Any OZ fans here?

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Yeah, Jason Kramer was that guy's name, I think! He was pretty cavalier about getting off and promised Said he'd "try" not to kill anyone else or something like that. I liked that guy, and really liked Richie and felt bad for him.

I wonder a bit why the guys who dress in drag are never featured though--I always see them in the background and wonder about their experience in prison.

Right, I liked him too! He was also the one who beat Miguel in the ring (though Miguel's water was spiked... another illogical thing; why would the bottles be filled already the night before the fight...? And then labeled clearly with their names so Ryan couldn't get he wrong one ) Just felt bad that Richie who was innocent got killed while the guilty one was set free.

Good question, but I think that would've been one bit too much maybe? Even though rape and sex is heavily implied you hardly see anything on screen and I guess it would've been inevitable with the drag queens.

I think it really does happen in prison, so I imagine the prisoners find a way. And obviously Beecher and Keller found a way to sleep together, too, which is a good thing.

Yes, I'm sure it does happen a lot, but Em City is special because the prisoners are supervised 24/7 and there's no privacy since the walls are transparent. I think despite the "no fucking" rule the guards don't even bother to stop it sometimes, but I wonder why they don't put an end to it when it's clearly non-con like it must've been with Schillinger and Beecher.

Yeah, I always forget the show is over 10 years old. I guess DNA testing wasn't as common... and they probably wouldn't bother with prisoners.

He did, and that's good... but that suggests that if Mukada hadn't talked to him and told him Beecher was just trying to do good, Vern would have had Beecher's daughter killed, too. That's just messed up.

Yeah, the second reason was the crucial, I guess

Hadn't thought about that, that'd be really messed up. o,o I remember reading something about how awesome it was that a liberate Asian priest could talk a Nazi out of it, I hadn't thought of that either

I liked Moses, too! I loved when he punched through the wall and killed Miles, who was a real jerk. He died right before the death sentences got suspended, too--though I think it still would have been too late for him. But his story was really interesting.

I loved that too, even if he hadn't killed him, his portrait would've been destroyed I felt sad about how Moses used Said and that organ donation thing to try and escape... he even met the man who was so thankful to get his eyes and everything...

Hahahaha, Beecher was a crazy bitch then! Poor Beecher--I still think it was more of a defense mechanism than anything else, but I can see why Augustus would be uneasy.

Rebadow turning mini-serial killer was one of those stories that shocked me! I can't believe he tried to kill Busmalis.

True, though what I thought was cute was how Chris pretty much saw right through it.

Now that I think of it... funny how Beecher's defense mode was acting up with people who wouldn't hurt him anyway (though it took Keller a while to get there...!)

Yes, that was awful of Rebadow, I actually felt bad for Hernandez, his death scene seemed long and horrible. And then even trying to kill Busmalis! I like them better when they're "normal" and funny.

He crushed them in the hole in episode seven of the first season, I think. It's really funny--in the commentary on the first episode Tom Fontana was wondering what happened to the glasses and asked Lee Tergesen, "Did your sight miraculously improve when you started taking it up the ass from Keller?" That cracked me up big time.

*rooofl* That IS a great question indeed! I knew he crushed them, but it seemed strange he miraculously didn't need to replace them afterwards.

I wonder who was the more dominant between them two anyway! I mean, usually it was Keller, but I can totally imagine how he'd get a kick out of being the submissive one xD

Oh, and when I rewatched the beginning I noticed McManus had glassess too sometimes! What happened to those? Was it also Keller...?

Oh, interesting--who is in that group? I definitely think Sister Pete should have had Peter talk to Beecher. Beecher's a guy, but he's also compassionate and sweet. I think he would have been the perfect person.

Robson is in the group because he becomes Cutler's prag for protection. So I think that would have been a reaaally interesting confrontation between Peter and him, especially since Peter refused to give out names, so Sister Pete doesn't know. And Robson actually stopped being an asshole... a bit... more or less, I guess. (or maybe it's more like.. he becomes the victim himself)

Oh, seriously, no worries... the show has been off the air for ten years, and it's hard to keep track of what happened in when, especially when you watch it all close together. I don't mind spoilers at all--I don't mind knowing what's coming--the fun is in seeing it happen.



Oh yeah, totally. I do think that's true to life. How brutal rapists and murderers get paroled in a few years while drug offenders end up sitting in jail for years is beyond me.

Oh okay, because I personally hate spoilers, but you're right, with Oz the "how" is more interesting, a lot of people die etc.

Right? oO I just can't seem to grasp many verdicts... everything seems so corrupt.

I just remember the scene in the second ep of season four where Beecher is sitting in Keller's bed, hugging Keller's pillow and asking Mukada if he's ever loved someone too much.

I'm not really a Twilight fan, but there are definite parallels. Bella moons over Edward and gets saved by him over and over, while Edward broods and stalks her. Kind of Beecher and Keller!

Haha, I remember Mukada's denial at least. Do you watch Glee? There was one student who asked the female psychologist exactly the same question and she was all like "Nope." and one second later you see her sitting lovesick in her car crying to the song "Aaaaall byyyy myyyself"

I don't like Twilight nor do I know it well, but can tell that your comparison isn't far off! Both pairs have these obsessive-stalkerish-"I can't live without you" vibes. Guess that speaks once again for how fucked up the Edward/Bella romance is XD

I admit, that was kind of hot. The way he looks at Beecher totally gives me chills. It's like there's nothing else for him.

Hahaha, I remember the ass scene, yeah. That was funny! And the staring cracks me up. So serious!

I liked how Keller was probably constantly creepy ( a steady kind of creepy ) because he's dangerous and everyone knows it. Beecher on the other hand was creepy sometimes (bigtime creepy then though!) because he was so unpredictable! At least that's how it was for me.

I know, the staring is so involuntarily funny! I couldn't help but grin at how Adebisi and Peter stare each other off and then the camera goes to Miguel and he watches both of them (and even cheers them on)! And all while they're naked except for their shorts... also, the light perfectly illuminates them even though it's in the night and they should be switched off xD

I loved that scene, and the one that came after. Keller was playing the tough guy for Beecher, to reassure Beecher that he was okay. I thought that was sweet. But then that night he was sitting and smoking and Toby got out of his bed and went to him and Keller talked about how he died. It was sweet, both the way he tried to act tough and then the way he let Beecher comfort him later.

Keller really did have his moments as a good boyfriend, though his sociopathic tendencies overweigh, I guess. But what was it again, "Love is never bad" or something?
Ohh, right, I loved that. One of the very few scenes where Chris was showing some weakness. I also love how Beecher was practically his weakpoint, similar to how Cyril was Ryan's.

I think that showed that when it came down to it, Beecher really did love Keller and didn't want anything to happen to him even if they weren't together. It was sweet. One of the things that really struck me was the way Beecher made peace with the fact that Keller was basically still killing people in Oz... anyone who touched Beecher. There's a deleted scene in season four where Keller moves back into Beecher's pod and Beecher tells Keller he got questioned about Ronnie's death and that he said he didn't know anything. You know Beecher knows Keller killed Ronnie, but he just seems... so okay with it.

Yes, despite all their bitchfights they did still support each other. I mean, Keller also believed him (it was a suspicious situation with the jealousy after all), that probably meant a lot... also considering that Ronnie and also Vern were once his friends.
You're right, it's kinda cute and funny how Toby lets Chris get away with those murders because he knows that's just his very own way of showing love and jealously. Maybe he felt flattered? During the series finale there's also another extreme measure Keller takes that kills a few people and in the last scene you can see Toby smiling about it, that was awesome (a small awesome part in the overall bad ending IMO )

Awww, I know! It was so sad to see Peter such a mess. I did love that Adebisi saved him from the crazy guy and washed his face. Very sweet!

As tvtropes put it: Beecher and Peter are kinda the "woobies" and "butt monkeys", I guess. I mean how could one *not* feel bad for them? Those people are cold-hearted, I tell ya!

By season four it's a bit unrealistic. But I think most of the time he didn't get caught, and for the rest of it, he's just so charming that it works. He seems sincere--even when he's totally not being sincere at all!

I have to admit I'm pretty sure I'd also fall for his tricks if I were an inmate. xD Not everyone knows his history of treachery, either. But there was particularly one scene in season 6 which was so over the top and stupid IMO. In that scene, he convinces Pancamo to go against Schibetta even though in the same scene it is indicated that Pancamo doesn't trust Ryan (he accuses him of doubletalking). Apparently, Chucky also thinks Peter is a loony and although he said in season 3 that he doesn't believe in curses, he's all pissed off because according to Ryan Peter will put a curse on him... lots of contradictions there. And I don't even need to get started again on about how strange the wiseguys behave, not supporting the son of their boss etc (and I don't mean as a leader, but just help him cope and f.e. get even with the Aryans), especially because it is revealed that Ryan killed Nino.

I wonder, too. I think Said was on the edge, but I think part of it was that it was Toby. Said was always really protective of Toby, and concerned about him, even back in the first season when Toby was pushing him away and rejecting his advice. I think seeing Vern and Robson preying on Toby once again after all they'd done to Toby and right Toby had lost his parole hearing just got to Said. He let the Adebisi in him out!

Haha, I'll never get over the whole "ADEBISI LIVES!" thing, so unintentionally hilarious Hmh, yeah, Said was even part of those counseling sessions, he knew and felt with Toby. BTW, I really loved those counseling scenes, was always looking forward to them!

I tend to think better, actually. I think Adebisi would have raped Toby for sure, but that probably would have been it. Schillinger didn't just rape Toby--he was so psychologically abusive. I don't think Adebisi would have cared if Toby wanted to help Keane out with his law knowledge. I don't think he would have threatened Toby's family or made Toby dress in drag. He would have probably just wanted to have sex with him. What do you think?

I thought so, too. Adebisi wouldn't have burned a swastika into his ass, ripped up the photos, made him eat paper, let him beg for fucking his wife, dressed him as a prag etc... or would he? (And he would've shared drugs! <- is that a good point?) I'm not so sure about some of it, he did seem to think he owned Toby's stuff at least! Can't imagine anyone being much worse than Vern though. Given that Adebisi and Keane were um... friends / homeboys / pals? I guess he would've supported Toby's attempts to save him... but then again, it depends on if he wanted to be leader more than he wanted Keane alive? Nevertheless, Keane wanted to die and end the war anyway, but I thought it sweet of Toby to try and save him. Really hated the COs during that part of the story. ;C

Yeah, I mostly just wondered about the one scene where Toby came back after the gay guy dressed him up and put make up on him and Vern was in his pod with several other Aryans. But maybe he sent them away before raping poor Toby.

Oh god, that was one of the scenes where I had to laugh because of the Aryans... Another one was when they are playing on the pool table after that certain scene and Vern says "Pool table's working fine now!" I always feel bad about it though. xD I found it hilarious when Toby came in, dressed up, and Vern's all serious: "My god, you're even more beautiful than I thought", then cracks up laughing with the others. I mean, they are sick fucks, but sometimes Vern's comments and behavior's just too funny. (The "disgusting as a person in RL, but interesting as a character on a TV Show" dilemma again). I'd like to think he sent them away, to be honest I can't really picture it otherwise, Toby was kinda his personal prag, he even "branded him himself" :P

Yeah, I looked up the actor, Eddie Malavarca, on IMDb and it looks like he hasn't done much since Oz! Kind of surprising--I thought he was a decent actor and definitely cute.

The Jeopardy thing sounds funny! Cool to hear Meloni is smart... that's hot. Seeing him on this has definitely made me want to watch SVU.

Hehe, I've already looked him up as well and searched, but yeah... hardly anything about him. The only thing I found to watch was the episode of Law & Order he was in (1995), get this: His role is really sympathetic, an alcoholic who was abused as a child and then commits murder in the 2nd degree and is convicted for 25 years! Him and his poor characters... Some of his few other movies look interesting according to the trailers/summaries, but they're nowhere to be found, not on amazon, ebay,...
I was surprised, too! He's handsome and talented enough IMO. Most people from Oz are more popular by now, too bad the actor of my favorite isn't!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhqIuKDJRJQ Here's Chris on jeopardy. Just looove the clip! He totally owns the others! And he's always swaying around... xDD

Likewise! I'm having so much fun delving into the details with you.

I've read a few, but mostly the Beecher/Keller ones, and a few Beecher/Schillinger ones. There's a big archive called Unit B where you can actually search for pairings. I looked and couldn't find Schibetta's name in the list, but maybe there are some stories about him under "other." I was kind of surprised by some of the other big pairings--Ryan/Alvarez and McManus/Murphy seem to have big followings. There's also Mukada/Alvarez, but Mukada was so determined not to give up on Alvarez that I wouldn't be surprised if he had a crush.

We're like addicts, seriously XD

Ah, I know unit B, there was exactly one story with Peter (and Adebisi) in there called Angel! I was surprised too, there are so many Ryan/Alvarez fics! I never saw anything between those two, did you? I only recall 2 scenes with them together, first when Miguel steals Gloria's stethoscope and when Ryan talks to him before his boxing match.

I have to say... I hate McManus in pairings XD

Mukada/Alvarez is easier to see, right. I never actually thought Mukada had a crush, but it's a cute thought. Too bad they don't get screentime together during the later seasons =( I saw this great video about them that I loved and thought I had to show you, maybe you'll like him more? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLMLRY5K0iw This catches it pretty well IMO, how Miguel is always lost / (self)destructive and all, I like him in this vid. XD

 

[Top41]

Right, I liked him too! He was also the one who beat Miguel in the ring (though Miguel's water was spiked... another illogical thing; why would the bottles be filled already the night before the fight...? And then labeled clearly with their names so Ryan couldn't get he wrong one ) Just felt bad that Richie who was innocent got killed while the guilty one was set free.

Good question, but I think that would've been one bit too much maybe? Even though rape and sex is heavily implied you hardly see anything on screen and I guess it would've been inevitable with the drag queens.

I wonder if that actually happened to them, though. They kind of seemed like their own unit, and you never really saw other prisoners going after them. I wonder if they looked out for each other or if other prisoners did go after them. Vern got one to "beautify" Toby, which I wouldn't think he'd have been able to do if he wasn't at least on neutral terms with them. But who knows... that's one thing I wish we knew more about.

Yes, I'm sure it does happen a lot, but Em City is special because the prisoners are supervised 24/7 and there's no privacy since the walls are transparent. I think despite the "no fucking" rule the guards don't even bother to stop it sometimes, but I wonder why they don't put an end to it when it's clearly non-con like it must've been with Schillinger and Beecher.

I wonder how much Beecher fought--the first time (when he was getting his ass branded), he was tied up with Schillinger's belt, and then the second time we saw something happening, Beecher willingly stripped for Schillinger. Not willingly, but I don't get the sense that he fought back... I think he kind of took it. It was obviously rape, but it didn't look like he was screaming or fighting, so maybe the COs felt comfortable looking the other way. So many of them were Aryans anyway, especially in the early seasons.

