Lost 6x04: "The Substitute"

[label]

Count me in as one who thought the episode was very good/excellent. Locke episodes generally are, though this one started <apparently> uncovering some of the core mysteries of the island.

I trust that they sideways timeline will not be for naught and one will tie into the other. (Personally, I hope the sideways timeline leads back into the current island timeline).

It remains to be seen whether the sideways people have any memories of their past or not or whether they'll ever get them, but if they do, I think that points to the sideways timeline feeding into the current one.

I do hope it's not the other way around because I don't like the idea of their final fate being off the island, or at least for most of them.

Anyway, I sincerely hope Sawyer is playing Flocke because after the last 2-3 seasons of watching Sawyer evolve as a character, I'd hate to think he'd revert back to season 1-2 form.........that'd be extremely disappointing.

All in all, 8.7/10

 

[Starbreaker]

I don't really want to go back and read this whole thread, but is the general consensus now that Smokey has been judging people to determine if they are candidates for whatever?

 

[label]

I don't really want to go back and read this whole thread, but is the general consensus now that Smokey has been judging people to determine if they are candidates for whatever?

My guess is that smokey is not allowed to kill any candidate directly, much as he couldn't kill Jacob directly.

 

[Mr Light]

But why call it the JJverse, JJ Abrams hasn't had jack to do with the show since the pilot.

 

[D Man]

^^I think he wrote the season 3 premiere, or at least he was credited for it. It's definitely clear that Damon & Carlton have been the show runners all along, though.

 

[TheGodBen]

But why call it the JJverse, JJ Abrams hasn't had jack to do with the show since the pilot.

Actually, he co-wrote the season 3 opener with Lindelof. He is also still listed as an EP

Otherwise, it's a joke, entertainment franchises that JJ Abrams are involved with tend to like doing alternate timeline stuff recently. And lets not forget that Lindelof was a producer on Trek XI, and it is rumoured he will be co-writing the script for Trek XI II.

 

[Starbreaker]

JJ jumped ship to work on Mission Impossible III early in season one. He did in fact co-write A Tale of Two Cities also.

 

[RoJoHen]

Theory based on this episode, trying to reconcile the Alternate Timeline:

The Alternate Timeline wasn't caused by the fact that the island blew up. It was caused by the fact that Jacob died! Jacob, whose influence exists outside of time, was the one who tried to steer these characters towards crashing onto the island. When he died, all of his influence was voided. But because his influence was so subtle, many of the characters ended up in very similar situations.

Did we ever see him touch Desmond? Even if we didn't see it, I bet you he did. And for whatever reason Desmond ended up not going on his race around the world (or maybe he did but the island had sunk by that point), which means Oceanic 815 doesn't crash.

In the context of this episode, perhaps somehow Locke and his father managed to reconcile after he pushed him out the window. Perhaps Helen was able to put aside her feelings towards Locke's father and help him through his recovery.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The Alternate Timeline wasn't caused by the fact that the island blew up. It was caused by the fact that Jacob died! Jacob, whose influence exists outside of time,

That solves the problem of "how could any blast jump realities?" Is there something supernatural about a nuke? There shouldn't be anything from one reality that can just migrate to the other, unless it's supernatural to begin with, and Jacob qualifies. It could have been Jacob dying or even an event that hasn't happened yet, in the timeline we're watching.

And there's no reason we have to believe that the event in Reality A had to impact Reality B at just the same time in the timeline - they're two entirely separate timelines, after all.

 

[RoJoHen]

Exactly. The more I try to think about the nuke, the less sense it makes. It managed to knock our heroes back to their own time, and maybe it sank the island, but I think that has to be the extent of the nuke's impact.

I also think there just has to be more to these flashbacks of Jacob visiting our characters. They wouldn't be reminding us of them without them having more than just one obvious explanation. These flashes sideways aren't there for our health. They're there for a reason.

 

[Hermiod]

^I think your theory makes a great deal of sense.

We've seen that there are significant differences between the two universes that can't possibly be explained just by Flight 815 not crashing.

It doesn't explain why Jin and Sun aren't married, why Desmond was on the plane, why Locke and Jack's cargo went missing, why Shannon didn't agree to go back to the US or why Hurley is suddenly blessed with good luck instead of cursed with bad.

