So wait, how did Ben survive to the present day in the alt-timeline? Wasn't he on the Island when the nuke went off? Did he somehow manage to get off before it went boom? I mean, if I'm remembering correctly, at the time the nuke went off, he was with the Others, not with Dharma, right? So he couldn't have gotten off via the Dharma sub, right?
Lost 6x04: "The Substitute"
- Thread starter Agent Richard07
- Start date
A compass is also a symbol in the show for Locke.
It was one of the "artifacts" Richard brought young Locke to test him to see if he owned it or not. The same compass with given to Locke in the future by Richard to give back to him in the past as a symbol of recognition.
Anywhoo..
From what I'm gathering Jacob & Smokey are doing is what was said in "Constintine", where God & Satan are fighting over Earth but due to rules they can't directly harm each other, so they use us people as their pawns.
However, the question is: Why is Smokey afraid of real Locke?
Locke has faced it down a few times and it won't harm him, Real Locke isn't even afraid of it.
....but if you go back over certain parts of the show, Smokey has been manipulating ways to get Locke off the island.
Does Widmore know what Smokey is?
Someone had to give Dharma good instructions for them to build that sonic fence to keep it out.
Which means, they had to know what it is and what it does.
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that same question would apply to Ethan too, just gonna have to take it for what it is. what other character for Locke to have that kind of interaction with in another universe, than the man who strangled him in the alpha universe.
I'm guessing a bomb of that magnitude not only sunk the island but knocked that time wheel in it off kilter again, possably throwing them out of time.
Huh, I guess I am seriously in the minority here. I was practically bored to tears with this one.
Above Average, almost an Excellent!
Extremely enjoyable! I really liked seeing Locke's life sans Island. Not too bad so far! Likewise with Hurley. So, removing the island's/Jacob's influence is not all bad.
So, was everyone who was on 815 listed in the cave? Or, just the regulars. Does the number indicate the year in which Jacob first touched them? I didn't study them in depth but I noticed that Sawyer was contacted when he was young and he had a low number (4).
Interesting that the main characters keep bumping into each other in the alternate timeline. I don't this is for television convenience. I'm starting to develop a theory on this but it's pretty rough. However, I would not be surprised to see the same character developments that occured on the island start to occur in the alternate timeline via different means. Like, Locke will walk but it'll be due to Jack. Rose's cancer will spontaneously go into remission, but not due to the island.
Speaking of Rose, where are she and the other 815 people on island time line? I'm confused about that. Are they roaming the island?
Using Sawyer's astute, con man developed insight into human nature, to detect that Locke was not Locke was great writing and very true to the character. However Locke turns the table on the con man and uses Sawyer's state of mind about loss to his/its advantage. It's hilarious how unLocke tells Sawyer that if you follow me you'll get the answers. Not really. What he gets is a cave with their names on it, an ubstantiated story about Jacob, and proposal that they leave the island together. In the end, unLocke just convinces Sawyer to help him get off the island.
I'm sure there is a lot more, I'm still processing it.
Mr Awe
Extremely enjoyable! I really liked seeing Locke's life sans Island. Not too bad so far! Likewise with Hurley. So, removing the island's/Jacob's influence is not all bad.
So, was everyone who was on 815 listed in the cave? Or, just the regulars. Does the number indicate the year in which Jacob first touched them? I didn't study them in depth but I noticed that Sawyer was contacted when he was young and he had a low number (4).
Interesting that the main characters keep bumping into each other in the alternate timeline. I don't this is for television convenience. I'm starting to develop a theory on this but it's pretty rough. However, I would not be surprised to see the same character developments that occured on the island start to occur in the alternate timeline via different means. Like, Locke will walk but it'll be due to Jack. Rose's cancer will spontaneously go into remission, but not due to the island.
Speaking of Rose, where are she and the other 815 people on island time line? I'm confused about that. Are they roaming the island?
Using Sawyer's astute, con man developed insight into human nature, to detect that Locke was not Locke was great writing and very true to the character. However Locke turns the table on the con man and uses Sawyer's state of mind about loss to his/its advantage. It's hilarious how unLocke tells Sawyer that if you follow me you'll get the answers. Not really. What he gets is a cave with their names on it, an ubstantiated story about Jacob, and proposal that they leave the island together. In the end, unLocke just convinces Sawyer to help him get off the island.