I loved that too, even if he hadn't killed him, his portrait would've been destroyed I felt sad about how Moses used Said and that organ donation thing to try and escape... he even met the man who was so thankful to get his eyes and everything...

I felt so bad for that guy who was supposed to get his eyes! At the same time, how horrible/chilling must that have been for Moses, hearing about how his body parts would be used once he was dead.

Now that I think of it... funny how Beecher's defense mode was acting up with people who wouldn't hurt him anyway (though it took Keller a while to get there...!)

LOL, true... though Keller did eventually hurt him. But he really had to work to get past Beecher's defenses, both before and after he hurt Beecher.

Yes, that was awful of Rebadow, I actually felt bad for Hernandez, his death scene seemed long and horrible. And then even trying to kill Busmalis! I like them better when they're "normal" and funny.

I know! I felt bad for Hernandez, too. So funny that of all people, Rebadow took him down.

*rooofl* That IS a great question indeed! I knew he crushed them, but it seemed strange he miraculously didn't need to replace them afterwards.

I know, that was so funny. The guy who played Beecher said he squinted after that, but I've never noticed it. Guess Keller's penis must have really been magic.

I wonder who was the more dominant between them two anyway! I mean, usually it was Keller, but I can totally imagine how he'd get a kick out of being the submissive one xD

With Beecher and Keller, I always thought Keller was the one on top. I mean, he looked at Beecher as his property, and as someone he needed to protect. And it seemed like Beecher was always on the bottom in his relationships. I'm not sure I can see Keller on the bottom really (definitely not with Beecher), but I guess presumably he was with Vern when he was younger. On the show, though, he didn't strike me as one to switch it up--I think part of his thing was that he liked to dominate. Certainly when it came to Beecher at least.

Oh, and when I rewatched the beginning I noticed McManus had glassess too sometimes! What happened to those? Was it also Keller...?

LOL, Keller gets around , but McManus is slutty with women, not men.

Robson is in the group because he becomes Cutler's prag for protection. So I think that would have been a reaaally interesting confrontation between Peter and him, especially since Peter refused to give out names, so Sister Pete doesn't know. And Robson actually stopped being an asshole... a bit... more or less, I guess. (or maybe it's more like.. he becomes the victim himself)

Oh, wow, Robson becomes a prag? That surprises me! Who are the others in the group? Sounds like an interesting storyline.

Haha, I remember Mukada's denial at least. Do you watch Glee? There was one student who asked the female psychologist exactly the same question and she was all like "Nope." and one second later you see her sitting lovesick in her car crying to the song "Aaaaall byyyy myyyself"

I think Mukada denied it at first and then admitted that he did know what it was like to love someone too much. It was an interesting conversation--I thought Beecher was adorable hugging Keller's pillow.

I don't like Twilight nor do I know it well, but can tell that your comparison isn't far off! Both pairs have these obsessive-stalkerish-"I can't live without you" vibes. Guess that speaks once again for how fucked up the Edward/Bella romance is XD

Yeah... obviously not as messed up as Beecher and Keller, but there's definitely that whole "I will protect you/you belong to me" thing going on that exists between Beecher and Keller.

I liked how Keller was probably constantly creepy ( a steady kind of creepy ) because he's dangerous and everyone knows it. Beecher on the other hand was creepy sometimes (bigtime creepy then though!) because he was so unpredictable! At least that's how it was for me.

Beecher wasn't exactly creepy for me--more fascinating and mercurial. But I think it was all about self-defense and survival with him. Whereas Keller was a predator--he wanted what he wanted and would do anything to get it. Like the way he manipulated Sister Pete to try to get her to help him with Beecher. That was just sinister... and also kind of psychotically brilliant.

I know, the staring is so involuntarily funny! I couldn't help but grin at how Adebisi and Peter stare each other off and then the camera goes to Miguel and he watches both of them (and even cheers them on)! And all while they're naked except for their shorts... also, the light perfectly illuminates them even though it's in the night and they should be switched off xD

Hahaha, yeah, I remember that well--all of them watching each other, looking so serious.

Keller really did have his moments as a good boyfriend, though his sociopathic tendencies overweigh, I guess. But what was it again, "Love is never bad" or something?
Ohh, right, I loved that. One of the very few scenes where Chris was showing some weakness. I also love how Beecher was practically his weakpoint, similar to how Cyril was Ryan's.

Beecher was definitely Keller's weakness. I remember how sincere he sounded when he told Ryan not to hurt Beecher in episode nine of season four (the video crew filming Oz one). You could tell Keller knew how dangerous Ryan was, and the threat came out a little desperate. He was worried.

I also liked his obvious fear when Beecher told him he was going to confess to Vern about ordering the hit on Hank and let Vern kill him. You could tell in that scene how that would have just destroyed Chris. The way he held Toby before knocking him out was just heartbreaking.

Yes, despite all their bitchfights they did still support each other. I mean, Keller also believed him (it was a suspicious situation with the jealousy after all), that probably meant a lot... also considering that Ronnie and also Vern were once his friends.

I think at the end of the day, Keller knew Toby was honest and didn't have an agenda. Why would he lie? Toby might have moped, but he didn't have the same jealousy issues Keller had.

You're right, it's kinda cute and funny how Toby lets Chris get away with those murders because he knows that's just his very own way of showing love and jealously. Maybe he felt flattered? During the series finale there's also another extreme measure Keller takes that kills a few people and in the last scene you can see Toby smiling about it, that was awesome (a small awesome part in the overall bad ending IMO )

I think Toby definitely felt flattered. Kind of twisted, but that's love in Oz. Toby had endured so much abuse, and along comes a guy so obsessed with him that he's willing to kill. To Toby that probably communicated, "He really loves me."

As tvtropes put it: Beecher and Peter are kinda the "woobies" and "butt monkeys", I guess. I mean how could one *not* feel bad for them? Those people are cold-hearted, I tell ya!

LOL, that's hilarious! Total "woobies." And yeah, totally the guys who need protection. I kind of wonder what would have happened if Peter had gotten a Keller to look after him/take care of him. It would have been interesting if they'd gone that route with him and Adebisi. I guess there was only room for one relationship with that pattern, though. Beecher and Keller's relationship is definitely a big storyline throughout the show.

I have to admit I'm pretty sure I'd also fall for his tricks if I were an inmate. xD Not everyone knows his history of treachery, either. But there was particularly one scene in season 6 which was so over the top and stupid IMO. In that scene, he convinces Pancamo to go against Schibetta even though in the same scene it is indicated that Pancamo doesn't trust Ryan (he accuses him of doubletalking). Apparently, Chucky also thinks Peter is a loony and although he said in season 3 that he doesn't believe in curses, he's all pissed off because according to Ryan Peter will put a curse on him... lots of contradictions there. And I don't even need to get started again on about how strange the wiseguys behave, not supporting the son of their boss etc (and I don't mean as a leader, but just help him cope and f.e. get even with the Aryans), especially because it is revealed that Ryan killed Nino.

Sounds kind of far out. I mean, why would Pancamo be afraid of Schibetta? Yeah, that's a bit much for sure.

Haha, I'll never get over the whole "ADEBISI LIVES!" thing, so unintentionally hilarious Hmh, yeah, Said was even part of those counseling sessions, he knew and felt with Toby. BTW, I really loved those counseling scenes, was always looking forward to them!

I loved them too!! I wish there was more of them. I loved the ones between Toby and Vern, and then the ones with Toby, Vern and Said. I loved the moment where Said stuck up for Toby after Vern was like, "I've never engaged in any homosexual activity." Said got really pissed and was like, "You raped Beecher!" And then Vern denied it and Beecher lost it. That was a great scene.

I thought so, too. Adebisi wouldn't have burned a swastika into his ass, ripped up the photos, made him eat paper, let him beg for fucking his wife, dressed him as a prag etc... or would he? (And he would've shared drugs! <- is that a good point?) I'm not so sure about some of it, he did seem to think he owned Toby's stuff at least! Can't imagine anyone being much worse than Vern though. Given that Adebisi and Keane were um... friends / homeboys / pals? I guess he would've supported Toby's attempts to save him... but then again, it depends on if he wanted to be leader more than he wanted Keane alive? Nevertheless, Keane wanted to die and end the war anyway, but I thought it sweet of Toby to try and save him. Really hated the COs during that part of the story. ;C

Agreed. I think Adebisi wouldn't have abused Beecher in the way Schillinger did... though Adebisi might have shared Beecher with other inmates, and that might have been rough on him. I think Beecher was in a total no-win situation. Vern was pretty determined to have him, too. Even if Beecher hadn't been put in his pod, no doubt Vern would have found some closet to drag him into and rape him.

Oh god, that was one of the scenes where I had to laugh because of the Aryans... Another one was when they are playing on the pool table after that certain scene and Vern says "Pool table's working fine now!" I always feel bad about it though. xD I found it hilarious when Toby came in, dressed up, and Vern's all serious: "My god, you're even more beautiful than I thought", then cracks up laughing with the others. I mean, they are sick fucks, but sometimes Vern's comments and behavior's just too funny. (The "disgusting as a person in RL, but interesting as a character on a TV Show" dilemma again). I'd like to think he sent them away, to be honest I can't really picture it otherwise, Toby was kinda his personal prag, he even "branded him himself" :P

Oh yeah, Vern is one you love to hate! But I think you're probably right... he probably didn't share Toby with anyone. Which is interesting, because presumably most of the others he shared--he was in with several other Aryans when he raped Cyril and Winthrop and Gunzel. I think Toby was kind of special--a real prize in Vern's eyes.

I read somewhere that Toby being upper class--a rich, educated lawyer, was a bit part of what made Schillinger and Keller obsessed with him, and I agree with that assessment. I think it made Vern want to degrade him and Keller want to possess him. Toby represented something different, exotic in a way. They were both pretty obsessed with him.

Hehe, I've already looked him up as well and searched, but yeah... hardly anything about him. The only thing I found to watch was the episode of Law & Order he was in (1995), get this: His role is really sympathetic, an alcoholic who was abused as a child and then commits murder in the 2nd degree and is convicted for 25 years! Him and his poor characters... Some of his few other movies look interesting according to the trailers/summaries, but they're nowhere to be found, not on amazon, ebay,...
I was surprised, too! He's handsome and talented enough IMO. Most people from Oz are more popular by now, too bad the actor of my favorite isn't!

That is too bad! I wonder if he quit acting. Oz was a pretty high profile job--I'd think after that he could have gotten roles. Maybe he decided it wasn't for him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhqIuKDJRJQ Here's Chris on jeopardy. Just looove the clip! He totally owns the others! And he's always swaying around... xDD

Oh cool--I will have to check that out! He seems like a guy with a lot of energy and charisma. I bet he was fun to be around on set. I read somewhere that the guy who played Beecher initially thought he was a jerk or something like that, but then the two became really, really close. I think that's sweet.

We're like addicts, seriously XD

We are! I'm so glad I'm not alone in my addiction.

Ah, I know unit B, there was exactly one story with Peter (and Adebisi) in there called Angel! I was surprised too, there are so many Ryan/Alvarez fics! I never saw anything between those two, did you? I only recall 2 scenes with them together, first when Miguel steals Gloria's stethoscope and when Ryan talks to him before his boxing match.

That pairing surprises me too!! I don't see anything between Ryan and Alvarez... like you said, they hardly shared any scenes together.

Was the Peter/Adebisi story good?

I have to say... I hate McManus in pairings XD

Because you don't like McManus, or you don't see him being into guys? I gotta say, he's not one I really see paired up either. I liked him and Diane together, but he was such a ho sometimes. I couldn't believe he slept with Howell!

Mukada/Alvarez is easier to see, right. I never actually thought Mukada had a crush, but it's a cute thought. Too bad they don't get screentime together during the later seasons =( I saw this great video about them that I loved and thought I had to show you, maybe you'll like him more? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLMLRY5K0iw This catches it pretty well IMO, how Miguel is always lost / (self)destructive and all, I like him in this vid. XD

I will watch this one, too and let you know what I think! I'm actually off to watch another episode (or two??) of the show! We'll see how long I can stay up, but I definitely need to see another episode.

 

[stillarium]

I wonder if that actually happened to them, though. They kind of seemed like their own unit, and you never really saw other prisoners going after them. I wonder if they looked out for each other or if other prisoners did go after them. Vern got one to "beautify" Toby, which I wouldn't think he'd have been able to do if he wasn't at least on neutral terms with them. But who knows... that's one thing I wish we knew more about.

Hmh, I do think it's happened a lot. I mean, many guys also went after Richie because he was gay with that "you like it!"-logic. Probably some of them took money for it... I agree that it would be interesting! They seemed to be nice though, they even took the job killing Nappa for the Italian and someone read that letter to Busmalis (Also, isn't it funny how the only ones we see/know engaging in gay sex are Bikers, Aryans, Homeboys and others? With the Muslim it's clear they despise it, what about the Latinos and Italian though?)

I wonder how much Beecher fought--the first time (when he was getting his ass branded), he was tied up with Schillinger's belt, and then the second time we saw something happening, Beecher willingly stripped for Schillinger. Not willingly, but I don't get the sense that he fought back... I think he kind of took it. It was obviously rape, but it didn't look like he was screaming or fighting, so maybe the COs felt comfortable looking the other way. So many of them were Aryans anyway, especially in the early seasons.

Another good point, maybe that was the reason. He's really passive and submissive in the beginning, he also stayed in his cell for days after he got his tattoo AFAIR. I loved how he finally talked to Andrew about it - he was even completely honest, no manipulating words - and Andy actually agreed that Vern was an evil monster etc. But the way rape gets treated by the Warden (trying to keep the numbers of *reported* rapes down, prisoners deserve it etc), it's probably to be expected that it's like this anyway.

I felt so bad for that guy who was supposed to get his eyes! At the same time, how horrible/chilling must that have been for Moses, hearing about how his body parts would be used once he was dead.

YMe too. I wonder what Moses thought when the guy touched his face so gratefully because he wanted to memorize him while Moses fully knew he would betray him... and if he felt bad about it at all.
A chilly thought indeed, but he would've done great good, I'm sure f.e. eye donators are very hard to come by.

LOL, true... though Keller did eventually hurt him. But he really had to work to get past Beecher's defenses, both before and after he hurt Beecher.



I know! I felt bad for Hernandez, too. So funny that of all people, Rebadow took him down.

One time when Keller was actually hard-working! XD

Yes, the show has a funny way of showing you the sympathetic sides of characters before they die. Hernandez would never have attacked Bob and even talked about the hopelessness in prison with him right before the attack. But I thought it was great how it was narrated (by Bob or Hill?) that even in his dying moments the killer came out and he desperately tried to kill Bob as a reflex.

I know, that was so funny. The guy who played Beecher said he squinted after that, but I've never noticed it. Guess Keller's penis must have really been magic.

