Any OZ fans here?

That's why Bonnie, the HUUUUGE lady we saw when she visited him in season 3, was "the best" of his wives. Remember Sister Pete's face when she mistakenly thought a hot redhead was Bonnie and then Keller pointed out the real Bonnie and went and gave her a big hug? He said Bonnie was the best because she was so grateful to him and needed him so much and still loved him no matter how much he cheated on her and treated her like shit. Unconditional love. Like Beecher.

But can Schillinger really be an equal partner to anyone, let alone a guy he's screwing in prison? I find that hard to imagine, and there's Keller's quote that he let Vern think he was in control. I think their relationship probably started with Keller as a prag, having to repay the protection, but I don't think Schillinger ever tried to break and humiliate Keller as he did Beecher - Keller is not a successful middle-class lawyer, for starters - and Keller managed to prove himself and have Vern regard him more as a partner... I don't think Vern would consider having an equal relationship with a man, so naturally he doesn't have any sexual interest in Keller anymore.

At least this is how I imagine it based on the little info we have.

It may seem that way, but I wonder if it's that simple - or if Keller channelled some of his own secret resentment of Schillinger through Beecher. As I said, I think he respected Beecher for standing up to Vern... Keller would never have admitted to himself that he had resented Schillinger for anything that had happened between them, because he never wanted to think of himself as a victim.

I think that's why - he sees in them what he himself used to be, and hates them for it.

Speaking of which, remember this vision during one of Augustus' monologues? http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/80964517/5344582

Well, at least Querns was under that impression - he said "I've heard that you two like to fuck each other in the ass"!

Well, could it be because Pancamo actually wanted to be the boss and felt that Peter stood in his way and was just this incompetent daddy's boy?

 

I'll have to wait until I can type properly *just sneaking in* but :

The thing about Bonnie and the misunderstanding was great XD

I thought similar of the Vern / Chris thing. I don't think they were ever equal back then (not even Vern and Robson are truly equal) and that Chris started low and proved himself. He probably wasn't the classical prag, but we know he did sexual services... Remember that awesome first B / K conversation? "So, you a fag?" "No, you?" "I do what I have to"

I thought about that too but nothing really makes sense. Peter wasn't a threat to his leadership anymore, especially after he was raped the second time. One got the impression he didn't have much to do with the Sicilians anymore (he even said "Chucky, boys, long time no see" in a certain scene). Also, Pancamo thought of him as crazy and in the same moment decides to go after him... that storyline was one of the most inconsequent IMO (also with Chucky suddenly believing in curses when he even said he didn't in season 3... or calling Ryan a liar and believing him at the same time)

I do think Chucky saw him as an incompetent little brat (later on at least) and wanted to be leader himself, but many things don't fit together (also, while he was on the brink of death in the hospital he kept murmuring to Nino that he didn't mean to and he's sorry etc? °° )

 

It was okay. I think I was expecting something more.

The acting was good, dramatic for a prison show....

Towards the end, I kinda figured they were going to end with a shot of the prison by itself, with no inhabitants...

Go figure.

I was a good show for a first run; I don't see myself watching it again.

 

Me, too, lol! Well, shorter at least... hopefully to one post.

Yeah, I liked how Beecher was always able to be honest and forthright with Said. I think it was easier for Said to let out that pent up rage on Beecher's behalf than it would have been for him to just attack the Aryans for no ostensible reason, or because of some slight against him. I remember he was trying to jump into the fray in season three when Schillinger shanked Beecher, but was held back by one of the other Muslims.

It wasn't? I thought he was going to kill Redding, and then Augustus got in the way and got shanked instead. Maybe I'll have to look at that again...

I will, I should be able to watch those tonight!

I'll be honest, I wasn't sure either, but I guess if Adebisi kept him tied to a bed naked, he probably did?

Yeah, probably... Beecher seemed like such a little innocent lamb among them in the beginning. I'm surprised she didn't ask if he wanted a cell transfer--though I guess he had just gotten one, so they probably wouldn't move him again anyway. You'd think she'd know he was going from bad to worse when he moved from Adebisi's pod to Schillinger's!

It is, and interesting to see the different reactions. I remember how disgusted Rebadow looked when Keller was feeling Beecher up right in public.

It is random, but I can totally see it! I'm absolutely sure that's not what's going to happen , but it kind of makes you wonder, if it did, could they have been happy? Would Keller have worked all day and come home at night to a home-cooked meal from Beecher? And would Beecher have been happy with that life? Random aside, but I love how Beecher reads so much in prison... just a nice detail given his background. But anyways, I wonder if there's a potential for a "happily ever after" for Beecher and Keller.

Oh yeah, definitely. I think the sexual abuse stayed with Beecher--and kind of formed a pattern for his subsequent relationships (another reason I think he was on the bottom with Keller)--but that the psychological abuse was what drove him over the edge.

Yeah, when you first meet him, he seems so mild-mannered, at least relatively so. He'll defend himself if he needs to, but he was really pretty sweet and caring with Beecher.

I think he was good at keeping it together around the COs and Sister Pete. The crazy seemed to be how he kept other inmates at bay. I remember him rhyming when everyone from Em City got sent to Unit B and Robson was checking them all out. Guess it still didn't discourage Robson from sexually assaulting him, but Robson sure paid for that!

Yeah, I think having to work so hard to get Beecher back definitely inflamed his desire, but I think he saw something in Beecher before that that really made him want him, and want him to love him.

Yeah, that was funny! Which makes Beecher the confluence of the two--obviously he's a guy, but he's not a person Keller can either marry and discard or fuck and discard (kill). There's something about him that makes him everything that Keller wants--I guess I'm trying to figure out what that is. His goodness? The fact that he's constantly a challenge for Keller?

Wow, even more so than he has been so far by killing Toby's lovers?? Now I'm worried for Beecher....

Exactly. The show takes these guys who for the most part are pretty bad people (with notable exceptions like Beecher and Said) and makes them real and believable and even sympathetic.

The problem in part was that Schibetta didn't really endear himself to anyone before being raped by Adebisi, and the people he thought he could count on--his own people, basically--more or less abandoned him. He was one of those guys that totally got lost in the shuffle, and was more or less friendless. Which was sad.