I'm sure there is a lot more, I'm still processing it.
Mr Awe
BTW, I looked up the name "Dogon" and this is what I got:
http://www.unmuseum.org/siriusb.htm
Mr Awe, Rose, Bernard & Walt's dog all settled dowm and built a cabin.
They want no more part of whatever Jack, Sawyer & the everyone else is doing.
They just want to be left alone.
According to Rose, the other survivors are dead.
Most of who was left was killed off by the flaming arrows on the beach during the time shifting.
http://www.unmuseum.org/siriusb.htm
Mr Awe, Rose, Bernard & Walt's dog all settled dowm and built a cabin.
They want no more part of whatever Jack, Sawyer & the everyone else is doing.
They just want to be left alone.
According to Rose, the other survivors are dead.
Most of who was left was killed off by the flaming arrows on the beach during the time shifting.
There were originally 48 surviviors, right?
those that didn't become "Others" are supposed to be dead.
So was the kid smokey chased Aaron? I realize the timeline is off, but Walt showed rapid aging as well. 
Excellent episode. I was surprised to get so many answers from NotLocke! PS- we need this guy's name already.
Some stuff I guessed: Jacob is the island's caretaker, and was seeking a new caretaker for the island.
Some stuff I wouldn't have guessed: NotLocke was once a man (assuming this is true). I seriously thought the only explanation was that he was either a creature and/or diety from ancient Egypt. I'm still clinging to the Egypt theory but I guess he's not necessarily a god now.
Excellent episode. I was surprised to get so many answers from NotLocke! PS- we need this guy's name already.
Some stuff I guessed: Jacob is the island's caretaker, and was seeking a new caretaker for the island.
Some stuff I wouldn't have guessed: NotLocke was once a man (assuming this is true). I seriously thought the only explanation was that he was either a creature and/or diety from ancient Egypt. I'm still clinging to the Egypt theory but I guess he's not necessarily a god now.
Wow, Locke actually did become a substitute teacher.
That was a good solid hour. Above Average.
- I didn't believe we'd actually get too many answers despite what unLocke said. Are we still calling him unLocke? The play on words is getting a bit stale.
- Looks like this change to the timeline goes back further than the flight. Locke is with Helen.
- I liked that Ben had a few words to say at Locke's burial. Then there was Frank... "Weirdest damn funeral I've ever seen." I burst out laughing at that.Gotta love Frank the way he just rolls with it all.
- Sawyer's not the candidate.
Thanks Agent Richard07 for the explanation on your choice of pics. Very cool and appropriate.
Re - the timeline. Either this is a complete alternate universe (the flash-sideways) or it was a result of The Incident receiving the Faraday Fix. If the latter, I would think that the alternate timeline would date back to 1977. Things diverged from 1977 onwards. That would be plenty of reason why things are slightly different.
One other thought that I got is that the flash-sideways may be a season-long epilogue that we are seeing. After the Losties (SmokeyLocke, TempleOthers in whatever time they are in - They seem to be in the 2007 timeline since the Ajira survivors didn't see a "lens flare" that we know of. But the producers can always throw us) have the climactic Smokey vs JacobCandidateSubstitute battle, things might get reset.
And then the flash-sideways might be how things play out after the reset. In that sense, the flash-sideways in a twist will become flash-forwards based on the events that will happen at the end of the season. And this way, we (the viewers) will already know how things will play out with our Losties after The Final Battle Between Good and Evil.
Reason why I think that is because there is a decent chance that in the flash-sideways things will turn out ok for everybody. Hurley is way cool in the flash-sideways future. Also there's a good chance that Ben and Locke might become best tea-drinking buddies (which would be funny since in the Lost-Island timeline, one killed the other). Maybe Jack will "cure" Locke. Locke still seems to have Katey Segal to look forward to. And Kate might actually find some romantic attachments and also be involved in raising up Aaron.
