Lost 6x04: "The Substitute"

[Temis the Vorta]

Of course they diverged before the 815 crash. They diverged at the time that the Island sunk.

Well this may be semantics, but the Island wouldn't have sunk unless 815 crashed...

The real point is that we don't know when the island sunk in the alternate reality. We can't assume it happened in the '70s (and it doesn't seem possible anyway) so that helps with the logic.

I am now currently convinced that the flash-sideways aren't what we think we're seeing. I think that they're the lives the Losties are leading without Jacob's interference.

Meaning, the blast in one reality did not have any impact on the other reality, and Jacob has the ability to move across realities and change his behavior so that the realities diverge? Jacob, not the blast, is behind it all?

It would be weird if the blast had no impact on what we're seeing. We have no evidence of it, but Juliet's "It worked" tells me that the writers want us to believe the blast had an impact.

She mentioned that them, her parents and Locke's father should just go to Vegas. What the hell? Are they on good terms? How did Locke become paralysed?

That's an easy plotline to whomp up. Locke was raised by his dad. At some point, dad was driving when there was a car accident that paralyzed Locke. Karma's a bitch!

 

[Mr Light]

I thought the premiere told us that the sideways time line is where the nuclear bomb worked, ie it sunk the Island in 1977.

 

[Mr Awe]

^^ Well, the island was sunk but we can't be sure when because we didn't see it happen. However, that is reasonable. Especially because we saw that it had the Dharma buildings on it when it sank. Help pins down the time.

 

[chrisspringob]

^^ Well, the island was sunk but we can't be sure when because we didn't see it happen. However, that is reasonable. Especially because we saw that it had the Dharma buildings on it when it sank. Help pins down the time.

That's right. We don't know *for sure* how the Island sunk, but the obvious implication from what we've seen is that it sunk because the nuke went off. I mean, Faraday initially says that you can't change history. Then he's like "My bad. I guess you can change history." Then Jack says "OK, let's change history by blowing up the Island." Then they set the nuke off, and we're now following a timeline in which the Island is on the ocean floor, complete with Dharma buildings.

Call me crazy, but I think the obvious implication is that the alt-timeline is one that diverges from the original timeline as of 1977 when the nuke goes off. Of course, the writers could still give us new information that leads us in a different direction, but that's the default assumption I would go with for now.

Now, Temis says that the Island wouldn't have sunk if 815 didn't crash, so the above doesn't make sense. But of course all that would have to happen is for 815 to have crashed in the *original* timeline (as it did). 815 crashes, and Losties go back in time and muck around in the 70s. Even if they do something back in the 70s that negates the crash in the first place, that's OK, as they're just creating a new timeline. It's the same as JJ-Trek time travel rules. Spock, Nero, etc. go back in time and change history, but their own personal histories are all preserved in the original timeline, so it's all good.

But then we're back to my original question: If the timelines only diverge from 1977, then how does Ben get off the Island and survive to see 2004? IIRC, he was with the Others, not Dharma, when the bomb went off, so he wouldn't have been part of the Dharma evacuation.

 

[Mallet]

I still don't think the nuke sunk the island directly. First, the original bomb "Jughead" was a small bomb from the 1950's, so not very powerful. Second, they only took out the "core" of the bomb, so only a very small part, of that already small bomb, was detonated. So what they detonated would be tiny, possibly not even nuclear. Either way, not even nearly powerful enough to destroy a tiny fraction of the Island. Plus, it was detonated underground, so that already, would help contain the blast. A full bomb from that era, in perfect condition and fully intact, detonated above ground in the air for optimal blast and destruction, would only destroy out to about 4 miles from "ground zero" and even then the last 2 miles of that would only be "blast damage" leaving most thing still standing. The island in Lost is huge. It's an 8 hour walk to just the cable in the sand. It's a 2 and a half day hike to the Other's village, from the Losties camp.

Also, Jack & Faraday's plan wasn't to "destroy the island" it was to destroy the pocket of unstable energy located where the Swan station was. If they destroyed that unstable energy back in 1977, then Desmond wouldn't miss pushing the button in 2004 and flight 815 wouldn't crash.

In fact what Jack & the Losties did in 1977, destroying the unstable energy, really seems a lot like what Desmond did in 2004 when he blew up the station by turning the fail safe key, which according to the guy he was in the hatch with originally would blow the whole thing up.

So all I think the mini-nuke going off in 1977 did, was the same thing Desmond did in 2004, when he blew it up with the fail safe.

In fact they even ended up around the same hole in the ground as the one Desmond created and they all lived, just like Desmond, Locke and Eko lived through the original destruction of the energy pocket.

Maybe these "flashsideways" we are seeing are similar to the "flashes before your eyes" that Desmond saw right after turning the fail safe key?

 

[Daosx]

Questions posed:

-Who is the boy that Locke and Sawyer see?
-How does Ilana know so much about Jacob and Smokey and the rules governing Smokey?
-What is the purpose of the cave?
-What is the purpose of the list in the cave?
-What caused Locke to be paralyzed, yet still on somewhat good terms with his dad?
-Why was Smokey brought to the island, and what made him into the monster?
-What is Smokey recruiting for?
-Why are people who were on the island yet not on the same flight still encountering each other so much in the flash sideways?

Questions answered (sort of):

-Maybe that the numbers are associated with people? That still doesn't explain their significance.
-Smokey used to be a person, or so he says, but is this really saying much, or just expanding upon how he already said he wants to go home?

I don't see this as being the "time for answers." I still enjoyed the episode quite a bit, but I find their ads to be too misleading. I wouldn't count on figuring anything substantial out until the finale, and that every episode up until then will pose more questions than it answers.