Yeah, I loved that scene, and remember being surprised, too! I think you're right--Keller got a lot of his sense of self-worth and pride from being everything to someone. Obviously, he fucked that up with Bonnie not once but twice, and fucked it up with Beecher. With Beecher we saw it was because he wanted to control Beecher--though one thing I thought was interesting is how Keller was the one to leave midway in season four because Beecher thought he had his kids kidnapped. I think that was one instance where Keller was genuinely hurt and crushed and not playing a mind game. Of course, he couldn't stay away from Beecher for long, but it was interesting to see him take the stand he did.

Well, I can't imagine it was a healthy relationship, but I remember thinking--somewhat naively, probably--that it must not have been a sexual one when we saw how Keller and Vern were together in the gym when confronting Beecher. I was surprised when Keller told Sister Pete he and Schillinger had sex. So I imagine like you say, it probably started out with Keller repaying Schillinger's protection with sex, but then morphed into a partnership of equals at some point and the sex petered off.

I think that interesting combination of strength and vulnerability is certainly part of what drew Keller to Beecher, though Keller stood up to Vern himself by confessing to what they did to Beecher when Beecher dangled the possibility forgiveness in front of him. I definitely agree that he didn't want to think of himself as a victim, and that's why he looked at his past relationship with Schillinger the way he did.

That's interesting--I always kind of read that as him hating that he wanted to sleep with guys, but never thought of it as him seeing those guys he raped as himself. But why wouldn't he follow that pattern with Beecher, since if they were both raped by Vern, Beecher is easily the most literal representation of what he hates about himself?

LOL, I do, and have to admit that it's pretty impressive that Keller looks hot and manly even in women's underwear!

I don't think Querns knew the details of their relationship--I think he knew they had one, and wanted to reference it in a crass way. I don't know--maybe I'm wrong. It just seems like a big part of their relationship hinges on Keller trying to dominate Beecher... tell him what to do, control who he interacts with, influence those he interacts with, etc. It's not just that Keller wants to be in a relationship with Beecher--he wants to own him. It's hard to imagine that not translating into their sexual relationship.

I also remember a quote from the guy who plays Beecher about playing a lawyer turned convict who "gets anally raped and learns to love it." That and the commentary where Tom Fontana references Beecher "taking it up the ass from Keller" were things I saw/heard before I even saw them on screen together, so that could definitely be influencing my perception.

ETA: Almost forgot to add in the other scene that was very telling to me... in the first ep of season three, when Beecher came back and Keller was begging his forgiveness, Beecher said something like, "Why don't you let me fuck you in the ass?" and Keller kind of looked at him like, "Uh, yeah, not happening" and then went on to offer to let Beecher break his arms and legs and every bone in his body. To me that said Keller viewed the suggestion as pretty preposterous--not the way it was going to be with them. I remember back in season two when Beecher was drunk and said, "Let's fuck," Keller replied, "I don't want to fuck you, Beecher." I think it was Keller's attitude about it, too, that made me think that to him it was pretty clear who was in what position.

I read that as Keller talking about satisfying his urges, but in retrospect it can definitely be taken the other way! It was interesting how Beecher immediately viewed that as a threat and went into reciting a crazy rhyme. Keller's "wtf? Okaaay" expression was hilarious.

I'll be honest, part of me is worried everyone is going to die in the finale!

I kind of feel the opposite--if I had more time, I'd probably just go right back to the beginning and watch it all over again when I finish with season six! I might this summer, when I have more time. I'm so loving it.

 

I just finished watching the first episode of the sixth season. Another depressing one, at least in the end! I can't believe Winthrop killed Beecher's father!!! Beecher needs to stop doing good deeds, because they just bring misery to him. I loved the father--I recognize the actor from Gilmore Girls--and I think Beecher is going to be crushed. He had such a good relationship with his dad, and I thought it was sweet how his dad was defending Keller even though he despised him... because Toby asked him to. Can you imagine if your kid was dating Keller? Probably not too many parents would be over the moon about their son being in a relationship with a serial killer. Really upsetting, and I hope that Winthrop and Schillinger get in trouble for that. I guess there was yet another Aryan CO who left Beecher's dad alone with Winthrop.

I felt bad for Ryan when the priest died, too. It felt like Ryan was maybe coming around, like perhaps he was going to start praying with the guy. I do think he made an impact on Ryan though.

Timmy Kirk is eeeevil--Mukada is right! I can't believe he accused Mukada of sexual abuse. I hope the truth about that comes out soon.

Kirk might not be the only thing that's possessed--Cyril's puppet was saying things Cyril would never say! That was funny and eerie at the same time.

Howell is raping prisoners in solitary? I can't believe she was going to force Omar to have sex with her! She is one twisted, twisted person.

Poor Rebadow--he is still mourning his grandson, but it looks like he might enjoy working in the library at least.

Alvarez and Guerra made peace--I wonder if that will last!

It feels kind of random that Schibetta just now learned that O'Reily was behind his father's death. Doesn't he know better than to take on O'Reily? The guy is dangerous, and I'm not sure what Peter's angle is. Trying to reclaim some of his manhood/pride? I don't know... it feels like a mistake to me.

I only looked at one of the deleted scenes so far from season five... the one where Schibetta goes up to Beecher and asks him about being raped. Schibetta goes to Sister Pete's office and asks Beecher where she is. She's not around, so he asks Beecher, "You were raped, right?" and then asks him how he got people to stop looking at him like he was a punk. And Beecher says, "Did they stop?" And Schibetta says something like, "For an Italian man in my family to get taken like that..." and kind of trails off. And then Beecher says, "I know you're trying to reestablish yourself but you have to be careful not to do something foolhardy." And Schibetta responds that that's his only option and walks out. The scene is from the third episode of the fifth season... seems like Schibetta is definitely not taking Beecher's advice by taking on O'Reily now...

 

How did you like having someone else narrating the episode instead of Augustus? But not just anyone, but someone dead?

 

It was definitely different--kind of a cool way to bring back a character long since passed on the series. It was kind of cool to see Keane again! Is that how the rest of the season is going to be--a different dead person narrating each episode, or will it go back to being Augustus? I think it's a nice touch for the last season, and I'm glad Augustus is still around in spirit form to narrate... still sad about his death, though!