 

[gh4chiefs]

I haven't seen much comment about the gal's comment (can't remember her name) that NotLocke can't change forms now, that's he's locked (no pun intended) into Locke's form. Yet at the beginning of the episode, when he was looking for James, it appeared as if he was in the form of Smoky.

So what's the deal with that and what happened from the time he found James up to the point where she said he can't change anymore. What transpired that prevents him from changing now?

 

[RoJoHen]

It doesn't explain why Jin and Sun aren't married, why Desmond was on the plane, why Locke and Jack's cargo went missing, why Shannon didn't agree to go back to the US or why Hurley is suddenly blessed with good luck instead of cursed with bad.

The season is young.

 

[Hermiod]

It doesn't explain why Jin and Sun aren't married, why Desmond was on the plane, why Locke and Jack's cargo went missing, why Shannon didn't agree to go back to the US or why Hurley is suddenly blessed with good luck instead of cursed with bad.

The season is young.

Sorry, just looking back at my wording - your theory does explain these things. It's the nuke that doesn't.

 

[Hermiod]

I haven't seen much comment about the gal's comment (can't remember her name) that NotLocke can't change forms now, that's he's locked (no pun intended) into Locke's form. Yet at the beginning of the episode, when he was looking for James, it appeared as if he was in the form of Smoky.

So what's the deal with that and what happened from the time he found James up to the point where she said he can't change anymore. What transpired that prevents him from changing now?

I think she meant he can't appear as anyone else. He can still go from Smokey to Locke and back again whenever he wants.

In my view, we've now got NotLocke/Smokey/whatever and those he has "recruited" - namely Sayid and possibly Claire (and maybe others such as Christian). That's why the Others were trying to kill Sayid, because he died and was resurrected by NotLocke and has, as such, been recruited.

 

[RoJoHen]

It doesn't explain why Jin and Sun aren't married, why Desmond was on the plane, why Locke and Jack's cargo went missing, why Shannon didn't agree to go back to the US or why Hurley is suddenly blessed with good luck instead of cursed with bad.

The season is young.

Sorry, just looking back at my wording - your theory does explain these things. It's the nuke that doesn't.

Ah, okay.

I can't wait until the end of the season when I find out I'm totally wrong!

 

[Hermiod]

Ah, okay.

I can't wait until the end of the season when I find out I'm totally wrong!

Yeah, I've had my theories in the past that fit all of the available facts only for a season finale to throw in a bunch of new ones that don't fit at all!

 

[gh4chiefs]

I haven't seen much comment about the gal's comment (can't remember her name) that NotLocke can't change forms now, that's he's locked (no pun intended) into Locke's form. Yet at the beginning of the episode, when he was looking for James, it appeared as if he was in the form of Smoky.

So what's the deal with that and what happened from the time he found James up to the point where she said he can't change anymore. What transpired that prevents him from changing now?

I think she meant he can't appear as anyone else. He can still go from Smokey to Locke and back again whenever he wants.

Well I didn't initially take it that way but I guess that would make sense as far as Smoky goes, but what about not being able to change into other people. What's different now from the past when he's (apparently) appeared as such people as Echo's brother or Alex in the temple with Ben? The only thing that jumps out at me is the apparent demise of Jacob.

 

[Jaron]

I haven't seen much comment about the gal's comment (can't remember her name) that NotLocke can't change forms now, that's he's locked (no pun intended) into Locke's form. Yet at the beginning of the episode, when he was looking for James, it appeared as if he was in the form of Smoky.

So what's the deal with that and what happened from the time he found James up to the point where she said he can't change anymore. What transpired that prevents him from changing now?

I think she meant he can't appear as anyone else. He can still go from Smokey to Locke and back again whenever he wants.

Well I didn't initially take it that way but I guess that would make sense as far as Smoky goes, but what about not being able to change into other people. What's different now from the past when he's (apparently) appeared as such people as Echo's brother or Alex in the temple with Ben? The only thing that jumps out at me is the apparent demise of Jacob.

Perhaps the fact that Locke was a candidate?

 

[Hermiod]

^Depends on whether or not Claire was also a candidate.

I also found Kate not being a candidate an interesting choice since Jacob clearly steered her to the Island as well.