I always notice the gays in the background--there are a few really noticeable extras. It's too bad they never get a storyline. I always kind of wonder how they get on in Oz.
Right, makes me wonder too. I just had to think of poor Richie Hanlon, he was a drug dealer who actually seemed to be nice (or at least nicer than many others), but his customer had a bad reaction to the drugs, I'm thinking that he actually called for help himself and got arrested because of that. But the gay guy who got released was actually guilty of cutting someone's head off and got free!
Oh, yeah, the bus accident! That was in the first episode of season five. That was really sad--so many inmates lost family members. And it was the first visit after a long time of not allowing any visits, too. It was really sad.
Yeah, you get to see and like the visitors (like Augustus's mom!
So likeable) and then they all die, very sad.
Keller kind of initiated it, but yeah, I hear you--Howell didn't really take no for an answer. She didn't with Ryan, either. And yeah, I felt so bad for Beecher--the way he got all nervous and played with his hair before going to see Keller (like I said... such a teenage girl sometimes!
) and then found he wasn't there!
I guess Keller flirts with *everyone*, seems to be in his nature. XD But I like how when he had enough of Howell, he actually gave her a piece of his mind and insulted her, his taste in women was apparently still intact
(Howell!sex was always horror in my eyes, even for needy prisoners!)
Haha, teenage girl!Beecher is awesome! XD Loved the thing about his hair, too. :3 During their next meeting (finally!) there's also a very cute moment where Chris freezes before he turns around when Toby calls his name.
Yeah, when Vern finally fessed up, the word he used was "abused" not "raped." But Said saying that Vern raped Beecher should have carried some weight. Said had some credibility in Oz. And Beecher was so vocal about it. Couldn't they have just done a rape kit on him or something? Though maybe he wasn't vocal about it when it was actually happening, though everyone seemed to know it was even back then.
I rewatched a bit and Vern was in the hole for the rapes after Beecher accused him but he claimed that the sex was consensual and Winthrop would testify that it was >_> I guess rape's always hard to prove. Yeah, Said was credible, but I don't think he was really a witness, or was he? The whole thing's unrealistic anyway. With the guards monitoring Em City 24/7 and glass walls everywhere, how can rapes even go unnoticed?
In Peter's case, though, no one was talking about it. If Peter had named his rapist, I wonder if Adebisi would have been punished.
Good question... I wonder how circumstantial everything is. I mean, everone also knew Adebisi poisoned Schibetta but there was no proof and with the rape, it would be Adebisi's word against Schibetta's.
Yeah, I remember how cold Beecher looked--almost on par with Keller and O'Reily. It wasn't long before he showed remorse... and I was really glad about that. I think Beecher wanted to drive Vern nuts, but I don't believe he ever actually wanted Andy dead.
Yes, exactly... I feel bad for Andy being a victim to their fight!
Vern would have kept them off drugs, but he really filled them with hate. He tried to make them little neo-Nazis like he was, and he turned Hank into a murderer.
Right, I felt his sons were actually reasonable, but Hank was a monster after all for doing something horrible for money, even though he claimed the kidnapping "isn't his style". I liked the scene after Mukada's lecture where Vern wanted him to "drop the other package... alive" though
Yeah, I guess I sympathize with Glynn more because he was going through something terrible at the time. Maybe it wasn't fair to take it out on Miguel, but Alvarez certainly seemed to enjoy the fact that he knew who raped Glynn's daughter and Glynn didn't. And then he lied to Glynn, too. That pissed me off.
Yeah, but I think he was enjoying it because in his eyes Glynn had wronged him before. Glynn even bound him and wanted to hit him with the cane, until Mukada stepped him, that was Miguel's confirmation of "he deserves this shit". Of course it was stupid of him nonetheless. But Miguel always seemed insensitive when it came to rape, I remember that he sounded gleeful after Schibetta's rape (he was the one who saw him at the sickbay). That's typical for the inmates though I guess... The only prisoners who we saw and heard being definitely against rape were Richie, Beecher and Said.