 

For the most part (I think one or two are just Augustus), it's a new person every episode. There were a couple of people who I would have liked to see return as oppose to a couple of those who did, but I won't say who returns. I want you to be pleasantly surprised as I was.

 

Just watched the second episode of the sixth season--Shirley Bellinger came back!!! OK, that was pretty cool. And scary that they put the imprint of the rope around her neck. But it was fun to see her back and narrating.

I gotta say, I'm seeing why people are hating on the sixth season. It's really kind of out there. I mean... a photo shoot for Maxim of the guys on death row?? That's just fucked up. ([shallow moment]Keller looked insanely hot though[/shallow moment]) The evil eye curse? And Robson and the spoon. What... the ... fuck. There's something kind of unpleasant and depressing about the show this season.

One good thing--Beecher got paroled!! Yay! I was so happy to see that. I hope that doesn't mean he's off the show. And I'm glad he's suspicious about the "evidence" that shows Clarence killed his dad. I hope Beecher learns the truth. Good for him for being skeptical of Vern's overtures--for once I think Vern was being sincere, but it's too damn late. I think Schillinger has done too many awful things to Beecher for anything to be fixed between them.

Poor Keller. I could tell how upset he was when he found out Beecher's father had been killed--I'm sure part of his reaction was concern for himself, but I imagine part was worry for Beecher, too. I wonder how he'll feel about Beecher getting paroled. Last time he was in Massachusetts when Beecher almost got paroled, but now he's back in Oz and has seen Beecher again. I wonder if he'll deal with it well or not.

So glad Timmy Kirk is dead! That photo shoot was ridiculous, but I can't say I'm sorry Jaz Holt took Kirk out.

I can't say I'm really interested in this telemarketing thing, but I guess we'll see where it goes.

Alvarez expecting his girlfriend to wait for him for years on end is typical Alvarez. Guy only thinks of himself.

Schibetta messed with the wrong guy--I'm not surprised at all to see that he ended up dead. I don't know what good he thought going after O'Reily would do him. The eye thing was pretty gross!!

I also watched the deleted scenes from the fifth season. A few favs, other than the one with Beecher and Schibetta that I mentioned earlier:

--loved the convo between Howell and Gloria where Howell tried to befriend Gloria. Howell just does not know how to not be creepy and weird. Gloria was clearly sketched out.

--It was nice to finally find out that Schillinger didn't have Beecher's wife killed; in his own words he was just "taking advantage of [Beecher] in a vulnerable state." Isn't that what Schillinger always does? Schillinger talks a little about his wife and how he adored her. Nice to see a human side to Schillinger.

--Schibetta goes to see Sister Pete and tells her about the only time he saw his father cry (when Ali lost a boxing match). Sister Pete tells him it's okay for men to show emotion and Peter takes a paperweight from her desk and throws it at the window on her door. He's dragged out by the guard.

Overall, I really liked season five. I didn't feel like the quality slipped really, and most of the storylines were pretty good. I'm not loving season six so far, though. It's both grim and outlandish. I hope it gets better!

 

Nope, sorry. If anything, it gets grimmer (and maybe a bit outlandish, but I don't think it's as outlandish as others make it out to be).

 

As far as I remember, the whole Jaz Hoyt/Timmy Kirk/Reverend Clothier thing was as outlandish as the show got (although it didn't end up having any overt supernatural elements to it, contrary to the idea that many people got previously).

 

The Kirk / Cloutier / Timmy thing was really strange... just as the aging pills and the evil eye, I didn't like those stories.

@the 2 new episodes:

What Winthrop did was truly horrible! I couldn't feel sorry for him after that at all! Poor father- I also recognized the actor from Gilmore Girls, but only after wondering for a looong time "where do I know that guy from?!"
It was really awesome of him how he helped Keller despite everything. I didn't like how Toby's lawyer handled him beforehand, I mean it was understandable but she clearly didn't want to help him and didn't deliver his message (the one about the dream ) to Toby on purpose.

"It felt like Ryan was maybe coming around, like perhaps he was going to start praying with the guy. I do think he made an impact on Ryan though."
I agree, but with the next episode my sympathy was gone, he's just the manipulative bastard again. >_>

Timmy Kirk is "pure evil" Was also glad he was offed, the photoshooting was a cool scene, no matter how stupid.

"Kirk might not be the only thing that's possessed--Cyril's puppet was saying things Cyril would never say! That was funny and eerie at the same time." I think Jericho personifies the real Cyril!

"It feels kind of random that Schibetta just now learned that O'Reily was behind his father's death. Doesn't he know better than to take on O'Reily? The guy is dangerous, and I'm not sure what Peter's angle is. Trying to reclaim some of his manhood/pride? I don't know... it feels like a mistake to me."
That was reaaally random. They keep throwing more enemies in for him. When Adebisi was dead upon his return it was the Nazis and now suddeny Ryan. I'm sure he would go against his dad's enemies, but it seems really strange he gets the information right now, years later, from "a very reliable source" that isn't revealed to us....you can tell the writers didn't think it through.

Wow, thanks for describing the scene, sounds really interesting, I don't think Toby and Peter shared any other scene together. I'm sad they took so many good scenes out. Well, it was S05E03 so I think it was before he went against the Aryans...

The telemarketing thing was very boring IMO. The storylines of Bob and Busmalis also got bigger and... *yawn*

Well, Alvarez isn't different from all the other guys who want their girlfriend/fiancée/wife to wait for them!

I was immediately thinking "oh, no..." when Peter went against Ryan, you could tell it wouldn't end good for him, especially since Ryan's a main character etc. and wouldn't get offed right now for sure. But the storyline was IMO one of the stupidest, with Pancamo being so naive etc.


"--Schibetta goes to see Sister Pete and tells her about the only time he saw his father cry (when Ali lost a boxing match). Sister Pete tells him it's okay for men to show emotion and Peter takes a paperweight from her desk and throws it at the window on her door. He's dragged out by the guard."

lol sounds funny, Nino crying because of a lost match. Who's Ali again? He was also mentioned in a fanfic...
I'd love to see him flip and throw the paperweight I just can't decide if I should buy all seasons (since I don't like 6 enough to buy it, but seasons 1-6 will probably be cheaper anyway than just buying 1-5)... it seems the only way to get to watch every deleted scene. =/

I'll have to take my time to reply to the other 2 posts, hopefully soon ^^

 

@Top41's two previous posts (sorry, no quotes and such XD had to prepare the post on another PC without internet, since my keyboard's defect) :

I'm pretty sure some of the COs knew or at least could have guessed what was going on, but it's always so hard to prove something in prison and I don't think they even want to go through the troubles most of the times something happens. We've got a pretty good picture that many of the rapes / murders weren't even investigated.