I too thought that the kid that we are seeing is Aaron. I found it interesting that when we first see him he is all bloodied up (or at least that's what I thought I saw) and then the second time we don't see any blood on him. I think that means something... Also Richard Alpert couldn't see the kid but Sawyer could. That also means something... Sawyer is a candidate. They have been "touched" by Jacob) and that is the reason why they can see or hear him. (Like Locke could hear Jacob in the shack but not Ben). And that is also why Hurley can see Jacob. And Miles won't be able to.
Also - I thought that it is possible that Aaron and Jacob are the same. Do we know Aaron's middle name? I can't really say why. But the vaguely christian (but thru a blurry filter) shadings to the storyline seems to suggest it. That is also why it was very important that Aaron be baptized or something. And that is also why Aaron must be raised by Claire. Also it might explain why Jacob thinks of them as candidates. It might be because they are all connected to his birth/existence. Jack's his uncle, Kate his godmother, Claire his mother. Locke will eventually be the vehicle thru which he will "face" the "adversary". Not sure how Sawyer and Hurley play in tho'. Also it could possibly explain why the kid in this episode is shown all bloody at first and then unhurt. The adversary (SmokeyLocke) has tried to kill Jacob via an intermediary (trying to bend the rules) but that too is not allowed. So Jacob is "re-forming" somehow. That's why he's a boy. And that's why the second time SmokeyLocke sees him, he doesn't have any wounds. Those wounds are healing up. And that's why Locke is a little panicky. He needs to do whatever he wants Sawyer for, quickly cos Jacob is coming into existence soon. (And since the "adversary" struck him down, Jacob will become even more powerful!
)Which brings me to another question. Why am I calling him the "Adversary"? I seem to remember that last season's finale was called the Adversary but it's not. Where am I picking up this "adversary" stuff from? Was it referenced in Lost or am I suffering from sleep-deprivation hallucinations?
Oh - the above is just a theory... Sometimes I go with two aliens who landed on the island and are struggling with each other theory too.
I guess next week we return to the Temple Others.
And we did learn that once Smokey has taken Locke's form, he can't change back. Which brings me to the question of why he was able to "change" into Alex (Rousseau's daughter) seemingly at will. Is that only because you can do that when he's in the temple? Or is it because it can do that whenever it's doing the "judging" ceremony.
Lots of things to think about in this ep.
Which is how I likes it...
Did you check out my post about the name "Dogon"?So was the kid smokey chased Aaron? I realize the timeline is off, but Walt showed rapid aging as well.
Excellent episode. I was surprised to get so many answers from NotLocke! PS- we need this guy's name already.
Some stuff I guessed: Jacob is the island's caretaker, and was seeking a new caretaker for the island.
Some stuff I wouldn't have guessed: NotLocke was once a man (assuming this is true). I seriously thought the only explanation was that he was either a creature and/or diety from ancient Egypt. I'm still clinging to the Egypt theory but I guess he's not necessarily a god now.
The little kid looked like young Jacob.
^I thought it may be Aaron but isn't Aaron still off-island? (Plus him still being a baby).
I thought it was a good episode, although when UnLocke told Sawyer that Jacob had got him when he was vulnerable and miserable and 'pushed' him I hope Sawyer realises that's exactly what UnLocke is doing now.
I thought it was a good episode, although when UnLocke told Sawyer that Jacob had got him when he was vulnerable and miserable and 'pushed' him I hope Sawyer realises that's exactly what UnLocke is doing now.
I voted excellent. It is the episode that explains my Ben love. Bizarro Ben is a European History teacher. Kudos to the artist formerly known as Henry Gale.
Excellent
I absolutely loved this episode.
I'm not even going to bother theorizing because you'd have to assume that everything NotLocke said is true, when he could be lying completely. And having watched this show since the beginning, that could very well be the case.
I absolutely loved this episode.
I'm not even going to bother theorizing because you'd have to assume that everything NotLocke said is true, when he could be lying completely. And having watched this show since the beginning, that could very well be the case.
S
Stone_Cold_Sisko
Guest
My theory here is that the only way Smokey can go "home" (wherever that is) is by killing all the candidates. He thought he had ALL of them when he took over Locke... since Jack, Hugo, Sayid, Sawyer were all gone, and he had taken over Locke.