I never noticed it either! Yeah, the scene where he casually undresses before Sister Peter Marie is also great magic

With Beecher and Keller, I always thought Keller was the one on top. I mean, he looked at Beecher as his property, and as someone he needed to protect. And it seemed like Beecher was always on the bottom in his relationships. I'm not sure I can see Keller on the bottom really (definitely not with Beecher), but I guess presumably he was with Vern when he was younger. On the show, though, he didn't strike me as one to switch it up--I think part of his thing was that he liked to dominate. Certainly when it came to Beecher at least.

I actually always thought one interesting point about them was that isn't as unbalanced as it seems on the first glance! It's not like Toby is Chris's pet, they're both fucked up. XD Toby started the whole thing and I dare to say that he was also the one who handled the relationship better, Chris had experience with people falling for him etc, but he never fell so hard himself I guess and I doubt it was ever this "honest" (his feelings). There was also dialogue where they said Toby was fucking Keller, so they did probably switch sometimes (what a thing to discuss! ) I love to speculate about Keller and Vern at Lardner. Just imagine a young seductive Keller! He also said something like "He liked to think that he was in control... so I let him think that". Sounds kinky.

LOL, Keller gets around , but McManus is slutty with women, not men.

Oh, wow, Robson becomes a prag? That surprises me! Who are the others in the group? Sounds like an interesting storyline.

*lol* Are you suuure? XD

Yes, it's a nice change for him! The others are some random inmates we don't know. I also found it interesting. Have you seen those scenes by now?

I think Mukada denied it at first and then admitted that he did know what it was like to love someone too much. It was an interesting conversation--I thought Beecher was adorable hugging Keller's pillow.



Yeah... obviously not as messed up as Beecher and Keller, but there's definitely that whole "I will protect you/you belong to me" thing going on that exists between Beecher and Keller.

I don't really remember if Mukada ever admitted it, he always denied ever lusting for men though (of course he would). I love hugging pillows-scenes, so cute!

Oh I guess it's messed up in another way, not as great as B/K of course XD Did you watch Prison Break? I thought Ryan/Gloria is also better than Michael/Sara... again, more messed up, but original.

Beecher wasn't exactly creepy for me--more fascinating and mercurial. But I think it was all about self-defense and survival with him. Whereas Keller was a predator--he wanted what he wanted and would do anything to get it. Like the way he manipulated Sister Pete to try to get her to help him with Beecher. That was just sinister... and also kind of psychotically brilliant.

He was creepy to me sometimes, when he was just acting (?) so insane again. The way I see it the inmates feared/respected them because in their eyes: Keller = dangerous, Beecher = crazy! (But both are both things in fact xD)

Yeah, Keller's charms really worked on Sister Pete, her fantasy about him touching her breast was a bit disturbing

Beecher was definitely Keller's weakness. I remember how sincere he sounded when he told Ryan not to hurt Beecher in episode nine of season four (the video crew filming Oz one). You could tell Keller knew how dangerous Ryan was, and the threat came out a little desperate. He was worried.

I also liked his obvious fear when Beecher told him he was going to confess to Vern about ordering the hit on Hank and let Vern kill him. You could tell in that scene how that would have just destroyed Chris. The way he held Toby before knocking him out was just heartbreaking.

Aww, I'll have to rewatch that! Makes me sad again that Oz has been finished for so many years and the fandom seems dead. I'm not used to that, the other series I watch have a very active fanbase that consults you with discussions/fanfics etc once you're finished

I think at the end of the day, Keller knew Toby was honest and didn't have an agenda. Why would he lie? Toby might have moped, but he didn't have the same jealousy issues Keller had.



I think Toby definitely felt flattered. Kind of twisted, but that's love in Oz. Toby had endured so much abuse, and along comes a guy so obsessed with him that he's willing to kill. To Toby that probably communicated, "He really loves me."

Yes, Toby wasn't as jealous but Keller would've liked to think that maybe. Felt a bit sorry for Ronnie though! Who knows if he would've snitched on him at all (he did lie a bit though, first not telling him the FBI agent asked him about Chris, then switching to "of course I told them nothing")

Even I find it kinda cute and romantic, in a messed up way. Luckily, Toby only slept with minor characters, just imagine Ryan / Toby for instance Ryan vs Keller would be really interesting...

Oh and I found a quote of Ryan telling Toby that he does't get drugs anymore because "you never pay up", guess that answers our question from before!

LOL, that's hilarious! Total "woobies." And yeah, totally the guys who need protection. I kind of wonder what would have happened if Peter had gotten a Keller to look after him/take care of him. It would have been interesting if they'd gone that route with him and Adebisi. I guess there was only room for one relationship with that pattern, though. Beecher and Keller's relationship is definitely a big storyline throughout the show.

Awww, I'd like to see that. I wonder why exactly Peter was out for 2 1/2 seasons, if that was originally planned or because of the actor in some way. Adebisi had to leave because he wanted to work on "The Return of the Mummy" I think, they would've kept him on the show otherwise (no wonder, he was an icon! ). But unfortunately, that would've been a similar pattern for the writers to use, that's right. Though in my eyes they are already veeery different, since they were never friends, they're the leaders of 2 groups and the whole "I raped and traumatized you" thing

Yes, I'm so glad they had an important couple like B/K!

Sounds kind of far out. I mean, why would Pancamo be afraid of Schibetta? Yeah, that's a bit much for sure.



I loved them too!! I wish there was more of them. I loved the ones between Toby and Vern, and then the ones with Toby, Vern and Said. I loved the moment where Said stuck up for Toby after Vern was like, "I've never engaged in any homosexual activity." Said got really pissed and was like, "You raped Beecher!" And then Vern denied it and Beecher lost it. That was a great scene.

Yeah, that was really a plot device to get Schibetta out =( Poor woobie , first the death of his parents... then the rapes by Adebisi and the Nazis, then Ryan manipulating Chucky... guy never gets a break! BTW, here's the first scene with him, starting around 2:20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChNLBuuuPVc If that isn't ultra mega woobie...

Yes, I was sooo excited about the Vern / Beecher interactions, they could've made more scenes if you ask me xD Vern is always interesting to look at, but even more so when he's peaceful! (I liked how he tried to befriend Dino at the beginning and claimed in front of investigator Burrano that the Sicilians at least have honor / a codex like himself, unlike the rest of the "animals") Oh, I loved it when he denied it and Toby + Said were upset. That was even the time when Vern and Toby made peace... until Toby snitched about the rapes, at least.

Agreed. I think Adebisi wouldn't have abused Beecher in the way Schillinger did... though Adebisi might have shared Beecher with other inmates, and that might have been rough on him. I think Beecher was in a total no-win situation. Vern was pretty determined to have him, too. Even if Beecher hadn't been put in his pod, no doubt Vern would have found some closet to drag him into and rape him.

That's a sinister thought, but true. Still, I did think "noo, don't move into his cell" when it first happened, I'm sure he would've had it a looot easier even if he could've been raped somewhere else, too. Vern was only able to control him that much because they were cellmates... being locked with him during every night...

Oh yeah, Vern is one you love to hate! But I think you're probably right... he probably didn't share Toby with anyone. Which is interesting, because presumably most of the others he shared--he was in with several other Aryans when he raped Cyril and Winthrop and Gunzel. I think Toby was kind of special--a real prize in Vern's eyes.

I read somewhere that Toby being upper class--a rich, educated lawyer, was a bit part of what made Schillinger and Keller obsessed with him, and I agree with that assessment. I think it made Vern want to degrade him and Keller want to possess him. Toby represented something different, exotic in a way. They were both pretty obsessed with him.

Yeah, that sounds understandable! I mean, most of them were criminals at heart, Toby must've been fascinating. I guess all the gang rapes we've seen (Cyril, Winthrop and Gunzel, Schibetta) were more "heat of the moment" or something, but he really planned how to get Beecher. (OK, he did plan for Adam, too...) Now I wonder how it started with Vern / Keller, what do you think?

That is too bad! I wonder if he quit acting. Oz was a pretty high profile job--I'd think after that he could have gotten roles. Maybe he decided it wasn't for him?

He hasn't quit, he did have about a project each year (or every 2 years), but mostly it's minor roles. I'm not sure if he could have gotten more through Oz though, his role was kinda... yeah. °° Often they don't want a role associated with another character =/ I hope it isn't like that, though.

Oh cool--I will have to check that out! He seems like a guy with a lot of energy and charisma. I bet he was fun to be around on set. I read somewhere that the guy who played Beecher initially thought he was a jerk or something like that, but then the two became really, really close. I think that's sweet.

Yes, definitely very charismatic and the right guy to play Keller - he even has the same first name! I saw him being guest on a show where he told a funny story about the one time he got arrested. The host also asked him what his parents thought about Oz and Chris replied they like to watch him on his other works but they avoid Oz and are all like "Oh... we don't really care who you're sodomizing as long as you're happy " That cracked me up big time both he and his parents seem to be made of win!

Ohh, really? Sounds cute! I'd love to know more about this stuff, the actors behind the scenes etc. There's a clip of them during an awards show where they spontaneously begin to make out and the audience cheers a lot. XD

We are! I'm so glad I'm not alone in my addiction.



That pairing surprises me too!! I don't see anything between Ryan and Alvarez... like you said, they hardly shared any scenes together.

Was the Peter/Adebisi story good?

Me too! *waves banner*

Maybe it's because they're two of the typical guys to slash? B / K is a given and I can see why people don't write many fanfics about pairings with Adebisi, Said or Vern. Though that's a pity.

I just remembered that Vern and Robson share many funny scenes during the gums story (and also when Vern is almost converted), it's nice to see bits of their relationship... they do deserve each other, in a bad way

It was good, but really disturbing, too! It's about how Schibetta doesn't remember and Adebisi tells him they were lovers and uses him (but does seem to love him in a way)... in the end he's fed up because Peter is no longer clean and innocent since he made him his prag and he leaves him to his buddies in the hope that he'll get traumatized again and will stay away from him. http://mari-francesca.livejournal.com/ here are two IMO good short ones. All in all, I found only 9 with him I think, most of them are short.

Because you don't like McManus, or you don't see him being into guys? I gotta say, he's not one I really see paired up either. I liked him and Diane together, but he was such a ho sometimes. I couldn't believe he slept with Howell!

I feel kinda on-off with McManus, sometimes I like him and sometimes I don't. But I don't like seeing him in pairings, I was never much interested in his love life I guess. XD I still think Howell's one of the worst people in there.

I will watch this one, too and let you know what I think! I'm actually off to watch another episode (or two??) of the show! We'll see how long I can stay up, but I definitely need to see another episode.

OK, I'm excited to read your opinions. It's funny how different our timezones are, when you began watching the eps, I think it was morning here

 

[DevilEyes]

OMG you guys write so much, I hardly have time to read it all.

I can't go back to find specific quotes, so;

re: A lot of people dying in Oz
You ain't seen nothing yet! It gets really crazy in season 6.

re: Keller "dominant/submissive" issue
I think they probably switch. And I think that Keller can be adaptable, since he is mostly obsessed not with power and control, like Vern*, but with seducing people and making them love him; and assuming a "submissive" role at times can work well with some people.

*The sexual behavior and motives of Oz's predators, Schillinger, Adebisi and Keller shows the differences in their personalities: Vern gets off on power and control, Adebisi is hedonistic likes sex (just like he liked drugs) and doesn't care how he gets it, Keller wants to make people love him unconditionally and that's why he's all about seduction, not rape.

re: Mukada
Father Mukada would never admit to lusting after anyone, and certainly wouldn't give into it, or if he did, it would cause a lot of self-loathing - being a very sincere celibate priest. There is actually a storyline that touches on that in season 6.

re: fanfiction
Are you using the word "fanfiction" as a synonym for "slash"?

As for pairings such as Ryan/Alvarez, etc., they don't make any sense, but I'm not surprised: slash fanfiction is full of unlikely and nonsensical pairings. You'd think that at least when it comes to Oz, people would stick to those that actually exist in the show, since they provide more than enough material. But no, just like in Trek fandom or any other fandom, people will always come up with all sorts of pairings, and quite a few times these are between characters who have barely ever shared a scene and have never showed any interest in each other of any kind, and/or at least one seems completely disinterested in homosexual relationships even if you are looking hard to see homoerotic subtext in everything. That's because those fics are probably written by some girl who just wants to fantasize about two guys she finds hot getting it on, no matter if it makes sense within the context of the show or not. Frankly, the abundance of such nonsensical slash is what turned me off of fanfiction in general for some time.

 

[Lord Garth]

re: A lot of people dying in Oz
You ain't seen nothing yet! It gets really crazy in season 6.

Yup. Season 6 might as well be a horror movie. A real slasher flick.

 

[stillarium]

Yeah I know, I always go "wow" when I see how much we've actually written! xDD Hope we haven't scared off everyone.

I also think they switch, Keller seems to fit himself to the partner (more or less) to get them to like him. That one knows how to use his charm...

*The sexual behavior and motives of Oz's predators, Schillinger, Adebisi and Keller shows the differences in their personalities: Vern gets off on power and control, Adebisi is hedonistic likes sex (just like he liked drugs) and doesn't care how he gets it, Keller wants to make people love him unconditionally and that's why he's all about seduction, not rape.

That's an interesting thought, sounds quite right to me! I loved the conversation between Adebisi and Nappa about "fags", where Adebisi's all like "outside I hated them, but inside I need some service", while Nappa was conservative and Adebisi's mocking him how he'd like to be more like Nappa (while he had already infected him with AIDS). He's totally hedonistic! Oh and that other scene in the beginning where he can hardly understand why Augustus would sleep with his wife if he can't feel anything down there.

I'm sure Mukada would never act on feelings and/or lust, but I wonder if he doesn't think about it sometimes, seems almost impossible not to!

Fanfiction = slash? o.o No, where did we/I say that?
Though I'm not surprised 90% of the Oz fanfics seem to be slashfics, given how they're only a few female characters.

Well, not only slash fiction have nonsensical pairings, that goes for all kinds of pairings, het or not. It seems like as long as they're attractive people, fans come up with everything. I don't mind a strange pairing as when it's well written and believable... but I hardly read them anyway. I like my pairings with a bit to go on with and I see absolutely nothing in Ryan/Alvarez, that's why I'm surprised it seems so popular! Ryan/Alvarez sounds indeed like the stereotypical hot (and white! o.O ) pairing for fangirls.

 

[DevilEyes]

Fanfiction = slash? o.o No, where did we/I say that?

I just get that impression when people talk about fanfiction (not just Oz) and it is all about slash (or less commonly, het) pairings

Well, not only slash fiction have nonsensical pairings, that goes for all kinds of pairings, het or not. It seems like as long as they're attractive people, fans come up with everything. I don't mind a strange pairing as when it's well written and believable... but I hardly read them anyway. I like my pairings with a bit to go on with and I see absolutely nothing in Ryan/Alvarez, that's why I'm surprised it seems so popular! Ryan/Alvarez sounds indeed like the stereotypical hot (and white! o.O ) pairing for fangirls.