You forgot, how was Hurley able to park close enough to Lock that Lock couldn't get into his handicap seat, but Hurley was able to get out?

 

[TheGodBen]

I voted Excellent for one simple reason; after the events of the season 5 finale I never thought I'd see my beloved Locke again, but this episode brought him back to me. And it promised an interesting friendship between him and JJBen. I really hope that we get to see much more of JJLocke in the JJverse because we're not going to see any of him in the prime timeline.

I really enjoyed this episode not only for the happenings in the JJverse, I also love the fact that James has taken Juliet's death hard and this has brought him to a place where he's willing to follow notLocke. Sawyer is now behind Locke and Ben in my rankings of favourite characters, so an episode featuring those three was just awesome. Even Kate wouldn't have been able to bring down this episode and, luckily, she didn't even try!

Locke's funeral was priceless, Frank summed it up perfectly.

 

[coolghoul]

You forgot, how was Hurley able to park close enough to Lock that Lock couldn't get into his handicap seat, but Hurley was able to get out?

You are right, of course!

 

[gh4chiefs]

Questions posed:

-Who is the boy that Locke and Sawyer see?
-How does Ilana know so much about Jacob and Smokey and the rules governing Smokey?
-What is the purpose of the cave?
-What is the purpose of the list in the cave?
-What caused Locke to be paralyzed, yet still on somewhat good terms with his dad?
-Why was Smokey brought to the island, and what made him into the monster?
-What is Smokey recruiting for?
-Why are people who were on the island yet not on the same flight still encountering each other so much in the flash sideways?

Questions answered (sort of):

-Maybe that the numbers are associated with people? That still doesn't explain their significance.
-Smokey used to be a person, or so he says, but is this really saying much, or just expanding upon how he already said he wants to go home?

I don't see this as being the "time for answers." I still enjoyed the episode quite a bit, but I find their ads to be too misleading. I wouldn't count on figuring anything substantial out until the finale, and that every episode up until then will pose more questions than it answers.

You forgot, how was Hurley able to park close enough to Lock that Lock couldn't get into his handicap seat, but Hurley was able to get out?

OMG that's priceless. Thanks for that, I need that laugh.

 

[Mr Light]

What does JJverse stand for?

 

[Obiwanshinobi]

The what if timeline I'm guessing

 

[Tom Hendricks]

What I'm trying to comprehend is why these rules would apply to Ben and Whidmore.

 

[McCoy]

If the island took a little time to eventually sink after the blast, most on the island may have had enough time to get off.

 

[Adm. Bonz]

Voted Excellent!

Loved it when Locke yelled at the kid, "You can't tell me what to do!"

Also Jacob's Cave is awesome....but, where is Kate's name?

She is the key to it all.

 

[spinnerlys]

What does JJverse stand for?

Jeffrey Jacob's Universe, taken from J. J. Abrams I think.


I think the Incident sunk the island in that alternate universe, and as Miles and Daniel warned Dr. Chang of the immediate danger and advised him to safe all the women and children via the sub.

Maybe they got of the island in time, thus Ben and Ethan can be still existing.

 

[chrisspringob]

I think the Incident sunk the island in that alternate universe, and as Miles and Daniel warned Dr. Chang of the immediate danger and advised him to safe all the women and children via the sub.

Maybe they got of the island in time, thus Ben and Ethan can be still existing.

But, at that time, Ben was with the Others, not with Dharma, right? Thus, I'm not sure how Dharma evacuating helps Ben.

 

[spinnerlys]

I think the Incident sunk the island in that alternate universe, and as Miles and Daniel warned Dr. Chang of the immediate danger and advised him to safe all the women and children via the sub.

Maybe they got of the island in time, thus Ben and Ethan can be still existing.

But, at that time, Ben was with the Others, not with Dharma, right? Thus, I'm not sure how Dharma evacuating helps Ben.

Yeah, I forgot that. Maybe they transported them to the sub anyway.

And an island takes a while to sink I think, unless they use the donkey wheel.

We'll see. At least we don't have to wait much longer, unless they come up with the idea to split the season like with BSG.

 

[Mallet]

Maybe they got of the island in time, thus Ben and Ethan can be still existing.

Ben was still with the Others at the time of the incident and the sub had already left so no way he got off the island that way.

I'm still holding to the theory that the Incident did not sink the island. At least not directly and suddenly.
I think it either led to a chain reaction of events, like Dharma eventually abandoning the island to the Hostiles, then in-fighting amongst the hostiles since they had no new leader (assuming young Ben left with Dharma) and eventually something that should have happened didn't, or someone ended up trying to move the island and they moved it wrong so it ended up underwater, or something like that.

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

I can buy Ethan being evacuated, but not Ben who was still with The Others.

Another theory is that Jughead didn't immediately sink the island, it just shattered several foundations and the "sinking" was a more gradual process, a la the Titanic sinking slowly over the course of an hour. Enough time for people to rush to an exit.

 

[Seven of Five]

I am now currently convinced that the flash-sideways aren't what we think we're seeing. I think that they're the lives the Losties are leading without Jacob's interference.

Meaning, the blast in one reality did not have any impact on the other reality, and Jacob has the ability to move across realities and change his behavior so that the realities diverge? Jacob, not the blast, is behind it all?

It would be weird if the blast had no impact on what we're seeing. We have no evidence of it, but Juliet's "It worked" tells me that the writers want us to believe the blast had an impact.

I think there is enough wiggle room for "It worked" to refer to anything - the blast did send the Losties back to their original time after all.

Perhaps the island also sinks as a result of whatever happens this season? I really don't know what I'm waffling about, just another crackpot theory for the pile really!