to have warp drive!

No, Orta's particular ship must have been warp-capable - the drive just happened to be broken, which the Cardassians didn't anticipate.

At the end of the Occupation, Bajor is immediately shown operating all sorts of warpships, including the specific ship type we saw in "Ensign Ro". We don't know how old that technology is, or where it originates, but we have every reason to think that Bajor during the occupation was perfectly warp-capable. We just don't know how long before the occupation this capability was attained.

Also I submit that Bajor was far worse shape than Earth after WWIII. There were no formal technological or science institutions to support the advanced infrastructure necessary for post scarcity economics.

Why wouldn't there be? Cardassians were never said to have slaughtered the intellectual classes, or anything like that. The institutions that may or may not have been suppressed during the occupation could have sprung back to operation essentially overnight. Better, certainly, than the corresponding institutions on Earth after the devastation of WWIII. Cardassians weren't said to have devastated anything, either, after all.

As for slavery, you're right, it doesn't make much sense economically. However, if an oppressor actually enjoys enslaving someone, then it can and will happen.

On that vein, I'd argue that the Cardassians were never using slave labor as such. Instead, they had prison camps where the inmates were used for forced labor - but the purpose of the camps was not to produce stuff, it was to keep the inmates occupied, oppressed and possibly obliterated (although the only party suggesting that the camps were for genocide was a Cardassian liar!).

Bajorans working on actual productive endeavors were not indicated to be slaves. The industrial workers on DS9 may or may not have been paid - this was never commented on. But there was no comment on them being slaves, either. The only people on DS9 actually labeled as slaves were the comfort women, and we don't exactly know whether that Bajoran label was accurate.

Bajor was shown to be in complete shambles after the occupation. Basic necessities were lacking.

Umm... The only necessity we saw lacking was a steady supply of power - Quark suffered from a brownout during his surface visit in one of the early episodes. The mentions of food shortages and whatever were in relation to the actual duration of the occupation - and even there, they seemed to only affect specific people, those in Cardassian disfavor.

Cardassians didn't have time to devastate much when they received their orders to withdraw. They thrashed DS9, and didn't do a very good job at it. They salted some fields, the issue in "Shakaar". But they didn't blow up the city halls or power stations, or anything like that - not to our best knowledge.

What damage the actual occupation process did is not specified. Bajor was stripmined, that much we know - but that need not have distressed the world much.

Really, "starving people on Bajor"? Where? When? Who? We never actually saw a hungry Bajoran person after the end of the occupation.

Timo Saloniemi
 
It's easy to say things like "we have the resources to feed the world right now", but there's really no proof that we can really do this. Do we have enough money to pay for all this? Do we have the ability to distribute this food amongst every human being on Earth? How would we ensure it gets there? Do we have that kind of infrastructure to make sure everyone gets their share? Do we *really* have enough food to go around? There's no answer to any of these questions.
there is. the world produces more than 650 million tons of each rice, corn, wheat, and potatoes per year, that translates to roughly 100 kg of each crop per year for every human alive. not counted the 1,000s other eadible things, there should be no hunger.
 
there is. the world produces more than 650 million tons of each rice, corn, wheat, and potatoes per year, that translates to roughly 100 kg of each crop per year for every human alive. not counted the 1,000s other eadible things, there should be no hunger.

And now... in the Star Trek universe we have warpships, transporters and replicators. The federation could've feed those feed people without any afford. Any reasons like "prime directive" don't work here. It's just drama that doesn't come out of the story's logic.
 
You guys can keep your rice I won't eat that everyday!

Seriously though I'm sure no matter advanced a species becomes it can be hard feeding a planet without anything in place. You have to setup supply lines and areas to dispense the food. They would have to inform the populace that food is available at these specific areas and there will always be people that don't know.

One other point or issue is being a vast country or even space empire you're bound to have problematic areas not just one either. You can either put many resources into this much closer humanitarian effort near your supply lines and get it taken care of in three years or send it further down the line and it will still take a decade or more regardless. Which would we choose?