Yeah, in a twisted way it was being Schillinger's prag that saved Beecher the rest of the time, because he became so tough through it! I'd personally consider not being safe at his own pod the worst.... Just imagine being afraid to fall asleep or just dread everytime there's a lockdown / nightfall.

Adebisi is only a tad bit similar to Adebisi in his gangster past and not even really then. I have to say I really like him as Mr. Eko, though!

You've already seen one of the stupidest deaths IMO and that was Schibetta's! I feel like the writers just searched for any solution to off him and that was pretty much the worst someone could come up with. I read someone commenting that if he'd been an alien and fell in love with a dog, it would've still been a better storyline than the "evil eye" and I agree with that


Yes, I love how Tergesen and Meloni contributed to the pairing. I heard that they really said to each other they should give it their all out, because many tend to shy away from homosexual scenes and they become awkward. So they really did a good and believable job, the chemistry is great!

Keller is really someone who can't show what he feels the normal way. He doesn't want to be weak, so he wouldn't confess that he's jealous... instead he just kills all the ones who ever slept with Beecher!

And as for Keller and Vern's sexual interest... I think part of why it's gone is of Vern's kink about being in control and power. I'm sure there isn't anything between him and the ones he considers more or less equal, like Keller or Robson, that's just what prags or the rape victims are for!

Hmh, you're right about Said and his motives towards Keane and Beecher. I'm sure part of him wants to genuinely help, but it was probably the bigger part rejecting homosexuality. And everyone knows that while Keller is Beecher's big love, he won't do him much good at the same time. Be it the warden or Said, everyone wants Beecher to quit Keller, it seems.

Ah, right! I did like Ja, though, he was practically the only one who pranked Ryan (into believing the stuff he said about the other Asian guy). And he had moves, too! Too bad he was done in like that.

I rewatched the last few scenes between Keller and Schillinger during the end of the series and I definitely think that he didn't really hate Schillinger and if it wasn't for Toby he wouldn't have turned against him. I don't think it means that he particularly liked him either, but Keller is good at picking strong allies, be it Vern or Ryan. Either way, he is one hell of an actor, even in the series, so we can only guess what he truly thought.

@Adebisi choosing pious men as the ones he looked up to: Wow, now that you put it like this, it's really interesting. He was definitely lacking something spiritual, only indulging in fun, be it sexual or drugs.

I remember the scene where Said was held back when he tried to help Beecher in the gym, too. But Keller was there to help him anyway. Toby sure has the right people looking out for him

No, I remember the guy who wanted to kill Redding, had something to do with the drug business, it wasn't Cutler. In one episode, other people gossip why Redding let the guy get away with killing Augustus and trying to kill him without doing anything (and I wonder why he wasn't punished by the COs?!) and I don't remember the name, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't Cutler.

Yeah, I was really naive about Adebisi keeping him tied to the bed naked. I thought that alone would be pretty humiliating, but of course it wouldn't have surprised me if he had raped him.

You have to consider that Beecher probably asked to be transferred to Vern's cell... so it would've been difficult if he wanted out the next day, I guess.

Actually I think Beecher woud definitely be the one who would be better off outside, he is a talented lawyer after all and we don't know what Keller actually worked. He does have street smarts, but I'm not so sure about him keeping a regular job. That's why I especially think the laundromat - housewife idea is really cute.

*lol* The rhyming in Robson's cell... I remember how Robson banged his head against the grate to shut the poor guy up! When I rewatch the series eventually, I'll have to look out if everytime he rhymed he really did feel threatened somehow or did want to prove his insanity.

I think you've got it pretty nailed down with Toby's genuine good heart and being a challenge for Keller, that's probably the biggest reason he is still fascinated by Toby.

Yeah, I'm not surprised Peter was friendless with his tough guy and cocky attitude. I wonder what the others thought about abandoning him, he did have a friend inside the group who said they grew up together (Zanghi was his name, I think). But he was also the one who told him they wouldn't go near the Aryans until Pancamo gives the order. It's the first time I ever saw a member of a Sicilian family (of such status, too) being abandoned by his comrades, but then again it's also a big shame and taboo that he was raped by his enemy, I guess...

The picture with Keller in women's underwear is always awesome

I remember the scene about Keller not wanting to let Beecher fuck him as well. But I thought that in that particular scene it would've been all about submission and he didn't want to submit to Toby to prove that he's sorry.

 

I don't know what it is, but the show is really depressing me this season. I mean, it's never been a happy-go-lucky kind of show... but there's just a gloom over it now. Is it just me, or is that the general perception of season six?

That was pretty outlandish, although the evil eye stuff and the death row photo shoot were definitely WTF moments.

I imagine that was a big deal for Toby's dad, and just shows how much he loved his son. That's one thing I really have noticed over the seasons--Toby comes from a family that really loves and cares for him. A big difference from a lot other inmates, save for the one Latino guy with the big family who came to visit him every week.

I actually sympathized with her a lot. She'd obviously fallen pretty hard for Toby, and I read that as just plain jealousy--but understandable jealousy. I think she took Keller's case with good intentions, but when she realized Toby was going to choose Keller over her--and had, by lying to her to protect Keller--she understandably pulled out of the case and broke up with Toby.

Interesting! I'd love to know what Cyril was like before the accident...

It did feel out of left field, though I think seeing him in the deleted scene with Beecher, it made more sense. Schibetta was obsessed with trying to reestablish himself after the rape--something Beecher never really went through, because unlike Schibetta, he didn't really have anything to reestablish.

It was such a short scene, and I really wish they'd left it in. You could tell they were both kind of reluctant to discuss it, but it felt like Schibetta felt more comfortable talking about what happened with Beecher than anyone else.

I kind of think Pancamo was looking for an excuse to off Schibetta--and maybe just looking for an excuse to be aggressive. He went after Robson, too. He'd been laid up for a while--he must have felt a need to reassert his leadership.