I think it probably was more that he was trying to punish Keller and not reward him by letting him see Beecher, but it did show some awareness on his part of the fact that Beecher was kind of a perpetual victim.
It always surprises me how little contact Glynn has with the prisoners. McManus and the COs are really the ones who know the prisoners.
Yes, I think that made me dislike Glynn sometimes. He was sitting on his throne (the Governor was worse of course) and passing judgement, arguing with McManus who actually cared for the prsoners.
Yeah, I liked it a lot--they had what was one of the more genuine friendships in Oz. I felt bad for Shirley, too, after he died and she unraveled the sweater she was making for him.
BTW, how far is Moses where you're watching? I found the end of his story sad, too.
LOL! I thought it was so funny how Augustus was so afraid Beecher was going to bite his dick off.
I thought putting Beecher and Augustus in a cell together was actually really good for Beecher. Augustus was someone who couldn't rape Beecher even if he wanted to, and Beecher probably needed that security. And Beecher wouldn't hurt Augustus, because Beecher only hurt people who hurt him. It was actually a good roommate situation.
Yeah, it was funny to hear, because poor Augustus had all reasons to be afraid, Beecher was a crazy bitch at that time
He couldn't tell like the audience if Toby would flip and hurt him or not. Hill, Bob and Busmalis or Said would've been the best roommates for Beecher I guess! The peaceful and therapeutic ones XD (though not so much in the Hernandez / Bob case)
I loved that!
I think Beecher was doing everything he could to not be attractive to Keller. The first thing Keller asked him was if he was gay, so I'm sure that put Beecher off right away--he was probably wondering if Keller was going to try to force himself on him, too. The crazy rhyming and the ugly beard were the things he hid behind, trying to make himself less attractive to all the sexual predators in Oz. As soon as Keller broke through those defenses, Toby shaved the beard and stopped talking crazy.
Yes, I also think he wanted to intimidate him, he had to look tough to protect himself. But didn't he shave his beard because of his daughter visiting? But it was Chris' advice AFAIR.
And now I wonder what happened to Toby's glasses, doesn't he need them anymore...?
Me too!!! You know, I have to say, I think Sister Pete made the wrong call having Peter talk to Gloria and not Beecher. Beecher would have been a much better choice, since he was another guy and also pretty open to talking about what happened to him. I'm almost to the end of season five, so when I get to the deleted scenes, I will let you know!
Yes, I did wonder about that too. So many male victims and then she picks Gloria? It was a cute scene though, how Peter is so awkward and even afraid to sit down besides her. In season 6 there's even a therapy group with rape victims, pity we didn't get to see Peter there (especially becaue one of those victims would be someone he knows..
)
He claimed to be, but he lied and said he didn't remember it--and then later was telling other inmates about it. If he was that drunk, he probably couldn't have gotten it up. I think he was just a lying ass.
I haven't gotten to his death yet--I guess I'll see how I feel when I get there. Right now, I see nothing redeeming about him. Rape is the one crime where there's never really a mitigating circumstance--even murder can be self-defense, but there's never a reason to rape someone. I can't feel bad that he got a taste of his own medicine.
Oh, sorry for the spoiler, I thought he was already dead! Yes, many sentences seem strange to me, because IMO rape and deliberate murder are much worse than theft or accidental murder, some people in the flashbacks seem so much worse than others but got less punishment. I mean, Augustus f.e. didn't mean to kill the policeman and even got his legs broken but he's in prison for life. And Nino Schibetta is in for 100+ years because of conspiracy of two murders, he could've done it himself and probably still get less
Awwww, I know! I felt so bad for Toby in that scene. I saw a comment somewhere that said basically Toby wasn't in love--he was just extremely emotionally dependent and needy, and I do think that's part of it (though I also think he does love Keller). Basically Toby fell for the first person that showed him any kindness and affection in there. You just feel so bad for Toby in that scene because he's so needy and sad and Keller's so cruel to him.
Needy teenage girl in love, huh?