That's why he got pissed when Jacob told him "they're coming" in "The Incident". He thought he'd "won" by 'eliminating' all the candidates. Then, aww crap, here's 4 more.
So now, he's one by one picking off all the candidates. He's claimed Sayid. He's brought Sawyer to his side (probably to kill him off later after the others are gone). Jack and Hugo better watch their backs.
That's why he got pissed when Jacob told him "they're coming" in "The Incident". He thought he'd "won" by 'eliminating' all the candidates. Then, aww crap, here's 4 more.
So now, he's one by one picking off all the candidates. He's claimed Sayid. He's brought Sawyer to his side (probably to kill him off later after the others are gone). Jack and Hugo better watch their backs.
Above average, nearly excellent. I am loving the flash-sideways - and I never would have suspected that they would bother doing the stories of what would have happened if they didn't crash, or that I would give a flip if they did.
Smokey's conversation with drunken Sawyer was wonderfully written. Even blitzed, Sawyer is sharp enough to zero right in on the difference been Locke and Smokey. It's a real treat seeing scenes like that, written by great writers and performed by great actors. It'll suck when this show is over because there's nothing on network TV certainly that can touch it.
And speaking of Smokey, I never would have guessed that critter would emerge as a character at all, much less a fascinating one. So is the secret of the island that it's a prison for some malevolent force of nature that used to be human in the dim, distant past? Was the island chosen not because anyone was directly interested in its wacky properties, but because those properties made it useful as a prison? Did Jacob perhaps create those properties in order to turn the island into a prison and shield humanity from this malevolent force??? WOW! And that would explain why not pushing the buttons endangers the world - it lowered the security fence!
Locke and Ben being teachers in the same school is both horrifying and inevitable.
The numbers = Losties thing is something I've never considered and throws it all into a new, eerie light. I think Sun is the "Kwon" who is Candidate 42. The six Losties mapped to numbers are also the Losties who have shown some leadership potential. I remember thinking early on that Jack, Sayid and Sun should form a leadership council - between the three of them, they could bring different strengths to the council and form a solid team.
I'm going with the theory that the blond boy is Jacob; killing him just resets him to a younger self and he bounces right back.
On second thought, maybe this deserved an Excellent. Lost skews so high that it's hard to figure out the proper scale.
My explanation is that this is an alternative reality, and the explosion impacted this other reality somehow. That wasn't the same Ben as "our" Ben, which is why "our" Ben is still stuck on the island, giving really creepy eulogies. The realities could have diverged before the 815 crash and in fact Locke's story implies that that must have happened. Maybe it diverged before any of these people were born. The blast from our reality could have sunk the island in the alt-reality at any point after the houses and the four-toed statue were built. Could have been way back to the 1940s.
Smokey's conversation with drunken Sawyer was wonderfully written. Even blitzed, Sawyer is sharp enough to zero right in on the difference been Locke and Smokey. It's a real treat seeing scenes like that, written by great writers and performed by great actors. It'll suck when this show is over because there's nothing on network TV certainly that can touch it.
And speaking of Smokey, I never would have guessed that critter would emerge as a character at all, much less a fascinating one. So is the secret of the island that it's a prison for some malevolent force of nature that used to be human in the dim, distant past? Was the island chosen not because anyone was directly interested in its wacky properties, but because those properties made it useful as a prison? Did Jacob perhaps create those properties in order to turn the island into a prison and shield humanity from this malevolent force??? WOW! And that would explain why not pushing the buttons endangers the world - it lowered the security fence!
Locke and Ben being teachers in the same school is both horrifying and inevitable.
The numbers = Losties thing is something I've never considered and throws it all into a new, eerie light. I think Sun is the "Kwon" who is Candidate 42. The six Losties mapped to numbers are also the Losties who have shown some leadership potential. I remember thinking early on that Jack, Sayid and Sun should form a leadership council - between the three of them, they could bring different strengths to the council and form a solid team.
I'm going with the theory that the blond boy is Jacob; killing him just resets him to a younger self and he bounces right back.