What if the people we're helping aren't part of our country or empire? Would we deny our citizens help they need over an outsider? We already know that helping other governments and nations is altruistic but people are greedy or ignorant of how to get the job done properly. Look at Africa or other third world nations. It seems to be a harder egg to crack in space than on a single planet imo.

It's a spreadsheet game I wager where we put in a certain amount of effort or help and that is entirely determined by what we get out of it. Look at all the aid that was given to Israel even today it outstrips whatever we've done with others in Africa or South America. We get something out of Israel that makes it more of a priority even though it has little land and is smaller than Chicago population wise.
 
And now... in the Star Trek universe we have warpships, transporters and replicators. The federation could've feed those feed people without any afford.
The problem isn't the technology, the problem is the amount of energy it would require. Creating matter from energy is no small feat, it requires huge amounts of energy, and that's only possible in the Star Trek universe because of the existence of magical dilithium crystals and the abundance of antimatter. Bajor clearly did not have the energy infrastructure to power these machines in the months after the occupation, and the Federation couldn't just fly in a few power plants and create a planet-wide distribution network overnight, that sort of thing takes years of work.

And that's supposing the Federation had the political will to undertake such a massive project. Bajor was just one world, and it wasn't even a Federation world, I'm sure there are dozens of other worlds at that time that had food shortages and required assistance. Bajor is lucky that they had a stable wormhole in their space in order to keep the Federation interested in them.
 
Yes, they have means, but the necessary technology requires massive amounts of energy. If the fuel isn't avaliable or allocated, those things might just happen under certain regimes.

I just can't believe that replicators work by energy-matter conversion (e = mc²) It would requiere a an (literally) astronomical quantity of energy just to make a glass of water.

beside, you would have to "burn" one kg of antimatter to make one kg of food, so what's the point? it would not reduce the mass of stuff you have to load on your ship.

i rather believe that relicators just disassemble the molecules of some raw material (waste generally) and reassemble them as food.

could still requiere much energy.

It has been mentionned numerous times that there is still agriculture, even in the federation. So obviously replacators don't feed everyone.
 
I disagree, we never really know the level of technology the pre-occupation the Bajora had.


It was mentionned that a ship carrying a kai disappeared in the denarios (spelling?) belt in the 22nd century, and that people from various systems visited bajor (it was a place of art blabla).

so obviously they were part of the interstellar community.
 
Yes, they have means, but the necessary technology requires massive amounts of energy. If the fuel isn't avaliable or allocated, those things might just happen under certain regimes.

I just can't believe that replicators work by energy-matter conversion (e = mc²) It would requiere a an (literally) astronomical quantity of energy just to make a glass of water.

beside, you would have to "burn" one kg of antimatter to make one kg of food, so what's the point? it would not reduce the mass of stuff you have to load on your ship.

i rather believe that relicators just disassemble the molecules of some raw material (waste generally) and reassemble them as food.

could still requiere much energy.

It has been mentionned numerous times that there is still agriculture, even in the federation. So obviously replacators don't feed everyone.
THAT is the same thing.... and you sound like you have thought about this a bit too much.
 
I disagree, we never really know the level of technology the pre-occupation the Bajora had.


It was mentionned that a ship carrying a kai disappeared in the denarios (spelling?) belt in the 22nd century, and that people from various systems visited bajor (it was a place of art blabla).

so obviously they were part of the interstellar community.

So was that race looking for a cure in Enterprise, in their immediate neighborhood but they weren't warp capable.
 
Show me one matte painting of a large Bajoran metropolitan area. Show me one friend of Kira who is not a farmer or priest.

The agriculture to non-agricultural ratio is still to high. Would one undertake replicator and fusion maintence apprenticeship at the village level?

We have seen some Bajorans with advanced skills like Dr. Mora, but who is to say he was not trained by Cardassians.
 
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