Keller basically responded to Toby's question, "Are you giving me and order?" by looking right at Said and saying, "Fuck yes." Keller really thought of Toby as his... property for lack of a better word at that point I think. Not that that was healthy at all, but ultimately Keller was right. And even though he was a nutty psycho at times, I kind of think Toby should have just let Keller protect him and take care of him for a while. Keller is so much more savvy about the way Oz and the inmates in it work and think than Beecher is.
It was probably the vibe Keller gave off. He was gentle and loving with Toby, but there was a real hardness about him otherwise--something in his eyes, maybe. You can really see it in the scenes where he watches Toby in his pod in season three--there's something really dark and dangerous there. And I'm sure it didn't hurt that on his first day there, he broke someone's nose!
Yeah, Keller really seems like a predator. Now that you mention it, I loved those "watching his prey at night" scenes
And also how he once pulled his shorts down and showed him his ass
Actually, all staring-at-each-other contests (Adebisi - Schibetta - Miguel, Ryan - the Asian, Beecher - Keller etc) were funny.
I also had the impression Keller would definitely be able to survive prison. When he told Toby they would see each other again (before he was transferred) I totally believed him. Like he said somewhere "They stab me, they shoot me... I ain't going down"
I loved, loved, loved Keller and Ryan working together! The two schemers plotting everything out... and of course, it worked perfectly. Keller got to kill the guys who slept with Beecher and Ryan got what he wanted--Querns gone.
Yeah, their interactions were great... both doing what they do best, Ryan manipulating people and Keller seducing and killing them. Especially the scene with his old friend Ronnie was intense
Loved how Beecher told him Ronnie is thinking about snitching on Keller even though the two of them were at war.
The IRA guy was the guy at the end of season four with the bomb. At first he rejected Ryan's overture of friendship, but eventually they teamed up. Ryan definitely liked fellow Irishmen--I remember he was really friendly with Murphy when he first became the CO in charge of Em City, too. And yet, Ryan is not a fan of his new roommate the priest, at least right now.
Oh right, I remember. I loved the Murphy / Ryan dynamic too though he was using the common Irishness to his advantage... like always. XD
Yeah, I think that was one of those flashes of humanity from him, helping Peter. Poor Peter was so obviously in need of help, and Adebisi did have flashes of kindness. I think that was one of those.
I'd like to think so! Peter was such a mess, I wasn't even sure if it was him at first, he was so child-like, crying and overstrained with the situation. Even Adebisi commented something like "Peter, you used to be so neat and clean". I wonder what cocky!Peter would've said that "stinky" Adebisi of all people had to help him wash his face
Cyril was somewhat, but I imagine Ryan had a reputation for being a snake. Even though he got away with a lot of what he did, people still seemed to know he was involved.
Exactly, that's why I find it strange he can still so easily manipulate everyone, he's not really credible anymore.
There were a lot of drug politics the first season that kind of built towards violent ends, like Schibetta's. I think Nino was kind of old guard--and maybe not ruthless enough to stay on top much longer.
Yes, maybe. Nino was really oldschool, loved his quote in the first episode
:
Joey D'Angelo: He ate his mother.
Nino Schibetta: Get out of here.
Joey D'Angelo: So I heard. He killed her, then he blew off her head, smothered it in onions.
Dino Ortolani: What, no garlic?
Joey D'Angelo: He had his father in the freezer.
Nino Schibetta: Sick fuck. What the fuck's wrong with this country? In the old days, murder was murder. You killed someone, it was business. You sure as Christ didn't eat them.
Dino Ortolani: Times have changed, Nino.
Nino Schibetta: Fuck that. Times changed. Nothing changes. Nothing ever changes.
I think that was the point, the new generation is just ruthless and fitter to survive.
That's a really good point. I think Said was still rejecting the Adebisi in him at that point. I don't think he wanted to help anyone then--he was resistant to helping Omar when McManus called on him for that, and he refused to protect Gunzel for Beecher. I think Beecher was a special case for him--seeing Vern and Robson assaulting Beecher brought out the Adebisi in Said--but he was working pretty hard to repress it in season 4.5/5, all the while getting angrier and angrier. So maybe that's why he didn't help Schibetta, and was so dismissive of him.