I know, it's just that slash seems more popular, but browsing through fanfiction, LJ groups etc. of any fandom - Trek, BSG, Lost - you always see all sorts of both slash and het pairings, some of which make no sense whatsoever. A lot of times I just go: WTF? Who thought of that? But at least when I see that I know what to expect. It's trickier when it's about an existing non-sexual relationship from a show, and the description doesn't make it clear if it is a regular fanfic, trying to fill gaps in the story and giving an alternate take on it, or just porn with very little plot. That's happened to me with DS9 fanfiction - I once started reading a fic that seemed, by the description, to be an alternate take on DS9 Waltz and about Sisko/Dukat dynamic, Prophets, Bajor and all that, but it turned out that the Prophets stuff was just an excuse for Sisko/Dukat slash porn. (I've never read any of those about Quark, Odo and Odo's bucket, though ) The good thing is that those kind of PWP fics make me laugh, so they're fun in their own way.

 

[stillarium]

I just get that impression when people talk about fanfiction (not just Oz) and it is all about slash (or less commonly, het) pairings

Oh, I see. Well, most fanfics revolve around pairings, sometimes I'd wish for more general stories as well! Especially well-written stories revolving around one character and their POV (I think they're called vignettes?) are really great IMO.

I know, it's just that slash seems more popular, but browsing through fanfiction, LJ groups etc. of any fandom - Trek, BSG, Lost - you always see all sorts of both slash and het pairings, some of which make no sense whatsoever. A lot of times I just go: WTF? Who thought of that? But at least when I see that I know what to expect. It's trickier when it's about an existing non-sexual relationship from a show, and the description doesn't make it clear if it is a regular fanfic, trying to fill gaps in the story and giving an alternate take on it, or just porn with very little plot. That's happened to me with DS9 fanfiction - I once started reading a fic that seemed, by the description, to be an alternate take on DS9 Waltz and about Sisko/Dukat dynamic, Prophets, Bajor and all that, but it turned out that the Prophets stuff was just an excuse for Sisko/Dukat slash porn. (I've never read any of those about Quark, Odo and Odo's bucket, though ) The good thing is that those kind of PWP fics make me laugh, so they're fun in their own way.

Yeah, it is kinda crazy by now, a few years ago there were only a handful of slashfics and now it's more common than the other way around! I haven't really seen crazy Trek or Lost stories yet (with the Trek slash I've see so far, the old-fashioned pairings with Kirk / Spock / Bones seem to dominate, or Sulu / Chekov. I haven't read Lost fics, because I'm afraid of spoilers, as I am not that far into the series yet) but I totally get what you mean. In any bigger fandom there are lots of straaange pairings!
It's really annoying when fanfics aren't labeled correctly, I, too would like to know beforehand how explicit and porny they are / how much story there is. PWPs are great sometimes too and fun in their own way like you said but it depends on the mood if one wants to read them, at least in my case

 

[Top41]

Hmh, I do think it's happened a lot. I mean, many guys also went after Richie because he was gay with that "you like it!"-logic.

Did they? I remember the Aryans did, but otherwise I don't remember anyone going after him. I loved his comment about only sucking the cocks he wanted to suck or something like that. Poor Richie--he was one character I was really sorry to see go.

Probably some of them took money for it... I agree that it would be interesting! They seemed to be nice though, they even took the job killing Nappa for the Italian and someone read that letter to Busmalis (Also, isn't it funny how the only ones we see/know engaging in gay sex are Bikers, Aryans, Homeboys and others? With the Muslim it's clear they despise it, what about the Latinos and Italian though?)

True--it seemed like some of the gay guys in jail were quite enterprising. I felt bad for Nathan--I think that was the guy who killed Nappa. I wish he hadn't done it, but he probably felt like he had nothing to lose at that point.

It's funny, because while the Italians and Latinos have a real macho culture, so do the Aryans, Bikers and Homeboys. I wonder why some went for it while others didn't.

Another good point, maybe that was the reason. He's really passive and submissive in the beginning, he also stayed in his cell for days after he got his tattoo AFAIR.

I remember feeling so bad for him with that. You could tell he was depressed and frightened and just overwhelmed. They didn't go too much into the toll the initial assaults took on Beecher, but seeing him staying in bed, pretty much hiding out, kind of clued you in to how he was dealing with it.

I loved how he finally talked to Andrew about it - he was even completely honest, no manipulating words - and Andy actually agreed that Vern was an evil monster etc. But the way rape gets treated by the Warden (trying to keep the numbers of *reported* rapes down, prisoners deserve it etc), it's probably to be expected that it's like this anyway.

I was really surprised he told Andy! I think that was when I really knew for sure he wouldn't hurt Andy, and that he was being honest with him. And really, is there anything that could be more damaging to Vern than the truth? Here was this kind guy, who helped Andy in jail--despite the fact that Andy's father raped and brutalized him. Vern's own actions turned Andy against him--Beecher was really just the mouthpiece.

YMe too. I wonder what Moses thought when the guy touched his face so gratefully because he wanted to memorize him while Moses fully knew he would betray him... and if he felt bad about it at all.
A chilly thought indeed, but he would've done great good, I'm sure f.e. eye donators are very hard to come by.

Moses looked like he definitely felt bad to me. But I guess not bad enough to make him change his plan. :/

One time when Keller was actually hard-working! XD

Beecher made Keller work very hard to get into his pants in season three!

Yes, the show has a funny way of showing you the sympathetic sides of characters before they die. Hernandez would never have attacked Bob and even talked about the hopelessness in prison with him right before the attack. But I thought it was great how it was narrated (by Bob or Hill?) that even in his dying moments the killer came out and he desperately tried to kill Bob as a reflex.

Yeah, I felt bad for Hernandez when he died, too. It was like he finally let his guard down and then the least likely person on the planet to take him out did!

I actually always thought one interesting point about them was that isn't as unbalanced as it seems on the first glance! It's not like Toby is Chris's pet, they're both fucked up. XD Toby started the whole thing and I dare to say that he was also the one who handled the relationship better, Chris had experience with people falling for him etc, but he never fell so hard himself I guess and I doubt it was ever this "honest" (his feelings). There was also dialogue where they said Toby was fucking Keller, so they did probably switch sometimes (what a thing to discuss! )

Hmmm... I don't remember that dialogue, but I think Keller looked at Toby as his. Not his pet so much as his property. The casual way he would possessively put his hands on Toby--like when he put his arm on Toby's shoulder in their pod at the beginning of season four, or sniffed Toby and grabbed Toby's crotch in that first episode after Toby came back from seeing his father. I don't think Keller looked at them as equals. I can see Keller switching it up maybe when he was younger, but part of the draw for him with Toby was controlling him... even when he realized he really loved him. I think a big part of that love was possession.

I love to speculate about Keller and Vern at Lardner. Just imagine a young seductive Keller! He also said something like "He liked to think that he was in control... so I let him think that". Sounds kinky.

I think that illustrated the difference between Keller and Toby. Keller was better at adapting--he clearly didn't think of what happened between him and Vern as rape, and he manipulated the situation to his advantage. Whereas Toby was definitely a victim, and thought of himself as one.

Oh I guess it's messed up in another way, not as great as B/K of course XD Did you watch Prison Break? I thought Ryan/Gloria is also better than Michael/Sara... again, more messed up, but original.

I did watch Prison Break, but only first season. It's so much tamer than Oz!

He was creepy to me sometimes, when he was just acting (?) so insane again. The way I see it the inmates feared/respected them because in their eyes: Keller = dangerous, Beecher = crazy! (But both are both things in fact xD)

Beecher's craziness definitely helped protect him from the other inmates, which is why I think it was a calculated device. Like when he trapped Vern into messing up his parole--he gleefully told Augustus his plan. No matter how nutty he became, Beecher was never really completely unhinged.

Yeah, Keller's charms really worked on Sister Pete, her fantasy about him touching her breast was a bit disturbing

That was! I was surprised how she really got taken in by him... and then was surprised to find out it was all about Beecher (especially after seeing Keller with all his ex-wives ).

Aww, I'll have to rewatch that! Makes me sad again that Oz has been finished for so many years and the fandom seems dead. I'm not used to that, the other series I watch have a very active fanbase that consults you with discussions/fanfics etc once you're finished

Same here! This is the first show I've really gone back and discovered on DVD like this. And I want to talk about it and it's like, there are no Oz boards out there.

Yes, Toby wasn't as jealous but Keller would've liked to think that maybe. Felt a bit sorry for Ronnie though! Who knows if he would've snitched on him at all (he did lie a bit though, first not telling him the FBI agent asked him about Chris, then switching to "of course I told them nothing")

He did, and I think Keller could tell. EIther that or he just decided he trusted Toby more.

Even I find it kinda cute and romantic, in a messed up way. Luckily, Toby only slept with minor characters, just imagine Ryan / Toby for instance Ryan vs Keller would be really interesting...

Oh man, that would have been a match up! I'm not sure who I'd put my money on in that face off. I think it would have led to a truce: Ryan agreeing to never touch Toby again if Keller would back off. I think Keller is one of the few people who intimidated Ryan, or earned his respect--when Ryan was getting frustrated with Toby talking too much when the news crew was there, he made some veiled threat against Toby and Keller told him to back off... and Ryan actually did! But I think Ryan genuinely liked Toby and probably was just blowing off steam more than anything else.

Oh and I found a quote of Ryan telling Toby that he does't get drugs anymore because "you never pay up", guess that answers our question from before!

Hahahaha, yeah, I thought Beecher was getting them for free!

Awww, I'd like to see that. I wonder why exactly Peter was out for 2 1/2 seasons, if that was originally planned or because of the actor in some way. Adebisi had to leave because he wanted to work on "The Return of the Mummy" I think, they would've kept him on the show otherwise (no wonder, he was an icon! ). But unfortunately, that would've been a similar pattern for the writers to use, that's right. Though in my eyes they are already veeery different, since they were never friends, they're the leaders of 2 groups and the whole "I raped and traumatized you" thing

True, and it would have been nice to see Adebisi get another chance to be more human--it would have been one of those unlikely pairings that could have worked in a weird way! Too bad they never went that route.

Yes, I was sooo excited about the Vern / Beecher interactions, they could've made more scenes if you ask me xD Vern is always interesting to look at, but even more so when he's peaceful! (I liked how he tried to befriend Dino at the beginning and claimed in front of investigator Burrano that the Sicilians at least have honor / a codex like himself, unlike the rest of the "animals") Oh, I loved it when he denied it and Toby + Said were upset. That was even the time when Vern and Toby made peace... until Toby snitched about the rapes, at least.

Vern is definitely an interesting character--he's certainly one I "love to hate." He's a bad, bad guy but he's so subtle about it sometimes. Like the way he got Beecher into his pod, or the way he tempted Beecher with getting to see Keller by delivering the mail. Vern is very good at getting what he wants.

That's a sinister thought, but true. Still, I did think "noo, don't move into his cell" when it first happened, I'm sure he would've had it a looot easier even if he could've been raped somewhere else, too. Vern was only able to control him that much because they were cellmates... being locked with him during every night...

Poor Toby--yeah, I think Vern knew exactly how to get him where he wanted him. I remember thinking, gee, he seems like a nice old guy when he sat with Beecher at breakfast that first day. And then Toby was so happy to be moving into his cell, and he smiled as Vern showed him his tattoos... and then got frightened very, very quickly when Vern talked about branding him himself!

Yeah, that sounds understandable! I mean, most of them were criminals at heart, Toby must've been fascinating. I guess all the gang rapes we've seen (Cyril, Winthrop and Gunzel, Schibetta) were more "heat of the moment" or something, but he really planned how to get Beecher. (OK, he did plan for Adam, too...)

Beecher must have been total plum pickings for Vern. And Vern kept him for months--you could tell he really liked hurting Toby, and controlling him. I do see some parallels between the way Vern and Keller treat Toby--wanting possess and control him. I think that's why Toby lost it when Chris called him a bitch in their pod and grabbed him after Toby said he asked his dad to find Schillinger's son. Toby was like, "I'm nobody's bitch." The way Toby exercised control in their relationship seemed to be to play hard to get.

Now I wonder how it started with Vern / Keller, what do you think?

Well, Keller said Vern protected him from some black guy in jail, so I imagine it was somewhat similar to the situation with Beecher and Adebisi, though I imagine he helped Chris out in a fight rather than out of a sexual situation like with Beecher and Adebisi. And while Toby was obviously miserable--which seemed to only excite Schillinger more--I imagine Chris was more of a partner--kind of like Robson, without being an Aryan ass. What do you think?

The host also asked him what his parents thought about Oz and Chris replied they like to watch him on his other works but they avoid Oz and are all like "Oh... we don't really care who you're sodomizing as long as you're happy " That cracked me up big time both he and his parents seem to be made of win!

OMG, that's hilarious! Well, Keller sure seemed happy sodomizing Beecher.

Ohh, really? Sounds cute! I'd love to know more about this stuff, the actors behind the scenes etc. There's a clip of them during an awards show where they spontaneously begin to make out and the audience cheers a lot. XD

I saw that on YouTube--insanely hot!

It was good, but really disturbing, too! It's about how Schibetta doesn't remember and Adebisi tells him they were lovers and uses him (but does seem to love him in a way)... in the end he's fed up because Peter is no longer clean and innocent since he made him his prag and he leaves him to his buddies in the hope that he'll get traumatized again and will stay away from him. http://mari-francesca.livejournal.com/ here are two IMO good short ones. All in all, I found only 9 with him I think, most of them are short.

Interesting take on what happened between them. I guess we never really saw Adebisi in a real relationship to know how he'd behave.

OK, I'm excited to read your opinions. It's funny how different our timezones are, when you began watching the eps, I think it was morning here

Ha, yeah! I wrote that late at night before going to bed. I did watch an episode though...

re: A lot of people dying in Oz
You ain't seen nothing yet! It gets really crazy in season 6.

Oh no! I hope none of my favs die. Stay away from Beecher, Keller, Ryan and Said, Oz grim reapers!

re: Keller "dominant/submissive" issue
I think they probably switch. And I think that Keller can be adaptable, since he is mostly obsessed not with power and control, like Vern*, but with seducing people and making them love him; and assuming a "submissive" role at times can work well with some people.

I guess I can see Keller switching it up with other people now and then, but not so much Beecher. I think Keller likes seducing people, but he definitely seemed to have a power and control fixation on Beecher. He wanted to have Beecher, wanted to know Beecher would submit to him in any situation--whether it was to let Keller tell him what to do or touch him possessively (not to mention sexually) in front of the other prisoners. Beecher would play hard to get, but at the end of the day he did submit to Keller--he gave in at the end of season three, and he let Keller take the blame for the hit on Hank. A big draw for Keller with Beecher seemed to be about possessing and controlling him.

*The sexual behavior and motives of Oz's predators, Schillinger, Adebisi and Keller shows the differences in their personalities: Vern gets off on power and control, Adebisi is hedonistic likes sex (just like he liked drugs) and doesn't care how he gets it, Keller wants to make people love him unconditionally and that's why he's all about seduction, not rape.