On second thought, maybe this deserved an Excellent. Lost skews so high that it's hard to figure out the proper scale.
That was absolutely classic Lost.- I liked that Ben had a few words to say at Locke's burial. Then there was Frank... "Weirdest damn funeral I've ever seen." I burst out laughing at that.
My explanation is that this is an alternative reality, and the explosion impacted this other reality somehow. That wasn't the same Ben as "our" Ben, which is why "our" Ben is still stuck on the island, giving really creepy eulogies. The realities could have diverged before the 815 crash and in fact Locke's story implies that that must have happened. Maybe it diverged before any of these people were born. The blast from our reality could have sunk the island in the alt-reality at any point after the houses and the four-toed statue were built. Could have been way back to the 1940s.
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Yeah, Aaron is with his Grandmother, Claire's mother.
Take a look at the kid again.
He looks just like Jacob.
Ethan was with Dharma, no? And much of Dharma evacuated via the sub before the nuke went off. Whereas Ben had just been healed by the Others, and was with them. Does this mean that the Others were evacuating too? I actually don't remember how much the Others would have known about what Jack was planning to do with the nuke. Hawking helped him find it, but did the other Others know what was going on?
Of course they diverged before the 815 crash. They diverged at the time that the Island sunk.
That's what I'm wondering about. Ben showing up seems to suggest that *either* the changes in the timeline go back earlier than 1977 or else the Others evacuated the Island before the nuke went off.
I am now currently convinced that the flash-sideways aren't what we think we're seeing. I think that they're the lives the Losties are leading without Jacob's interference. It all seems cozy at the moment, and could ultimately see everyone with a happy ending. I doubt that's all there is to it though.
Anyway, I voted Excellent. I wondered if we'd see Katey Segal again in Locke's new flash-sideways so was immensely happy when she appeared. And they're getting married! She mentioned that them, her parents and Locke's father should just go to Vegas. What the hell? Are they on good terms? How did Locke become paralysed?
I enjoyed immensely the vision of Ben as a teacher, almost as much as his strange eulogies! Frank quipping about it being weird was top notch. I liked that Locke was finally buried with the rest of the fallen Losties. The way the camera lingered on the graves made me wonder if Sun would comment on some of her dead friends.
The off-island connection between the Losties gets stronger. We knew Hurley owned Locke's company from the first season, but having him show up to rescue Locke from his predicament was kinda neat. Rose was there too, but her cancer was too unfortunately, now that she's not on the island. What does it all mean?
I loved the walk through the cave at the end with NotLocke and Sawyer. James has had so much hurt, so I can see why he'd follow NotLocke despite Richard's warnings. I don't fully believe anything NotLocke has said, and I don't fully believe Sawyer is with him. Damned show, I trust nothing and no one!
The reveal of the names and numbers had me gasping in amazement. I think NotLocke is playing Sawyer though, but like I said, I think Sawyer is just going along with it for now.
Anyway, I voted Excellent. I wondered if we'd see Katey Segal again in Locke's new flash-sideways so was immensely happy when she appeared. And they're getting married! She mentioned that them, her parents and Locke's father should just go to Vegas. What the hell? Are they on good terms? How did Locke become paralysed?
I enjoyed immensely the vision of Ben as a teacher, almost as much as his strange eulogies! Frank quipping about it being weird was top notch. I liked that Locke was finally buried with the rest of the fallen Losties. The way the camera lingered on the graves made me wonder if Sun would comment on some of her dead friends.
The off-island connection between the Losties gets stronger. We knew Hurley owned Locke's company from the first season, but having him show up to rescue Locke from his predicament was kinda neat. Rose was there too, but her cancer was too unfortunately, now that she's not on the island. What does it all mean?
I loved the walk through the cave at the end with NotLocke and Sawyer. James has had so much hurt, so I can see why he'd follow NotLocke despite Richard's warnings. I don't fully believe anything NotLocke has said, and I don't fully believe Sawyer is with him. Damned show, I trust nothing and no one!
The reveal of the names and numbers had me gasping in amazement.
I think NotLocke is playing Sawyer though, but like I said, I think Sawyer is just going along with it for now.