I liked the whole Said / Omar thing!
Hmh, yeah, now I kinda wonder if he would've done something if the Nazis had asssaulted Peter instead of Toby. But Said shanking them was so kick-ass
Yeah, he did. You could tell he was really pleased with himself once he tricked Toby into moving into his pod. I did kind of wonder if he was passing Toby around towards the end--like when he had the gay guy doll Toby up and then Toby came back to the pod and there were like three other Aryans with Schillinger. What do you think?
That was really nightmareish, when Toby moved to Schlllinger's pod and his true intentions came out. I wonder how it would've been if he had stayed with Adebisi, worse or better?
Hmh, I don't think so, it was never indicated. In Toby's case, when Vern grew tired of him he gave him that shirt so the others would kill him, right? There were prags he shared with others though I think, like Winthrop and Adam of course.
Yeah, that was a symbolically cool moment. One of my other favorite moments between the two is when Said catches Beecher making out with Shemin in the laundry room and he calls Beecher a slut! That cracked me up, but I thought it was cool that Said cared enough to say something to Beecher about his out-of-character behavior.
*rofl* I loved that, because it seemed so out of character of Said to tell someone he's a slut, too! I loved the beginning of their relationship, where everyone leaves Said because of Toby
and Toby's all like... "I still want you to teach me!" Two of the few individuals who would never turn their back on each other / friends in need, I guess.
I do have them, yeah, and I will definitely look for that deleted scene! I'm hoping to see the rest of season five and the extras tomorrow night.
I have a date with Oz tomorrow!
I've only listened to two of the commentaries, the one on the very first episode with Tom Fontana (the creator/writer of all of the eps) and the guy who plays Beecher, and the one on the last episode of season four, with Tom Fontana and the guy who plays Ryan and the guy who plays Beecher. One cool thing was that at the end of season four, they didn't know if they'd get another season, so Fontana wrote two possible endings for Beecher: one where he gets paroled and one where he doesn't. Since they were renewed for a fifth season, he went with the one where Beecher didn't get paroled, but he liked the footage from the one where Beecher did get out so much that he used it as the dream sequence! I thought that was pretty cool.
Ohh, you have to tell me what's on them! ^^
Yeah, I read that tidbit about Beecher's flashback, really cool! Sometimes I think it would've been better if they had stopped after season 4 (story- and qualitywise) but I'm glad there were 2 more seasons to see Peter (who wouldn't have been back otherwise), Chris, Toby and co.
Now that I'm finished I watch the shows with actors I liked from Oz, like Lost and I want to begin Law & Order SVU. ON yt, there's also a clip of Chris Meloni (and Shirley Bellinger's actress) at Jeopardy, it's so awesome!
He's a clever beast! Too bad there's absolutely nothing about Peter's actor, I couldn't find the movies he worked for anywhere =/
I'm loving this discussion!
Alas, I got home too late from work to get in an episode tonight. But definitely tomorrow.
I always look forward to your replies
BTW, do you read fanfictions? I've been looking around a bit lately, but though I love B / K, I'm disappoined how almost everything revolves around them in fandom
The other characters need love, too! XD
The rape he committed that landed him in Oz was brutal, he's not sorry for it (he claims not to remember--whatever 
I'm hoping I'll have time to watch it but the day is packed.
I love him. He's completely fascinating... so vulnerable and the least likely person to survive in Oz, and yet can call on these surprising reserves of strength. I think it's so endearing/sad that he hides behind insanity and unfortunate facial hair in the hopes of getting the other prisoners to leave him alone, and that it never quite works. And I love how he softens and becomes relaxed around Keller. There's something about Beecher that attracts other characters to him, whether it sexual or just curiosity/interest--people seem to either want to save him (Said) or fuck him (almost everyone else).