I did think it was interesting and telling that Keller never tried to rape Beecher. He easily could have overpowered Beecher in season three, despite Beecher's tough attitude. That was what convinced me he does love Beecher, but I do think "owning" Beecher and having Beecher submit completely to him was part of his kick.

Vern is definitely about power and control, which is why he got off so much on having Beecher in season one. It got boring for him once he'd completely broken Beecher down... and yet, clearly no one after presented nearly as much of a challenge. He was done with Gunzel in like two episodes!

Adebisi was a total hedonist--but even he recognized he was out of control in season four. And once he had free rein, he realized he still wasn't happy.

re: Mukada
Father Mukada would never admit to lusting after anyone, and certainly wouldn't give into it, or if he did, it would cause a lot of self-loathing - being a very sincere celibate priest. There is actually a storyline that touches on that in season 6.

Interesting--I'll look forward to seeing that.

re: fanfiction
Are you using the word "fanfiction" as a synonym for "slash"?

No, definitely not... though understandably in this particular fandom, the lines are a bit more blurry than in most.

As for pairings such as Ryan/Alvarez, etc., they don't make any sense, but I'm not surprised: slash fanfiction is full of unlikely and nonsensical pairings. You'd think that at least when it comes to Oz, people would stick to those that actually exist in the show, since they provide more than enough material. But no, just like in Trek fandom or any other fandom, people will always come up with all sorts of pairings, and quite a few times these are between characters who have barely ever shared a scene and have never showed any interest in each other of any kind, and/or at least one seems completely disinterested in homosexual relationships even if you are looking hard to see homoerotic subtext in everything. That's because those fics are probably written by some girl who just wants to fantasize about two guys she finds hot getting it on, no matter if it makes sense within the context of the show or not. Frankly, the abundance of such nonsensical slash is what turned me off of fanfiction in general for some time.

Yeah, there are some real WTF? pairings out there in every fandom. I've only really been reading the Beecher/Keller ones since they are canon. But there are a lot of AUs out there--some very well-written, but also very far removed from the show. With fanfic I kind of take a "to each their own" attitude. Right now, I'm mostly interested in the show. Speaking of...

I did watch episode seven of the fifth season! Another good entry. Rivera did end up taking the dog Alvarez trained. I'm glad that storyline ended up having a happy ending--so few in Oz do.

Robson found out his gums were from a black guy and Vern and the brotherhood excommunicated him! Sad for Robson, though he's such an ass. It was interesting to see that there is a "higher authority" in the brotherhood than Vern--I never really thought of it extending outside of prison before, but obviously, of course it does.

Beecher, being the bleeding heart he is, tries to get Gunzel help but Gunzel won't talk to Sister Pete. It just really is hard to feel bad for this guy, even in the wake of his death--which really, how stupid was he for trying to climb the fence? I don't believe in Glynn's idea of rape as a leveling tool, but at the same time, I can't feel bad for a rapist who gets raped. I know this is going to eat away at Beecher though. I can't figure out why Said cares, save for the fact that he's worried about what it will do to Beecher. I have a feeling telling Beecher to stay away from Keller isn't going to do much good though.

Ryan now thinks Cyril is better off getting executed? Uh, no, I don't buy that. I hope he changes his mind about the appeal/clemency before Cyril ends up getting sentenced to death!

So did the COs kill Ja or just beat him up? ANd will Redding find out Poet gave Augustus the drugs? Anyway, overall, a good episode. Only one more to go in the fifth season!

 

[DevilEyes]

^ Oh my - the season 5 finale - if I remember correctly, that one ends on a big moment as well... kind of setting the stage for S6...

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Season 5's finale is the biggest "Well, fuck, what happens now?" moments I've ever seen. And I loved season 6's answer to that question.

 

[stillarium]

Oh yeah, the ending of season 5 is sad =(

Did they? I remember the Aryans did, but otherwise I don't remember anyone going after him. I loved his comment about only sucking the cocks he wanted to suck or something like that. Poor Richie--he was one character I was really sorry to see go.

Yes and there was someone immediately after the Aryans (maybe he was an Aryan, too?), the one Richie pushed away and accidentally killed. And I remember that when Mukada asked if he had been raped, he said "Yeah, sure. But that's not why I'm here). Seemed to be a pretty common occurence. =/

True--it seemed like some of the gay guys in jail were quite enterprising. I felt bad for Nathan--I think that was the guy who killed Nappa. I wish he hadn't done it, but he probably felt like he had nothing to lose at that point.

Haha, wasn't it Nat? Nappa was all like "short for Nathan?" "No, shortform for Natalie"
Yes, he wanted to see if AIDS or the execution would get him first. Loved how he died peacefully in his sleep and Sister Pete finished painting his nails

It's funny, because while the Italians and Latinos have a real macho culture, so do the Aryans, Bikers and Homeboys. I wonder why some went for it while others didn't.

Maybe there wasn't an opportunity? Miguel will get a male love interest during the end though I was surprised, when I looked on wikipedia at Chucky Pancamo's article it said that he had raped Robson and had some affair (?) with Torquemada (a guy who'll appear during season 6). I don't remember that at all!! And I'm sure he didn't have anything with Robson, or did he? Please tell me if you see otherwise in the upcoming episodes

I remember feeling so bad for him with that. You could tell he was depressed and frightened and just overwhelmed. They didn't go too much into the toll the initial assaults took on Beecher, but seeing him staying in bed, pretty much hiding out, kind of clued you in to how he was dealing with it.

Yes... Whittlesey got big bonus points during that, I remember she spoke to him that prison is hard etc and convinced him that he should call his wife and let her visit him. I think I'd hide out in prison, too. It's funny, I was thinking "Why can't they get along and just let each other be in peace?" but they probably wouldn't be criminals if they were able to do that

I was really surprised he told Andy! I think that was when I really knew for sure he wouldn't hurt Andy, and that he was being honest with him. And really, is there anything that could be more damaging to Vern than the truth? Here was this kind guy, who helped Andy in jail--despite the fact that Andy's father raped and brutalized him. Vern's own actions turned Andy against him--Beecher was really just the mouthpiece.

Me too, I was positively surprised. It's a strange thought if you wonder how it would've went if Beecher hadn't teased Schillinger and actually wanted genuinely to help, maybe Schillinger would've even been grateful later on. You could tell he was honestly happy that Andrew had quit drugs.

Hmmm... I don't remember that dialogue, but I think Keller looked at Toby as his.

It was more an offhand remark where he mentioned that he fucked Keller, I think it had something to do with telling his parents how he felt about another man. I think with Keller, it's really hard to say if he thought of someone as equal at all. He manipulated practically everyone, but that doesn't necessarily mean he felt he was better than them. I have the feeling he saw f.e. Ryan as equal, but that wouldn't have stopped him from going against him.

I think that illustrated the difference between Keller and Toby. Keller was better at adapting--he clearly didn't think of what happened between him and Vern as rape, and he manipulated the situation to his advantage. Whereas Toby was definitely a victim, and thought of himself as one.

Yes, wasn't this also an issue at the beginning? I think Sister Pete told Toby that he saw himself as a victim, but the victims were actually the young girl and her family. I once read a fanfic from Vern's POV where he claimed that Beecher didn't appreciate being his prag at all and didn't realize that he could have had it worse: He didn't share him and he was under his protection. That sounds messed up, but totally fitting to Vern's logic and he's got a point somewhere
Keller is really tough... I think his charming way makes everyone forget sometimes, but he is probably the one who we saw killing the most inmates by himself (Ryan was only manipulating others mostly), plus he was a serial killer before and before that he got into Lardner when he was only 17. No wonder he's good as adapting, he wouldn't have made it otherwise.

Prison Break is really nothing compared to Oz I remember reading someone feeling that T-Bag's like Keller + Schillinger...

Beecher's craziness definitely helped protect him from the other inmates, which is why I think it was a calculated device. Like when he trapped Vern into messing up his parole--he gleefully told Augustus his plan. No matter how nutty he became, Beecher was never really completely unhinged.

Yes, I think he was hardly ever REALLY crazy (probably when he took the dump on Vern's face... irks!). But I'm not sure if he really calculated it when he told Hill or if he was just really, really gleeful
(OMG, when I read your "unhinged", I immediately thought of the conversation at the pool table X_X just like I'll have to think of Robspoon now everytime someone mentions spooning... I think you'll get to see it in one of the next episodes!)

That was! I was surprised how she really got taken in by him... and then was surprised to find out it was all about Beecher (especially after seeing Keller with all his ex-wives ).



Same here! This is the first show I've really gone back and discovered on DVD like this. And I want to talk about it and it's like, there are no Oz boards out there.

He was really calculating about that one. I wonder if he always has a plan in my mind when he tries to charm someone or if he just does it first automatically and thinks about what advantages it would grant him afterwards I loved one scene where he was flirting with Howell and the next second when Sister Pete came in he was all flirty towards her XD

Yeah, the fandom is dusty I saw a community with fic exchanges, but it's always around Christmas =( So I missed it and now it's almost a year until there's one again. I saw that there are still a few contributions now and then, but they are almost always B / K. At first, I would've been happy to just find a place to discuss the series, though. So I'm glad I found your thread

He did, and I think Keller could tell. EIther that or he just decided he trusted Toby more.



Oh man, that would have been a match up! I'm not sure who I'd put my money on in that face off. I think it would have led to a truce: Ryan agreeing to never touch Toby again if Keller would back off. I think Keller is one of the few people who intimidated Ryan, or earned his respect--when Ryan was getting frustrated with Toby talking too much when the news crew was there, he made some veiled threat against Toby and Keller told him to back off... and Ryan actually did! But I think Ryan genuinely liked Toby and probably was just blowing off steam more than anything else.

Yeah, in the end Keller always seemed to trust Toby more than the others. There are two horrible things that he does later on, though We'll have to discuss those too! XD
Hmmh... I don't really remember him threatening Ryan during the news thing. I think Ryan was the one who wanted to be paid in exchange for info? XD
I think I would have to bet on Keller. Ryan is really good at manipulating, but Keller's the better killer. Guess it depends on if they were facing each other directly or not.

Hahahaha, yeah, I thought Beecher was getting them for free!



True, and it would have been nice to see Adebisi get another chance to be more human--it would have been one of those unlikely pairings that could have worked in a weird way! Too bad they never went that route.

Toby was actually helping Ryan with his case, because Ryan wanted to apply. But I loved the scene where he first shared with him, that was really one of Ryan's kind moments. *rewatched the scene yesterday* He caught Beecher crying (after he had to lick Vern's boots) and then was all like "It's okay, I cry sometimes too! You'd be crazy not to", awww.

Yes, I loved seeing the human sides of the characters. Especially Adebisi and Vern seem like complete monsters, but they aren't. I really liked the scene where they were contributing money for Bob's sick grandson and practically everyone gave him something, Said and the Muslim (of course), Ryan because he's had cancer too, Vern (since the father fought in Vietnam *lol* ) , ...
Adebisi and Schibetta would've been really interesting to see, the biggest baddest guy in Oz and the biggest woobie I remember the scene in the gym where the Aryans attack Pancamo and Schibetta's in the middle, looking frightened, and disappearing through some door while everyone thought, that was so cute (and in his defense, that was right after he came back from psyche ward the first time xD)

Vern is definitely an interesting character--he's certainly one I "love to hate." He's a bad, bad guy but he's so subtle about it sometimes. Like the way he got Beecher into his pod, or the way he tempted Beecher with getting to see Keller by delivering the mail. Vern is very good at getting what he wants.

With Vern, I think it's definitely the actor that makes him so "likeable" and interesting! Similar to Ryan, they both started out as completely unsympathetic characters, but you came to like them over the series.
I know, the way he got Beecher to move into his pod was so creepy and good! Loved how Vern actually pretended he was doing Beecher a great favor (when Beecher changed his mind and wanted to trade Gunzel in), when he had it all planned.

Poor Toby--yeah, I think Vern knew exactly how to get him where he wanted him. I remember thinking, gee, he seems like a nice old guy when he sat with Beecher at breakfast that first day. And then Toby was so happy to be moving into his cell, and he smiled as Vern showed him his tattoos... and then got frightened very, very quickly when Vern talked about branding him himself!

That was really freaky, poor Toby. I remember his face, all happy and humorous about Vern's tattoos and that he's not a Jew, he doesn't even like Barbara Streisand (?) and then... realization! I wonder how it would've been if Beecher had actually got a nice podmate like Augustus or Said and a nice sponsor. He really needed help but Dino was the wrong person to help him get used to Em City...

Well, Keller said Vern protected him from some black guy in jail, so I imagine it was somewhat similar to the situation with Beecher and Adebisi, though I imagine he helped Chris out in a fight rather than out of a sexual situation like with Beecher and Adebisi. And while Toby was obviously miserable--which seemed to only excite Schillinger more--I imagine Chris was more of a partner--kind of like Robson, without being an Aryan ass. What do you think?

I agree, I think Vern actually helped him out big time... because Keller seems like someone who could take care of himself and didn't take shit form others (he could've dealt with sexual advances probably), but when he's new and so young he must've been a great target. Maybe the black guy was actually like Adebisi, one of the most powerful prisoners and leader of a group or something? Plus, if Keller still owes him after all those years it must've been something serious (because he was already repaying him in Lardner too, wasn't he?). The way they treat each other in Oz, I'd bet they were more like partners. Or maybe Keller *was* his underling/prag, but I'm sure there was always more to it.

OMG, that's hilarious! Well, Keller sure seemed happy sodomizing Beecher.



I saw that on YouTube--insanely hot!

*nod nod* I wish there were more shows where Oz characters are on together XD

Interesting take on what happened between them. I guess we never really saw Adebisi in a real relationship to know how he'd behave.



Ha, yeah! I wrote that late at night before going to bed. I did watch an episode though...

Yeah, that'd be interesting. I wonder if he even had a real, serious relationship. We know nothing about his family situation, either, he is one of the few important inmates that we never see getting visitors etc. Do you watch Lost? It's so funny, because he plays a pretty wise and reasonable guy and in flashbacks you see what kind of a gangster life he led, totally reminded me of Adebisi then (and naturally I had to wonder if Adebisi would behave like Mr Eko in Lost when he's "normal" too)
I wonder how Adebisi would've turned out if they hadn't killed that African guy.

Which episode was it? :3

Oh no! I hope none of my favs die. Stay away from Beecher, Keller, Ryan and Said, Oz grim reapers!

D: I think in the long run, only a few of the characters I wanted to survive really made it >.< The stupidest death in season 6 is yet to come...

I guess I can see Keller switching it up with other people now and then, but not so much Beecher. I think Keller likes seducing people, but he definitely seemed to have a power and control fixation on Beecher. He wanted to have Beecher, wanted to know Beecher would submit to him in any situation--whether it was to let Keller tell him what to do or touch him possessively (not to mention sexually) in front of the other prisoners. Beecher would play hard to get, but at the end of the day he did submit to Keller--he gave in at the end of season three, and he let Keller take the blame for the hit on Hank. A big draw for Keller with Beecher seemed to be about possessing and controlling him.