They're referring to the boxer Mohammed Ali, I believe. Not sure if I'm spelling that right, but I guess Nino got upset when he lost a match. The scene was a good one, though Peter's action definitely upset Sister Pete!

I'm glad I did--I like watching the deleted scenes, and I think almost every season has at least one commentary. I haven't listened to all of them--I will probably go back and do so at some point--but they're interesting and enlightening. The season six box set also has the original cast audition tapes, so I'm curious about those! And an extended version of the finale. So it might be worth getting alongside the others just for curiosity's sake. I'll probably re-watch the show at some point, so I'm glad I got the DVDs. I got the whole show for about $100 on Amazon (from one of the sellers--it was almost $200 at the time from Amazon itself). It seems to go on sale a lot, too.

 

Too funny--I think we posted at the same time! BTW, random aside question... why is Beecher in Unit J? Is that semi-protective custody? That flashback in the shower was weird to me, but I guess we're supposed to assume some Aryan tried to rape him or something? Looks like he had grown another crazy beard so I guess he was feeling threatened...

I think the actor who played Beecher did a really good job getting across the character's feelings without being over-the-top about it. You could really see his depression and reluctance in his movements, and then later on after he finally escaped Schillinger, he always flinched when touched unexpectedly.

Yeah, I thought of you when I saw him die! I could tell it was coming--you don't mess with Ryan O'Reily and come out okay, especially when you don't have anyone to look out for you. That sucked, and I felt like they could have done something else with the character, but I feel like he and Robson kind of went off in two different directions in the episode, and that kind of illustrated the choices people without protection had. Peter lashed out and got killed, while Robson realized he needed someone to protect him, even someone monstrous, and submitted to Cutler.

They really are perfect together! And good for them for going for it--it's the actor's job to sell the material, and these two really did.

Keller definitely had a macho attitude when it came to Beecher. I noticed that in all of their interactions--like when he gave Beecher the order but said the words while looking at Said, or when he came back after being shot and pretended he was fine. Lopreste keeps calling Beecher Keller's "girl" and I think Keller kind of thought of him that way, too. Killing the other guys who slept with Beecher is a really macho thing to do, too.

Yeah, definitely. I imagine now that Winthrop is an Aryan, Schillinger will leave him be, too. That's probably why Beecher was so appealing to Schillinger--he was such a victim, and Schillinger clearly got off on finding new ways of tormenting and mistreating him.

Beecher brings out people's protective sides, that's for sure. And Beecher is so good and earnest much of the time, and Keller just seems like such a predator. I mean, he is a serial killer! Toby seems to be the only one relatively safe around him--Keller ever targeted Said at one point, simply because he's Beecher's friend!

Yeah, it really seemed like Keller hated Schillinger mostly for Beecher's sake. If Beecher did represent everything good that he wanted/wanted to be, then I can see why Schillinger's abuse of Beecher would bring out his rage. I remember he said to Beecher at one point--ironically before he and Schillinger broke Beecher's arms and legs--that he "hated what Schillinger did to [Toby]." I kind of thought that might have been sincere, despite when it was said. I think he hated himself for what he did to Toby, too... but self-loathing didn't seem to be anything new for Keller.

I think there was a real emptiness in Adebisi, and that's why he craved the friendship and approval of men like Said and Jara, men who stood for something. I remember how Adebisi embraced his African heritage at one point, and I think that had something to do with his need for some sort of meaning in his life, too.

It's interesting because even though Toby isn't affiliated with any group in Oz, he certainly has a fair amount of people who rush to his rescue when he's in danger. Keller out of love/obsession and Said out of friendship--it's cool to see how different the types of people are that Beecher attracts.

It was some guy named Frankie... I don't really remember him.

I was, too--I wasn't totally sure it was happening, mainly because Adebisi seemed to be teaching Kenny a lesson about who was in charge more than anything else. But I guess rape was probably a part of that.

Beecher was totally stuck--all part of Vern's plan. I have to say, Schillinger played that masterfully!

I know! Beecher is so much better equipped to handle life outside, at least intellectually. But Keller would want to take care of him, so it makes sense that Keller would be the one to work while Beecher stayed home. I actually think they'd be decently happy if things worked out that way--it would do Keller's self-esteem good to be able to take care of Beecher, and Beecher could stay home with his kids and that would make him happy. Man, what a unique family that would be!

I don't remember every instance, but I do think most of them happened when he felt like someone was going to hurt him or sexually assault him (like Robson or Keller). He might have done it a bit in his cell with Augustus, too. I think it was an escape, too, in addition to being a defensive mechanism.

As unique as they are, there's definitely an archetypal/classic angle to their story, too. It's really Beauty and the Beast in prison.

I think it was that Schibetta didn't earn his stripes. He was a leader because his father was, and that probably wasn't enough for some people. And he simply wasn't tough enough, I guess.

I don't think Toby was serious, either--I doubt he would have done anything remotely sexual with Keller at that point. But I definitely did get the, "Uh, that's not the way it's going to work with us" vibe from Keller. It translated to me as, "Sure, I'll let you break my legs, arms, whatever, but when we have sex, I'm going to be the one on top." So many people refer to Toby as Keller's "girl"... I kind of think Keller felt that way, too, though he wouldn't have come right out and said it, because he knew he wouldn't get laid if he did! I mean, look how badly Toby reacted when Keller called him a bitch... though I think Keller was looking to make him mad then.

I could seriously talk about this show all day...

 

It really looks like we were writing at the same time

The show was always very dark and shocking, but in a good, thrilling way. In season 6, it's just... more gloomy and depressing IMO and by far not as interesting as before.

I felt sorry for the Latino guy with his family =( With each visit, there was one person less coming to him and in the end it was only his sister whose note got thrown into the bin by the CO -_- He only went to go against Alvarez (?) on Christmas because he was disappointed no one came to visit him.

Yes, the intentions of Toby's lawyer were really understandable, but since I was rooting for K / B, I didn't sympathize that much with her. xD

There is a scene of Cyril in the hospital where his real side talks... I thought it'd be before season 6, have you seen it yet? And the things Jericho says really sound like it would be coming from someone like criminal!Cyril

It's interesting how that's the thing that actually made everything after the rape easier for Beecher than for Schibetta, not having someone before his whole torture. Beecher couldn't care less what the other inmates were thinking about him and became the respect after he proved himself, Schibetta had the respect beforehand and lost it all. I always thought there were parallels between them two, both being victims, but from different standings and with people or no people to rely on, so the deleted scene sounds really interesting.