I did think it was interesting and telling that Keller never tried to rape Beecher. He easily could have overpowered Beecher in season three, despite Beecher's tough attitude. That was what convinced me he does love Beecher, but I do think "owning" Beecher and having Beecher submit completely to him was part of his kick.

Hmmh... Well, I still think their relationship was more or less balanced (with Keller being more dominant, but not too extreme), but we'll never know for sure. I remember that someone asked Tom Fontana why there wasn't any consensual sex scene and he claimed that it wouldn't fit to the harsh theme of Oz, but that they could call Chris Meloni and Lee Tergesen to shoot again, they would gladly act one out IMO, part of why Keller wants to control him so badly is because that's his own way of being needy, just like his jealousy and love messages are different than most It's ironic, but I'm not sure if Keller would make it on the outside world, it just seems to me that he's bound to do something criminal again, like killing some random guy he's jealous at XD

Vern is definitely about power and control, which is why he got off so much on having Beecher in season one. It got boring for him once he'd completely broken Beecher down... and yet, clearly no one after presented nearly as much of a challenge. He was done with Gunzel in like two episodes!

Adebisi was a total hedonist--but even he recognized he was out of control in season four. And once he had free rein, he realized he still wasn't happy.

I don't think it was because Beecher was broken (not only at least), but mainly because he was always high. Since Vern hates drugs and warned him repeatedly not to take them... but what could he do to stop it besides casting him out, so he wouldn't have to deal with it? But yeah, Beecher held out way longer than Gunzel.

Yeah, that was sad in its own way. Especially how he felt betrayed by Said when the two had come to an mutual understanding at first. I loved Keller and Ryan, they went like: K: Adebisi and Said, hand in hand.
R: It's the end of the fucking universe.

I did watch episode seven of the fifth season! Another good entry. Rivera did end up taking the dog Alvarez trained. I'm glad that storyline ended up having a happy ending--so few in Oz do.

Ah, yes ^^ I found that very cute. When I look back, it seems like Miguel is one of the characters who always get it bad, he's the master of shanking and being shanked + the master of solitary!

Robson found out his gums were from a black guy and Vern and the brotherhood excommunicated him! Sad for Robson, though he's such an ass. It was interesting to see that there is a "higher authority" in the brotherhood than Vern--I never really thought of it extending outside of prison before, but obviously, of course it does.

There's a scene to come, where another authority tells Vern off. It's interesting to see this side of the story. Yeah, IF someone deserves something like this, it's totally Robson. It's not pretty, but I can't say I feel really sorry for him. But Vern must really appreciate Robson when he had so many doubts about casting him out.

Beecher, being the bleeding heart he is, tries to get Gunzel help but Gunzel won't talk to Sister Pete. It just really is hard to feel bad for this guy, even in the wake of his death--which really, how stupid was he for trying to climb the fence? I don't believe in Glynn's idea of rape as a leveling tool, but at the same time, I can't feel bad for a rapist who gets raped. I know this is going to eat away at Beecher though. I can't figure out why Said cares, save for the fact that he's worried about what it will do to Beecher. I have a feeling telling Beecher to stay away from Keller isn't going to do much good though.

Yeah, I wonder how they convinced Gunzel to climb the fence o_O; "We'll help you to escape! And ... we'll... stand here and watch while you get out!" Right, Gunzel and Robson only got what was coming at them. It's poor Schibetta and especially Cyril who were total victims to the Aryans =_= I always feel bad for Cyril, I'm sure he wouldn't hurt a fly intentionally, but the constant provocation and when someone's trying to hurt Ryan...
Said is strictly against homosexuality, I think that's one of the reasons why he didn't want Beecher to do it. And I do think that he genuinely cares and didn't want him to cast Adam out, similar to how he didn't want Keane to cast his brother out at the very beginning (even though his brother's a fag etc)

Ryan now thinks Cyril is better off getting executed? Uh, no, I don't buy that. I hope he changes his mind about the appeal/clemency before Cyril ends up getting sentenced to death!

So did the COs kill Ja or just beat him up? ANd will Redding find out Poet gave Augustus the drugs? Anyway, overall, a good episode. Only one more to go in the fifth season!

I didn't really buy that, too. He always fought for Cyril and then he was suddenly okay to let him go because he wouldn't have to suffer? I'm sure Cyril is happier to stay with Ryan, he wouldn't even understand that he has to die.

Who's Ja again? XD Yeah, I felt sorry for that guy they poisoned who was innocent after all!

OMG, I just had to shorten the post because it was over the characters maximum

 

[DevilEyes]

^ Uh, stillarium... about the season 5 ending... that was a bit too spoilery, you might want to edit that since Top41 hasn't seen the season 5 finale yet!

 

[stillarium]

^ Uh, stillarium... about the season 5 ending... that was a bit too spoilery, you might want to edit that since Top41 hasn't seen the season 5 finale yet!

Yeah, I just noticed she's still at S5E7 and already edited it ^^

 

[DevilEyes]

Maybe there wasn't an opportunity? Miguel will get a male love interest during the end though I was surprised, when I looked on wikipedia at Chucky Pancamo's article it said that he had raped Robson and had some affair (?) with Torquemada (a guy who'll appear during season 6). I don't remember that at all!! And I'm sure he didn't have anything with Robson, or did he? Please tell me if you see otherwise in the upcoming episodes

Wikipedia can be full of nonsense - for a while, usually someone else is there to soon remove the nonsense someone else has posted. None of this ever happened.

I thought it was very simple, at least when Italians are concerned. I don't know about the Latinos, but the Italian mafia guys have a very strong taboo against any kind of homosexuality, a lot more so than the Aryans or Bikers or Homeboys, whose reasoning is more along the lines of "you're not gay if you're the top". At least that's what every single mafia film and show ever made would have us believe. Remember when Chris in The Sopranos told that story about the mafia guy who got his dick sucked by a hot "chick" who turned out to be a guy in drag? According to the story, the mafia guy was so shocked and humiliated that, as a revenge, he messed up the drag queen very badly, left her disfigured.

Maybe it's a Catholic thing.

Well, Keller said Vern protected him from some black guy in jail, so I imagine it was somewhat similar to the situation with Beecher and Adebisi, though I imagine he helped Chris out in a fight rather than out of a sexual situation like with Beecher and Adebisi. And while Toby was obviously miserable--which seemed to only excite Schillinger more--I imagine Chris was more of a partner--kind of like Robson, without being an Aryan ass. What do you think?

I agree, I think Vern actually helped him out big time... because Keller seems like someone who could take care of himself and didn't take shit form others (he could've dealt with sexual advances probably), but when he's new and so young he must've been a great target. Maybe the black guy was actually like Adebisi, one of the most powerful prisoners and leader of a group or something? Plus, if Keller still owes him after all those years it must've been something serious (because he was already repaying him in Lardner too, wasn't he?). The way they treat each other in Oz, I'd bet they were more like partners. Or maybe Keller *was* his underling/prag, but I'm sure there was always more to it.

But he was still a victim, and it was still abuse, wasn't it? He just didn't want to think of himself as a victim, so he pretended that Schillinger was not abusing him and that it was all OK, and told himself that he was just manipulating Schillinger. But, I don't think it was OK for him, and throughout the show, you get to see that Keller hates Schillinger almost as much as Beecher does... maybe even more. I think that, deep down, Keller admires Beecher for being able to stand up against Schillinger. At the first glance, Keller seems to be the strong one, and Beecher the weak one, but behind all that bluster, Keller is actually even needier than Beecher - he needs Beecher more than Beecher needs him, and he is less able to let go and go on without him - and there's a lot of self-loathing there as well. Keller thinks of himself as the scum of the Earth, the lowest of the low, and is obsessed with making people love him unconditionally despite that - in a way, he relies on other people's feelings as the only way to prove his own worth. Keller seems to have never had a family and was probably always a street punk using his resourcefulness and charm and doing everything he had to to survive, and what happened with him and Vern probably messed him up even more. While Beecher felt like a victim, Keller probably felt like... a whore, literally and metaphorically.

Yeah, that'd be interesting. I wonder if he even had a real, serious relationship. We know nothing about his family situation, either, he is one of the few important inmates that we never see getting visitors etc.

Didn't Adebisi mention an ex-wife at some point?

He was Nigerian do we know if he came to US or if his parents did? His accent was too strong for someone who grew up in USA, so I think the former? Maybe most of his family was not even in the country.

 

[Lord Garth]

^ In the second season, Adebisi tells Jara he's been in America for 15 years.

 

[stillarium]

Wikipedia can be full of nonsense - for a while, usually someone else is there to soon remove the nonsense someone else has posted. None of this ever happened.

Yeah, I was really confused, but not sure, because towards the end of the show I wasn't watching that concentrated anymore... Guess it has been a while since somebody checked up on that article, maybe that's the reason the nonsense hasn't been corrected I remembered that particularly Pancamo was all macho and homophobic.

I thought it was very simple, at least when Italians are concerned. I don't know about the Latinos, but the Italian mafia guys have a very strong taboo against any kind of homosexuality, a lot more so than the Aryans or Bikers or Homeboys, whose reasoning is more along the lines of "you're not gay if you're the top". At least that's what every single mafia film and show ever made would have us believe. Remember when Chris in The Sopranos told that story about the mafia guy who got his dick sucked by a hot "chick" who turned out to be a guy in drag? According to the story, the mafia guy was so shocked and humiliated that, as a revenge, he messed up the drag queen very badly, left her disfigured.

Maybe it's a Catholic thing.

Hmh, yeah, I knew they had that attitude, but I didn't know if it was stronger than the Aryans and Bikers. I mean, the Aryans have proved throughout history that they're very extreme against homosexuals as well.

Wow, I didn't remember that story, but now that you mention it I can recall it vaguely...

But he was still a victim, and it was still abuse, wasn't it? He just didn't want to think of himself as a victim, so he pretended that Schillinger was not abusing him and that it was all OK, and told himself that he was just manipulating Schillinger. But, I don't think it was OK for him, and throughout the show, you get to see that Keller hates Schillinger almost as much as Beecher does... maybe even more. I think that, deep down, Keller admires Beecher for being able to stand up against Schillinger. At the first glance, Keller seems to be the strong one, and Beecher the weak one, but behind all that bluster, Keller is actually even needier than Beecher - he needs Beecher more than Beecher needs him, and he is less able to let go and go on without him - and there's a lot of self-loathing there as well. Keller thinks of himself as the scum of the Earth, the lowest of the low, and is obsessed with making people love him unconditionally despite that - in a way, he relies on other people's feelings as the only way to prove his own worth. Keller seems to have never had a family and was probably always a street punk using his resourcefulness and charm and doing everything he had to to survive, and what happened with him and Vern probably messed him up even more. While Beecher felt like a victim, Keller probably felt like... a whore, literally and metaphorically.

That's a very interesting point... I also noticed the self-loathing in Chris to the point where he killed people because he wanted to kill that part of him with them. And of course his extreme jealous measures to ensure that somebody (especially Toby) stays with him and belongs to him. I think that he never saw himself as a victim, especially that "I let him think he was in control" must've been something he told himself to believe in. He really put up a strong front, that's why I felt bad for him when he was actually weak and rejected sometimes, despite all the bad thing he's done... it's more or less in his nature needing to be loved almost as much as the killer instinct is in him, I guess. But I think I never got the impression that he really hated Schillinger or maybe that's because he hid it well. He was like a chameleon, all buddy-buddy with him one second and then shanking him the next, I was never sure how he actually thought of him or if he f.e. belonged to his Aryan Brotherhood in Lardner.

Didn't Adebisi mention an ex-wife at some point?

He was Nigerian do we know if he came to US or if his parents did? His accent was too strong for someone who grew up in USA, so I think the former? Maybe most of his family was not even in the country.

Did he? I don't remember it at all, but quite possible of course.

I wonder what exactly his history was that Jara had so much effect on him. I remember that I thought they knew each other from before, but that wasn't even the case and nonetheless he and Said were probably the ones who influenced him the most throughout the series.

 

[Top41]

So much to discuss... this might be two posts!

^ Oh my - the season 5 finale - if I remember correctly, that one ends on a big moment as well... kind of setting the stage for S6...

Season 5's finale is the biggest "Well, fuck, what happens now?" moments I've ever seen. And I loved season 6's answer to that question.

Oh yeah, the ending of season 5 is sad =(

I just watched the season five finale, and uh yeah... really sad! Augustus is dead?? Both Keller and Cyril are on death row?? I don't remember being this depressed by an episode since the one where Beecher was wailing after getting his kid's hand in the mail. What a downer. What's going to happen to Augustus's narrations now? Will someone else take them over? I think that was what really hit home--having the episode end without some comment from him... just the empty chair in the empty box.

Nice to see Vern finally held accountable for the rapes he commits and put in solitary. A little too late as far as Gunzel is concerned, but I think it was therapeutic for Beecher to accuse Vern of rape and see some consequences, even if it wasn't for his own rapes.

Loved, loved, loved the conversation between Beecher and Said about love. I liked seeing Beecher defend his feelings for Keller--in that earnest, somewhat naive and innocent Beecher way--and also point out the platonic love that Said and he have for each other. I think it was important for Said to see that shanking Schillinger and Robson wasn't an act of Adebisi-fueled hate/rage, but an act of love for Beecher and a desire to protect him.

And I was happy to see Beecher and Keller reunited, even if it was briefly. I really hope that Keller doesn't end up getting executed. Their kiss was really sweet--I did love the way Keller hesitated before turning and then walked over to Beecher, put his hand on his and kissed him.

I did feel bad for Alvarez when the parole board guy was so mean to him. I do feel like he's been sincere this season in trying to change, as opposed to before when he was just feeling sorry for himself. At the same time, he probably should have had a better answer for the parole board guy than to haul off and try to hit him.

Robson cutting out his own gums was . The guy is whacked. It does seem sucky for him being kicked out of the brotherhood, and it looks like he'll be replaced by this Cutler guy. Unless Cutler ends up on death row for killing Augustus, which he should!

I felt bad for Omar, too, when he confessed that he tried to kill Cutler and saved him--and got sent to solitary anyway. I felt like that was just part of McManus's self-flagellation and wasn't really fair.

I'm really still pretty shocked and very curious as to how next season will be structured. I hope to watch an episode or two today! I'm also going to check out the deleted scenes on the season five set.

Yes and there was someone immediately after the Aryans (maybe he was an Aryan, too?), the one Richie pushed away and accidentally killed. And I remember that when Mukada asked if he had been raped, he said "Yeah, sure. But that's not why I'm here). Seemed to be a pretty common occurence. =/

Oh, yeah, I do remember that! It's interesting to see how the men deal with rape in different ways. Some seem to put it aside or just ignore it to cope, like Richie or Kenny. Whereas others, like Beecher and Schibetta and Gunzel, fall apart much more openly.

Haha, wasn't it Nat? Nappa was all like "short for Nathan?" "No, shortform for Natalie"
Yes, he wanted to see if AIDS or the execution would get him first. Loved how he died peacefully in his sleep and Sister Pete finished painting his nails

Right, Nat! I liked him, and thought the scene where Sister Pete did his nails was very touching.

Maybe there wasn't an opportunity? Miguel will get a male love interest during the end though I was surprised, when I looked on wikipedia at Chucky Pancamo's article it said that he had raped Robson and had some affair (?) with Torquemada (a guy who'll appear during season 6). I don't remember that at all!! And I'm sure he didn't have anything with Robson, or did he? Please tell me if you see otherwise in the upcoming episodes

I will! I can see Alvarez getting a boyfriend. He seems like he'd want someone to love. I guess we'll see--I'm going to start season six today I hope!

Yes... Whittlesey got big bonus points during that, I remember she spoke to him that prison is hard etc and convinced him that he should call his wife and let her visit him. I think I'd hide out in prison, too. It's funny, I was thinking "Why can't they get along and just let each other be in peace?" but they probably wouldn't be criminals if they were able to do that

Yeah, I remember thinking that at that point, too. And I really liked the scene where Whittlesey talked to Beecher after he'd been curled up in bed for days on end. I remember thinking she had to know what had happened to him, but maybe not... I mean, theoretically it's entirely possible that a rich, successful lawyer who got sent to jail would be depressed whether he got raped or not.

Me too, I was positively surprised. It's a strange thought if you wonder how it would've went if Beecher hadn't teased Schillinger and actually wanted genuinely to help, maybe Schillinger would've even been grateful later on. You could tell he was honestly happy that Andrew had quit drugs.

Totally--that was what was so interesting. Beecher didn't do anything to Andy himself, and in fact was a really good influence on him. It was Beecher whispering poison into Schillinger's ear, trying to get him to think there was something nefarious going on that caused Schillinger to react the way he did. I think maybe there could have been peace at that point if Beecher hadn't said those things to Schillinger... but at the same time, Beecher was so angry and hurt about what Schillinger and Keller had done to him that you can see why he wasn't at the point where he wanted to make peace, or do anything but lash out at Schillinger in any way he could.

It was more an offhand remark where he mentioned that he fucked Keller, I think it had something to do with telling his parents how he felt about another man.

Yeah, I think that's probably just a way of putting it--it would have sounded awkward if he'd said to them, "Keller fucks me" or something like that. A girl might make a comment, "I fucked him," too.

I think with Keller, it's really hard to say if he thought of someone as equal at all. He manipulated practically everyone, but that doesn't necessarily mean he felt he was better than them. I have the feeling he saw f.e. Ryan as equal, but that wouldn't have stopped him from going against him.

Yeah, that was a very different kind of relationship, though. Ryan was a buddy--Beecher is Keller's "girlfriend" for lack of a better term. I think Mondo even asked Keller if he minded if he fucked his "girlfriend Beecher." I think Keller definitely looked at Beecher as the weaker of the two--not in a bad way most of the time, but he definitely saw himself as the protector.

Keller seemed to have an issue with sex with guys, since aside from Beecher, he killed every other guy he had sex with. Like he said, he did that because he hated himself, the part of himself that wanted to be with them. Obviously something was really different with Beecher--I think Keller actually likes who he is with Beecher. Part of that is because of who Toby is--a sweet, caring, genuinely good person--and part of that is because Keller can actually be a provider/caretaker for someone in a way he never has before. The only person Keller has ever taken care of before now seems to be himself. Protecting and caring for Beecher gives him a purpose, it seems.

Totally random, cute story: I read somewhere that Chris Meloni said that if Keller could write a happy ending for him and Beecher, he would have them both escape Oz and go into hiding. Keller would run a laundromat and Beecher would be a stay-at-home wife. How cute is that?

Yes, wasn't this also an issue at the beginning? I think Sister Pete told Toby that he saw himself as a victim, but the victims were actually the young girl and her family.

I remember that, yeah, and feeling that was kind right, but also kind of off. On one hand, absolutely, Beecher shouldn't be forgetting about Kathy Rockwell. But on the other, he very much was a victim, and was being abused. I wasn't so crazy about Sister Pete's solution--I think it put Kathy's mother through needless agony (though maybe she needed that release, who knows) and it just made Beecher feel worse about himself. Though I guess it did give him the impetus to fight back against Vern, so maybe it was a good thing.

I once read a fanfic from Vern's POV where he claimed that Beecher didn't appreciate being his prag at all and didn't realize that he could have had it worse: He didn't share him and he was under his protection. That sounds messed up, but totally fitting to Vern's logic and he's got a point somewhere

Interesting--I'd love to read that story! In some ways Vern did do Beecher some good in those first few months--I guess Beecher wasn't constantly getting raped by anyone and everyone (and subsequent seasons prove that a lot of people wanted a piece of Beecher). I think it was the psychological abuse that was even more damaging to Beecher than the rapes. Schillinger seemed to take real pleasure in degrading Beecher--making him eat the law book pages, dressing him up as a woman, forcing him to give him kisses and say "I love you"--and that's what I think was what drove him to drugs and insanity. Not to diminish the significance of the rapes--obviously that was taking a toll on Beecher, too--but I think it was the fact that he literally had no escape and Vern seemed intent on breaking him/stripping away his identity that really broke him down.

Keller is really tough... I think his charming way makes everyone forget sometimes, but he is probably the one who we saw killing the most inmates by himself (Ryan was only manipulating others mostly), plus he was a serial killer before and before that he got into Lardner when he was only 17. No wonder he's good as adapting, he wouldn't have made it otherwise.

It is funny, during his sweet moments with Beecher, I totally forget that he's a serial killer. It's always interesting to see the ease with which Keller kills--you can tell he just doesn't feel any remorse. And yet then you see him with Beecher and he's just so earnest and adoring and sincere. Such an interesting contrast.

Prison Break is really nothing compared to Oz I remember reading someone feeling that T-Bag's like Keller + Schillinger...

I don't think I could go back and watch Prison Break after this, honestly. I remember being entertained by the show in the first season (though I quickly lost interest in the second) but I didn't connect with any of the characters the way I do on Oz. I did like T-Bag though.

Yes, I think he was hardly ever REALLY crazy (probably when he took the dump on Vern's face... irks!). But I'm not sure if he really calculated it when he told Hill or if he was just really, really gleeful

Oh yeah, definitely. I just think his comments to Augustus showed that he obviously had a plan--a plan that way too well-thought out and clever to be thought of by someone who was truly crazy.

It's also telling to me that Beecher never got sent to the psych ward, even for an evaluation, which tells me he kept his displays of crazy mostly to the other inmates and didn't act that way around the COs.

He was really calculating about that one. I wonder if he always has a plan in my mind when he tries to charm someone or if he just does it first automatically and thinks about what advantages it would grant him afterwards I loved one scene where he was flirting with Howell and the next second when Sister Pete came in he was all flirty towards her XD

I think with Sister Pete he had a definite agenda: Keller's whole being was focused on getting Toby back in season three. But in other scenes it definitely seems like he charms people because he can. He wants to see if he can get them under his spell. It makes me wonder what it is that makes Toby different--Keller seems to tire of people once he realizes he can charm them. But not Toby--I wonder if it's that Toby genuinely does love him. But I would think the women Keller married did, too... so I don't know. What do you think?

Yeah, the fandom is dusty I saw a community with fic exchanges, but it's always around Christmas =( So I missed it and now it's almost a year until there's one again. I saw that there are still a few contributions now and then, but they are almost always B / K. At first, I would've been happy to just find a place to discuss the series, though. So I'm glad I found your thread

I'm glad you did, too! I love talking about this show, and really picking it apart, because the characters and their stories are so interesting. Some shows I watch and I'm like, OK, that was fun and then forget about it, but Oz I want to talk about!!

Yeah, in the end Keller always seemed to trust Toby more than the others. There are two horrible things that he does later on, though We'll have to discuss those too! XD

Oh no, tell me he doesn't hurt Toby! I guess I can see it happening, if Toby tried to break up with him.

Hmmh... I don't really remember him threatening Ryan during the news thing. I think Ryan was the one who wanted to be paid in exchange for info? XD

Toby was dropping hints to the news people about Ryan and Keller killing the Shemin and Brown. Very, very oblique ones, but enough to get Ryan worried and talking about shutting Toby up. And that naturally made Keller protective, and he told Ryan to leave Toby alone. But then I think Keller turned around and went to Toby and told him not to talk about them (not really in a threatening way, or at least in a different threatening way, lol) and their relationship.

I think I would have to bet on Keller. Ryan is really good at manipulating, but Keller's the better killer. Guess it depends on if they were facing each other directly or not.

Yeah, me, too, probably. And I think if Toby was in jeopardy, Keller could take just about anyone out.

Toby was actually helping Ryan with his case, because Ryan wanted to apply. But I loved the scene where he first shared with him, that was really one of Ryan's kind moments. *rewatched the scene yesterday* He caught Beecher crying (after he had to lick Vern's boots) and then was all like "It's okay, I cry sometimes too! You'd be crazy not to", awww.

I did think that was very sweet! There is something about Toby that does make other people protective of him.

Yes, I loved seeing the human sides of the characters. Especially Adebisi and Vern seem like complete monsters, but they aren't. I really liked the scene where they were contributing money for Bob's sick grandson and practically everyone gave him something, Said and the Muslim (of course), Ryan because he's had cancer too, Vern (since the father fought in Vietnam *lol* ) , ...

I think that's what makes the show so great, because the characters are realistic people. They're three-dimensional. Everyone has some redeeming qualities. I loved Adebisi's quote about having to be human, and also how he genuinely respected Said. I loved that Vern did care for his sons and granddaughter. And that Keller really does love Beecher. They might do some horrible, terrible things, but like anyone they have people they care about.

Adebisi and Schibetta would've been really interesting to see, the biggest baddest guy in Oz and the biggest woobie I remember the scene in the gym where the Aryans attack Pancamo and Schibetta's in the middle, looking frightened, and disappearing through some door while everyone thought, that was so cute (and in his defense, that was right after he came back from psyche ward the first time xD)

I think Schibetta was totally overwhelmed in that moment, and realized he was in over his head. The rest had just been posturing, but once Adebisi raped him, he lost the ability to hide behind that tough guy attitude. And the Sicilians kind of abandoned him. I think Schibetta would have been better off with the others--forming an alliance with Ryan or Beecher or even getting himself a boyfriend like Keller. He needed someone to look out for him, and because the Italians pretty much dumped him, it wasn't going to be them.

 

[Top41]

Uh, yeah... definitely two posts. Sorry! Just so much to discuss and talk about here.

With Vern, I think it's definitely the actor that makes him so "likeable" and interesting! Similar to Ryan, they both started out as completely unsympathetic characters, but you came to like them over the series.
I know, the way he got Beecher to move into his pod was so creepy and good! Loved how Vern actually pretended he was doing Beecher a great favor (when Beecher changed his mind and wanted to trade Gunzel in), when he had it all planned.

Vern was incredibly good at being manipulative when he wanted to be! That's why I think he was able to get away with as much as he did--to the COs, he seemed like a pretty sincere, respectful guy. I remember how he asked Beecher if he was okay in the second episode when Diane was checking up on him. You'd never think he'd been branding and raping Beecher the night before.

That was really freaky, poor Toby. I remember his face, all happy and humorous about Vern's tattoos and that he's not a Jew, he doesn't even like Barbara Streisand (?) and then... realization! I wonder how it would've been if Beecher had actually got a nice podmate like Augustus or Said and a nice sponsor. He really needed help but Dino was the wrong person to help him get used to Em City...

I wonder, too. I don't think Beecher would have been as tough, and I certainly think someone would have gotten him alone and raped him pretty quickly. What you brought up earlier, about Schillinger not passing him around and protecting him, makes me wonder if Beecher would have gotten passed around otherwise. I kind of think he would have definitely been a target. It really is interesting to think about what his experience would have been if he had at least had a safe haven in his pod. I can't help but think that must have been terrible--not even being safe in his own space.

I agree, I think Vern actually helped him out big time... because Keller seems like someone who could take care of himself and didn't take shit form others (he could've dealt with sexual advances probably), but when he's new and so young he must've been a great target. Maybe the black guy was actually like Adebisi, one of the most powerful prisoners and leader of a group or something? Plus, if Keller still owes him after all those years it must've been something serious (because he was already repaying him in Lardner too, wasn't he?). The way they treat each other in Oz, I'd bet they were more like partners. Or maybe Keller *was* his underling/prag, but I'm sure there was always more to it.

It's so hard to picture Keller as a prag! And he and Vern actually seemed to like each other when Keller first came to Oz. I definitely see them as being more like partners, at least after a while. And Vern doesn't really seem to have any sexual interest in Keller, at least so far.

Yeah, that'd be interesting. I wonder if he even had a real, serious relationship. We know nothing about his family situation, either, he is one of the few important inmates that we never see getting visitors etc. Do you watch Lost? It's so funny, because he plays a pretty wise and reasonable guy and in flashbacks you see what kind of a gangster life he led, totally reminded me of Adebisi then (and naturally I had to wonder if Adebisi would behave like Mr Eko in Lost when he's "normal" too)
I wonder how Adebisi would've turned out if they hadn't killed that African guy.

I am a big Lost fan! It's funny, because I saw the guy who played Adebisi as Eko first... and then when I was watching Oz, I was like hey, that's Eko! Adebisi is pretty damn different from Eko, that's for sure...

D: I think in the long run, only a few of the characters I wanted to survive really made it >.< The stupidest death in season 6 is yet to come...

I'm prepared for that, given all the comments here and elsewhere. I know a lot of my favs are probably going to die. There are a lot of characters I'm really attached to, but I think so long as Beecher lives, I won't totally hate the end. Maybe?? I guess we'll see. I'm dying to know which death you think is the stupidest... you'll have to tell me after I watch whatever episode it happens in!

Hmmh... Well, I still think their relationship was more or less balanced (with Keller being more dominant, but not too extreme), but we'll never know for sure. I remember that someone asked Tom Fontana why there wasn't any consensual sex scene and he claimed that it wouldn't fit to the harsh theme of Oz, but that they could call Chris Meloni and Lee Tergesen to shoot again, they would gladly act one out

Oh, I agree completely! And lol, I'm kind of bummed we never see Keller and Beecher going at it, because that would be hot. But also I think it would have been nice to get one sweet sex scene--like the one on New Year's Eve after they kissed in their pod. I would have liked to see their first time, but I guess I can see how it might have felt out of place. Tergesen and Meloni are awesome--I love that they just go for it. They're a big part of what sells that relationship.