Pancamo went after Robson because he had shanked him and was now weak without protection, guess everyone would want to use the opportunity. With Peter, I really feel it's kinda harsh to kill him just because he's annoyed he SUPPOSEDLY wants to curse him, maybe he really did use it as an excuse though. I could imagine him being fed up by Schibetta (having to look out for the loony etc), so maybe that was it.

100$ for all seasons sounds pretty cheap to me! :3 I'll have to look out.

Beecher was in unit J because his parole was coming up and everyone knew the Aryans would try to stop him from being paroled... Robson even almost stabbed that CO who was standing guard at Beecher's cell to kill him, didn't he? So I guess he was transferred there afterwards.

" Yeah, I thought of you when I saw him die! I could tell it was coming--you don't mess with Ryan O'Reily and come out okay, especially when you don't have anyone to look out for you."
Haha, I'm flattered XD Comparing Robson and Schibetta is also interesting, Robson's survival instincts were just stronger than his pride I guess, while it was the other way around with Peter; I doubt that he would've accepted becoming someone's prag to survive. I wonder how it would've been if Nino had still been around. He would've looked out for sure, but maybe felt ashamed upon the rape, too? He did always take good care of Dino...

Maybe Keller really sees Toby as something good, because even though he could be considered weak and of course gay (which was obviously a part of Keller himself he used to hate), he learned to cope with it all!

I was glad the "others" seemed to get along and make it without real aggravation from the other groups, Augustus and the others weren't really targets either. Beecher was also a top example of being some random guy (he more than anyone) who didn't fit in prison but still survived, partly because he changed and partly because of the help of others.

Somehow, I never saw anything between Adebisi and Kenny, not even the power kink-like-relationships you see with Vern etc. So even though he was tied to the bed I still wasn't sure if something happened at all XD I liked Adebisi during the time he seemed to be good (it was all an act, but well... we didn't know that for sure then) and following his African heritage!

Yeah, I remember when Peter came to Oz and nobody seemed to truly respect him, Adebisi said something like "This isn't Nino, this one's got no balls" or something. That was definitely one of the biggest problems. But it's ironic to think about how Ryan actually offered to help him out back then... though Schibetta knew that Ryan was a sly rat who was trying to leave the ship.

Me too! I had to imagine how we'd talk hours about Oz if we ever met It really looks like we were writing at the same time

The show was always very dark and shocking, but in a good, thrilling way. In season 6, it's just... more gloomy and depressing IMO and by far not as interesting as before.

I felt sorry for the Latino guy with his family =( With each visit, there was one person less coming to him and in the end it was only his sister whose note got thrown into the bin by the CO -_- He only went to go against Alvarez (?) on Christmas because he was disappointed no one came to visit him.

Yes, the intentions of Toby's lawyer were really understandable, but since I was rooting for K / B, I didn't sympathize that much with her. xD

There is a scene of Cyril in the hospital where his real side talks... I thought it'd be before season 6, have you seen it yet? And the things Jericho says really sound like it would be coming from someone like criminal!Cyril

It's interesting how that's the thing that actually made everything after the rape easier for Beecher than for Schibetta, not having someone before his whole torture. Beecher couldn't care less what the other inmates were thinking about him and became the respect after he proved himself, Schibetta had the respect beforehand and lost it all. I always thought there were parallels between them two, both being victims, but from different standings and with people or no people to rely on, so the deleted scene sounds really interesting.

Pancamo went after Robson because he had shanked him and was now weak without protection, guess everyone would want to use the opportunity. With Peter, I really feel it's kinda harsh to kill him just because he's annoyed he SUPPOSEDLY wants to curse him, maybe he really did use it as an excuse though. I could imagine him being fed up by Schibetta (having to look out for the loony etc), so maybe that was it.

100$ for all seasons sounds pretty cheap to me! :3 I'll have to look out.

Beecher was in unit J because his parole was coming up and everyone knew the Aryans would try to stop him from being paroled... Robson even almost stabbed that CO who was standing guard at Beecher's cell to kill him, didn't he? So I guess he was transferred there afterwards.

Oh, I'm flattered I guess XD Comparing Robson and Schibetta is also interesting, Robson's survival instincts were just stronger than his pride I guess, while it was the other way around with Peter; I doubt that he would've accepted becoming someone's prag to survive. I wonder how it would've been if Nino had still been around. He would've looked out for sure, but maybe felt ashamed upon the rape, too? He did always take good care of Dino...

Maybe Keller really sees Toby as something good, because even though he could be considered weak and of course gay (which was obviously a part of Keller himself he used to hate), he learned to cope with it all!

I was glad the "others" seemed to get along and make it without real aggravation from the other groups, Augustus and the others weren't really targets either. Beecher was also a top example of being some random guy (he more than anyone) who didn't fit in prison but still survived, partly because he changed and partly because of the help of others.

Somehow, I never saw anything between Adebisi and Kenny, not even the power kink-like-relationships you see with Vern etc. So even though he was tied to the bed I still wasn't sure if something happened at all XD I liked Adebisi during the time he seemed to be good (it was all an act, but well... we didn't know that for sure then) and following his African heritage!

Yeah, I remember when Peter came to Oz and nobody seemed to truly respect him, Adebisi said something like "This isn't Nino, this one's got no balls" or something. That was definitely one of the biggest problems. But it's ironic to think about how Ryan actually offered to help him out back then... though Schibetta knew that Ryan was a sly rat who was trying to leave the ship.

"I could seriously talk about this show all day... "

Me too! I had to imagine how we'd talk hours about Oz if we ever met

 

I'm still excited to see each episode, but yeah... there's something different. Just kind of depressing. I'm excited about Beecher getting paroled, though! I hope that doesn't mean he's off the show... but I do want a happy ending for him. And yes, I know this is Oz... I probably won't get my wish.

Yeah, his story was sad! He kind of annoyed me when he whined about it endlessly rather than appreciating the people who did come to see him, but I felt bad for him.

Haha, true, and poor woman, I think she knew she stood no chance. It actually surprised me that a high powered lawyer would go for a guy in jail, even if he was an intelligent fellow lawyer... but I think it was just a testament to how appealing/endearing Beecher is.

I don't remember that--there was the flashback where you saw him get hurt, but I don't think I remember anything else.

Good point--Beecher had nowhere to go but up. Everyone looked at him as Schillinger's prag, so when he struck back, everyone was impressed. Whereas Schibetta was the leader of the Italians until getting raped by Adebisi undermined him. The deleted scene was really cool, and I wish there'd been more conversation between the two.

That, and I think Pancamo was pretty superstitious. The whole thing felt kind of far-fetched, though, and I'm surprised Pancamo didn't realize he was being played by Ryan.

I think the thing with Robson happened when he was up for parole the first time. This time they showed some random flashback to Beecher naked and getting attacked in the shower. Luckily the guards actually intervened that time.

I imagine it would have been different for him if his father had been around, but then, Peter wouldn't have been a leader and might not have even been a target for Adebisi. But I agree that Peter probably wouldn't have willingly become someone's prag, though I wonder if he'd found someone the way Beecher found Keller if he would have gone for that. Probably not, since like DevilEyes said above, it was culturally unacceptable for Peter to be in a gay relationship.

I think Keller definitely sees some strength in Toby--it's not like he looks at Toby as his prag. But I think Keller loves having someone to protect and look out for and care for--that makes him feel good about himself. And seeing that Toby loves him, that also seems to make him really happy.

Definitely, though it seemed like Beecher was regularly the target of sexual assaults. Schillinger in season one, then Robson... even Brown in season four would have probably been a rape if Beecher hadn't consented as a kind of "fuck you" to Keller.

Glad I'm not the only one! I mean, I assumed it was happening... but it just didn't seem like it in a way. And I liked Adebisi even when he was being bad... but I enjoyed the times when he tried to be better.

There were only a few people Ryan didn't double-deal with. The IRA guy, the priest, Cyril of course, Beecher and Keller... I think Keller was just too scary to double-cross. Plus their interests coincided.... But I do wonder if it would have been different if Schibetta and Ryan had teamed up. Certainly it might have down the road.

I know, lol! We'd probably have an Oz marathon.

 

I have to admit I skipped some parts in the very last episodes! After the second major stupid death in my eyes (which is soon to come XD) there were many boring storylines and I only kept watching for the B - K - Schillinger Drama (and to see the end), I guess! With the other episodes, I was always so excited to see them... season 6 is definitely depressing / frustrating
I understand you too well, I was feeling exactly the same (rooting for Beecher to be happy / free, but still in the show) xD

I think his name was Carlo Ricardo, the one Miguel shanked in self-defense and claimed to be the one who raped Leo's daughter? Yeah, at least his sister was still there for him, but he didn't know that and must've thought everyone had abandoned him =( One more time I hated the COs XD

OK, then it's still to come! ^^

Yeah, that would've been interesting, I always love seeing different inmates interact with each other in general... F.e. Said and Beecher: They hadn't spoken with each other in season 1... and Ryan - Toby pretty much ceased to exist after season 1! Or Keller / Ryan, Adebisi / Said, pretty much everything but the "normal" stuff!
I sometimes think "Why couldn't my favorite character be one of the main cast?" since poor Peter turned out to be a minor character, more or less (he had a few episodes with more appearances, but that was it). That's the good / bad thing about the show, except for the main cast you never know what happens to them, if they suddenly get killed or just written out of the story etc!

Yeah he was in season 6, but he said that he didn't believe in curses in season 3... (though I read someone's thought that Pancamo may have been influenced by the fact that he almost died from a harmless stab wound, feeling that might've been Petey's fault, too. It would make sense, though I'm pretty sure the writers hadn't even thought of that)
There are many inconsequent things about the show, f.e. the daughter of Shirley was once to be said 4 years old, later it was 8 years. The name of Vern's wife changed. In the pilot, Ryan gives one CO his brother's regards all business-like, even though Cyril turned out to be already brain damaged at that point, etc...

Ohhh right, and it didn't even happen, it was part of the dream sequence when he didn't get paroled in reality.
I'm always confused when actual flashbacks get mixed up with some scenes we hadn't seen before, like this one... there was also one with Cutler pissing on Robson's shoes and I didn't remember that ever happening, too XD

Hmh, that's right... the whole "what if's" are really fun to think about. It could've still happened when Peter went to ask for the toaster and lost his temper with the Aryans, though. (Or maybe he would have Sicilians accompanying him?)
That's a good question! It's hard to say, I mean Keller really adjusted everything so Beecher would fall for him; consulting him, teaching him how to wrestle, just being there for him... I could imagine Peter falling for it were someone to do the same thing with him (especially he, like Beecher, had no one), there's probably only a handful of really headstrong / homophobic inmates who wouldn't. Beecher and Peter were both more the sensitive types and I'm sure Beecher wouldn't have dreamt about falling for a guy, either. Outside, he would've stayed faithful to his wife his whole life, I think. Also, I think it would have been a question of decisiveness, tolerance and such. Many inmates probably "turn" gay / to a male partner because it's the only choice (and then there's the theory about human being bisexual at birth...).

Yes, I think Keller really needed it for himself, too, with his whole self-loathing going on it must've been so nice to know he had someone he could help / who needed and depended on him.
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I think I'll like Adebisi and also Vern much more with a rewatch, but they both really shocked me / put me off in the beginning (as did Ryan)!

I would've hated Ryan if it wasn't for Cyril and how he cared about him! Though it was his fault Cyril was thrown into prison after all...
Ryan caused the deaths of many inmates I liked; Peter, Keane, Dino, Nino...

It's really relieving to have our Oz discussion marathon online!

 

Yeah, I'll be honest--the Beecher/Keller/Schillinger drama is definitely my favorite storyline. Certainly right now, and probably overall. I also want to find out what's going to happen with Cyril, but I'm frustrated with Ryan for his willingness to just let Cyril die.

Yes, that was the guy! I remember thinking he really didn't seem like a rapist when Miguel told Glynn that he was the guy... and of course, he wasn't the guy. That was another instance where I hated Alvarez--he really seemed to just be taunting Glynn.

Said actually tried to reach out to Beecher during season one, when Beecher was doing drugs, but Beecher was pretty bitchy to him. I think that that point Beecher was pissed at anyone who he felt looked the other way when Schillinger was raping him.

I think it's kind of a bummer that Ryan and Beecher's friendship didn't continue past the first season. Ryan was involved in the Andy Schillinger plot, but after that he really seemed closer to Keller. Which I thought was an interesting friendship, but I missed the dynamic between him and Beecher, too.

Yeah, Peter wasn't in that many episodes! Mostly just in seasons two, five and then the beginning of six. I think they could have done an interesting storyline with him if they'd explored the rape issue more. I really did like that one scene with Beecher, and thought it showed how different their positions were in prison, and how the rapes affected them differently.

That makes sense, about Pancamo associating his stab wound infection with Peter putting a curse on him. Even if he wasn't superstitious back in season three, after being laid up in the hospital for months and then hearing that Peter had put a curse on him... maybe he thought that made sense. I did get a real sense of anger from him in that episode.

Most shows have continuity problems if they run long enough, I think--I didn't notice those, though! The only thing that stuck out to me was the weirdness about Beecher's kids... it seemed like sometimes they weren't sure if he had two or three. But I guess it's definitely three--they mentioned the youngest being with his wife's parents in the first episode of season six.

True--Keller really "romanced" Beecher more or less, and that was what got him to fall for Keller. Beecher was in a very vulnerable place and that was what made him fall for Keller as much as Keller himself, so I could see a parallel with Peter if someone behaved similarly with him. I do think Peter and Adebisi could have made an interesting odd pairing!

I think what Keller didn't expect was how much he liked who he was in Beecher's eyes. Beecher saying stuff to him like, "I hate when you're self-deprecating... it's so cute" and observing how much he hated doing laundry... little intimacies that Keller probably hadn't shared with anyone else. Unconditional love, but also feeling needed. It's so hard to unravel the manipulations from what was genuine in season two, but I do think he liked playing the hero for Beecher, maybe more than he thought he would.

Vern is the guy you love to hate. He's so evil, and really vicious, and then he has these moments of decency. If I had to pick a #1 overriding villain for the show, it would probably be Schillinger. Adebisi could be pretty wicked, too, but there was something I loved about him--maybe it was his hedonistic attitude towards life. Adebisi was so alive.

Ryan's feelings for Cyril and Gloria are really what humanizes him--otherwise he'd just be a one-note villain. But he's much more than that. He did cause a lot of people's deaths, though!

I know--I'm so loving this discussion! I didn't have time to watch another episode last night, unfortunately. Maybe tonight, but I have a big work deadline this week, boo. I can't believe I only have six more episodes to go! I know I'm going to want to go back and watch the whole thing over again when I'm done. I just want more Oz.

 

Yeah, it was really one of the best stories overall. I'm usually also quite interested in the Cyril and Ryan storyline, but I think it lost it's touch during season 6, because like you said... it's strange Ryan suddenly decides to let him die and there's one other thing that's bothering me, but I guess we'll discuss it later after you've watched it ^^

I actually thought what he did was pretty clever and not meant to taunt Glynn at all. This way, Glynn wouldn't be set out to seek revenge on somebody and Miguel protected the one who was actually responsible... they weren't even friends AFAIR, but I guess it belongs to the whole prison mentality "don't ever give out names"...

Oh, I didn't remember that... I generally never liked it when some interesting character interactions suddenly just ceased to be. As for Ryan and Keller, I think I liked their dynamic even more than Ryan / Toby It was "cute" of Ryan to supply Toby with drugs - especially if you consider how cold-hearted Ryan usually is - , but Ryan and Keller were like... one wavelength, playing pretty much in the same league.

Yeah, me too =( I wonder how those decisions are influenced, like giving Robson major screentime during season 5 / 6 with his own storyline and cutting Peter out, hmmh. I heard that the actors influence Tom Fontana a lot, too.

Yes, that would at least make sense. It was never laid out like this in the series, so I don't think they actually put much thought in it, though.

Yeah, I was also confused about his children he definitely has three, one of them was still a toddler I think (also a boy), but sometimes it almost seemed like he only had two.

Peter and Adebisi would be a reaaally odd, but interesting pairing! XD I began watching Law & Order SVU and I definitely think a big part of Keller's charm is Chris Meloni now. (Also, it's funny to see Dean Winters play a good newbie detective! And I'm excited to see JK Simmons and BD Wong, though I personally think the actors are the main reason to watch the show, at least so far... °_°

I remember that line from Beecher and loved it. Keller really IS cute when small things like his self-deprecating side shine through, he's not so perfect after all (I mean, he has maaajor problems in fact, but that's definitely not what you see on first glance... or for a long time). He hates doing laundry? Aww... now I have to think of their first kiss, it's one of my favorite Keller scenes too, where he jumps up and down and yells at the COs "Fuck yoooou", he reminds me of a child when he does that. XD

He really is! I'll never be able to see JK Simmons the same way again. xD The show definitely depicted Vern and the Aryans in general as really bad. Random story: I stumbled across this board discussion about Oz... the site is called something like "stormtrooper" and seems to be pretty... erm... national socialistic and the users really hate Oz because all the Aryans are depicted as bad guys. o_O

Yeah, but he only became more than that starting with his cancer and story with Gloria and Cyril which all began in season 2, I think. I wonder how much the actor actually contributed, I mean I could imagine sticking up for his real life brother so he could play Cyril and stuff... like making Ryan more likeable through the stories. I read that he was f.e. the one who initiated the sex dream sequence with Gloria, he wanted to shoot it

Yeah, I also felt the urge to rewatch Oz after finishing, but I've only rewatched some scenes and the first episode so far!

I'm actually getting addicted to these discussions I think, I feel like something's missing when I can't read / post for a while After finshing Oz, I actually had at least two dreams about it! In the first one, I sat with Schillinger and a RL friend at a table and we talked about random stuff and laughed (how creepy is that now that I think about it? ) and in the second one it was revealed that Keller actually had Nazi tattoos! Really strange stuff... xD

(Lol, I actually feel like I've written too less... maybe it's also because I've got plenty of time right now.... but compared to our usual novel-length posts, this is really nothing! XD)