IMO, part of why Keller wants to control him so badly is because that's his own way of being needy, just like his jealousy and love messages are different than most It's ironic, but I'm not sure if Keller would make it on the outside world, it just seems to me that he's bound to do something criminal again, like killing some random guy he's jealous at XD

Yeah, I think so, too--it's definitely a part of Keller being needy, and wanting and needing to have Toby. The way he just kills everyone that Toby sleeps with in season four kind of tells me he looks at Toby as his property. And just the way he acts towards Toby--Keller thinks of himself as the one who calls the shots, for both of them. Even with his big act of self-sacrifice in confessing to the hit on Hank--Toby had no say in that. Keller knocked him out and made the decision on his own.

I don't think it was because Beecher was broken (not only at least), but mainly because he was always high. Since Vern hates drugs and warned him repeatedly not to take them... but what could he do to stop it besides casting him out, so he wouldn't have to deal with it? But yeah, Beecher held out way longer than Gunzel.

Oh, good point about the drugs--Vern really seemed to hate Toby doing those. Ironically it was the one thing that Vern couldn't really control about Beecher. I'm kind of surprised Vern never really beat Beecher up, because I thought he threatened to over the drugs. I wonder what stopped him?

Yeah, that was sad in its own way. Especially how he felt betrayed by Said when the two had come to an mutual understanding at first. I loved Keller and Ryan, they went like: K: Adebisi and Said, hand in hand.
R: It's the end of the fucking universe.

There are so many great quotes in the show. That one cracked me up!

There's a scene to come, where another authority tells Vern off. It's interesting to see this side of the story. Yeah, IF someone deserves something like this, it's totally Robson. It's not pretty, but I can't say I feel really sorry for him. But Vern must really appreciate Robson when he had so many doubts about casting him out.

That was one instance where Vern did seem to genuinely feel bad... but not bad enough to stand up to the leader of the brotherhood and not cast Robson out!

Yeah, I wonder how they convinced Gunzel to climb the fence o_O; "We'll help you to escape! And ... we'll... stand here and watch while you get out!" Right, Gunzel and Robson only got what was coming at them. It's poor Schibetta and especially Cyril who were total victims to the Aryans =_= I always feel bad for Cyril, I'm sure he wouldn't hurt a fly intentionally, but the constant provocation and when someone's trying to hurt Ryan...

Gunzel was just being stupid. Maybe we're supposed to think he was just that desperate to get away from Schillinger and the other Aryans? I don't know--hard to feel bad for him though. Schibetta and Cyril were definitely different cases, though. Poor Cyril was a victim of circumstance, and honestly, of Ryan. Ryan should have never had him kill Gloria's husband. If Cyril does end up dying, that is kind of on Ryan.

Said is strictly against homosexuality, I think that's one of the reasons why he didn't want Beecher to do it. And I do think that he genuinely cares and didn't want him to cast Adam out, similar to how he didn't want Keane to cast his brother out at the very beginning (even though his brother's a fag etc)

You're right about Said, but there's a huge difference between Keane's gay brother--who seemed like a decent guy, at least for Oz--and Gunzel, who was just an ass. I think Said didn't want Toby to sell Gunzel out specifically so he could get to see Keller... and I think a big part of that was because Said knew Toby would feel terrible when he saw the consequences. At the same time, I think even if Toby didn't hand Gunzel to the Aryans, he needed him out of his pod--Gunzel was getting really aggressive with and abusive towards Toby. After he knocked Toby down and simulated trying to make Toby give him a blow job, I kind of wondered if the next step would have been for him to rape Toby.

I didn't really buy that, too. He always fought for Cyril and then he was suddenly okay to let him go because he wouldn't have to suffer? I'm sure Cyril is happier to stay with Ryan, he wouldn't even understand that he has to die.

Yeah, that just didn't work for me. Of course, now Ryan has changed his mind and does want to fight for Cyril's life--I just hope it isn't too late.

Who's Ja again? XD Yeah, I felt sorry for that guy they poisoned who was innocent after all!

Ja is the Asian guy Ryan hates. He's the one who got the other Asian guy (can't recall his name at the moment) to attack Ryan and Cyril.

OMG, I just had to shorten the post because it was over the characters maximum

I did, too, last time, but I think this one is going to have to be split into two posts.

I thought it was very simple, at least when Italians are concerned. I don't know about the Latinos, but the Italian mafia guys have a very strong taboo against any kind of homosexuality, a lot more so than the Aryans or Bikers or Homeboys, whose reasoning is more along the lines of "you're not gay if you're the top". At least that's what every single mafia film and show ever made would have us believe. Remember when Chris in The Sopranos told that story about the mafia guy who got his dick sucked by a hot "chick" who turned out to be a guy in drag? According to the story, the mafia guy was so shocked and humiliated that, as a revenge, he messed up the drag queen very badly, left her disfigured.

Maybe it's a Catholic thing.

Interesting--that makes sense.

But he was still a victim, and it was still abuse, wasn't it? He just didn't want to think of himself as a victim, so he pretended that Schillinger was not abusing him and that it was all OK, and told himself that he was just manipulating Schillinger.

Probably, though it's hard to know without having more info about it. I do think part of it was that Keller told himself it was okay so that he wouldn't have to think of himself as a victim, but I definitely got the feeling that his relationship with Vern was very different than Vern's was with Toby, or any of Vern's other boy toys.

But, I don't think it was OK for him, and throughout the show, you get to see that Keller hates Schillinger almost as much as Beecher does... maybe even more.

I have to admit, that puzzles me a bit. In season two, Keller seemed to be on really decent terms with Schillinger--I'm sure part of the friendliness in the gym was an act for Beecher's sake, to really drive the knife in, but he seemed to get along fine with Vern when they were alone. I always got the sense that his rage towards Schillinger was tied into his feelings for Toby, and that it was part of winning Toby back in season three. He ratted on Schillinger for Toby, he shanked Schillinger after Schillinger stabbed Toby, and the one time he really, really lost it with Schillinger was after he got that guy to convince Toby that Keller had his kids kidnapped. A lot of that hatred seemed to stem from a protectiveness of Toby rather than any anger for Schillinger's actions against him personally.

I think that, deep down, Keller admires Beecher for being able to stand up against Schillinger.

Oh, absolutely--and I think part of the appeal for Keller when it comes to Beecher is how strong Beecher can be when he needs to be.

At the first glance, Keller seems to be the strong one, and Beecher the weak one, but behind all that bluster, Keller is actually even needier than Beecher - he needs Beecher more than Beecher needs him, and he is less able to let go and go on without him - and there's a lot of self-loathing there as well. Keller thinks of himself as the scum of the Earth, the lowest of the low, and is obsessed with making people love him unconditionally despite that - in a way, he relies on other people's feelings as the only way to prove his own worth. Keller seems to have never had a family and was probably always a street punk using his resourcefulness and charm and doing everything he had to to survive, and what happened with him and Vern probably messed him up even more. While Beecher felt like a victim, Keller probably felt like... a whore, literally and metaphorically.

Keller's self-loathing is definitely something that's fascinating about him, and definitely ties in with the way he treats people. I do think that's part of Beecher's appeal for him--if someone as good and earnest as Beecher is can love him, maybe he's not all that bad. And yeah, I think at the end of the day Keller needs Beecher more than vice versa. If it were up to Beecher, their relationship would probably be pretty healthy.

Definitely interesting to think of Keller thinking of himself as a whore... certainly he seems to be that in season two when he's sent in specifically to seduce Beecher. I'm not sure whether Keller thinks of himself as a whore, or his conquests that way... interestingly he seems to have the madonna/whore complex with men more than women. He desires them, but once his lust is sated he kills them. At least, everyone but Beecher.

I admit, part of me wonders if he will ever or would ever turn on Beecher.

That's a very interesting point... I also noticed the self-loathing in Chris to the point where he killed people because he wanted to kill that part of him with them. And of course his extreme jealous measures to ensure that somebody (especially Toby) stays with him and belongs to him. I think that he never saw himself as a victim, especially that "I let him think he was in control" must've been something he told himself to believe in. He really put up a strong front, that's why I felt bad for him when he was actually weak and rejected sometimes, despite all the bad thing he's done... it's more or less in his nature needing to be loved almost as much as the killer instinct is in him, I guess.

I guess that's part of why I see Keller as having as big a power kink as Schillinger does--it just manifests itself differently. He likes to see who he can charm into falling under his spell. With Beecher it obviously goes far beyond that. With season three it was about winning him back, but then in season four it seems to be all about possessing Toby. I think in trying to make Toby submit to him, Keller thought he was making a normal life for them in Oz in a way. Twisted, sure, but coming back to that madonna/whore complex, he thought he could put Toby up on a pedestal and make all of his decisions for him... and keep him safe that way. I think that's why he got so frustrated with Toby when he went against his "order"--Toby thought he was helping them, and in Keller's eyes, he was trying to do Keller's job and going about it in the wrong way.

But I think I never got the impression that he really hated Schillinger or maybe that's because he hid it well. He was like a chameleon, all buddy-buddy with him one second and then shanking him the next, I was never sure how he actually thought of him or if he f.e. belonged to his Aryan Brotherhood in Lardner.

Yeah, I kind of doubt Keller was an Aryan in Lardner. Another thing that tells me he and Schillinger were more equals is that he was obviously never branded the way Beecher was.

Did he? I don't remember it at all, but quite possible of course.

I wonder what exactly his history was that Jara had so much effect on him. I remember that I thought they knew each other from before, but that wasn't even the case and nonetheless he and Said were probably the ones who influenced him the most throughout the series.

It was so interesting that Adebisi chose pious men--men who actually stood for and believed in something--as the men he looked up to. I think that said a lot about what was lacking in his own life.

 

[stillarium]

Woow, I'll try to keep it short xD

The thing with the kid's hand was awful! Luckily, I never watched with a long pause, so the only real downer ending I got to wonder about was the end of the series. I think I didn't pause between the end of season 5 and the start of season 6.

Loved the conversations between Beecher and Said, too. Beecher has really some points about the things he says to Said, about Adebisi etc., even if Said doesn't want to hear it sometimes since accepting the aggravating part inside himself conflicts with his non-violent belief.

The B/K scene was so perfect! How long it was built up and how Chris hesitated before turning around, how they just kissed without further words...

Yes, poor Alvarez. Actually all the good guys believe in him (except for the Warden); McManus, Mukada, even the woman from the dog training project. But if you list his crimes, then he really sounds bad (cutting someone's eyes out, shanking etc)

I couldn't watch Robson cutting it out, definitely the worst scene for me in Oz (though there were plenty of others we've discussed already, like the cruxification or the butchered Muslim).
It wasn't Cutler who killed Augustus AFAIR!

Yes, I felt sorry for Omar, too. No matter how annoying he is, you can tell that he has a good heart and the way he tried to save Said into talking Cutler out of it was just... aw. I always feel bad when people try to tempt him into doing drugs or smuggling, any bad things whatsoever. He's so easily influenced.

Oh, you gotta tell me what's on the deleted scenes! ^^ I've seen one on youtube where Mukada and Sister Pete deliver christmas presents That was awesome (but I don't remember the season). And also a deleted scene each with Beecher, Sister Pete and Keller, Sister Pete.

"Whereas others, like Beecher and Schibetta and Gunzel, fall apart much more openly."
Adebisi / Kenny still seems so abstract to me! Even though it was so obvious I wasn't sure about if Adebisi raped him until of course everyone said so. I agree, it's interesting to see how different people react. Some are just fitter for prison than others.

I always saw Alvarez as very very straight... I think in the end Said and Ryan are the only main inmates without any homosexual encounters, though (and maybe Augustus if we count him as main cast).

I'm not sure if Whittlesey knew about Beecher's rape and abuse, but it wasn't very hard to put two and two together I guess. Also, I think most COs knew what a scumbag Vern is, but they can't prove the deeds he's done... and to most COs the inmates are like animals anyway.

Beecher definitely had every right to mess with Vern after what he did to him, but it's still sad from an objective POV that they just kept fighting with each other, they wouldn't have to lose one / two sons if it weren't for their awful fights.

"Yeah, I think that's probably just a way of putting it--it would have sounded awkward if he'd said to them, "Keller fucks me" or something like that. A girl might make a comment, "I fucked him," too."
I know, I considered that, but I just like to think it wasn't so one-sided.


"I think Mondo even asked Keller if he minded if he fucked his "girlfriend Beecher." "

He did! It's so funny to me how everyone knows that B / K have a real thing going on and talk about it

"Totally random, cute story: I read somewhere that Chris Meloni said that if Keller could write a happy ending for him and Beecher, he would have them both escape Oz and go into hiding. Keller would run a laundromat and Beecher would be a stay-at-home wife. How cute is that? "

OMG, that's sooo cute, the story made me totally grin. Laundromat... how random, but genius!

Yes, the interaction with Beecher and Kathy's mother probably made everything worse for both parties, but I think such encounters are important. The first one between Rivera, his wife and Alvarez also went horribly wrong... but I guess it's good when you realize how the other party also suffers.

Yes, Beecher didn't seem very fazed about the sexual abuse later on, like you said, he stripped without a second thought, etc... the psychological abuse was definitely worse, I agree (of course I don't want to minimize the other aspect, but you get what I mean I think )

" Not to diminish the significance of the rapes--obviously that was taking a toll on Beecher, too--but I think it was the fact that he literally had no escape and Vern seemed intent on breaking him/stripping away his identity that really broke him down." <- there, I couldn't have said it better! XD

"It is funny, during his sweet moments with Beecher, I totally forget that he's a serial killer. It's always interesting to see the ease with which Keller kills--you can tell he just doesn't feel any remorse. And yet then you see him with Beecher and he's just so earnest and adoring and sincere. Such an interesting contrast."

It is an interesting contrast. I was already spoilered that he's a serial killer, I think I would've been surprised otherwise. His really dangerous and obsessed side only comes out a bit later.

Now that I know Oz, Prison Break seems pretty harmless / inferior to me, too. I did like the first season very much, the story was thrilling, but it went down after season 2, season 4 is just ridiculous IMO. (I'm still not finished, only a few missing episodes, but no motivation to watch...)
I mean, if one just compares Ryan / Gloria and Michael / Sara... The first one seems so much more interesting, the second is pretty clichéd, they just fall in love and that's it.
T-Bag's really interesting, the actor is in Heroes now too

Now that you mention it, it's really strange Toby never got sent into psyche ward. I wonder how they decide things like that. After Schibetta's second rape Sister Pete sent him immediately to psyche ward without even talking to him. Given his previous breakdown, that may have been justified, but it seemed a bit strange to me. Sister Pete and Toby were friendly with each other though, I guess she knew that he isn't crazy enough for psyche ward.

"I think with Sister Pete he had a definite agenda: Keller's whole being was focused on getting Toby back in season three. But in other scenes it definitely seems like he charms people because he can. He wants to see if he can get them under his spell. It makes me wonder what it is that makes Toby different--Keller seems to tire of people once he realizes he can charm them. But not Toby--I wonder if it's that Toby genuinely does love him. But I would think the women Keller married did, too... so I don't know. What do you think?"

I think if he had met Beecher under other circumstances, he might've not been so obsessed with him. But this way... it first worked his way with the devious plan, then he got a bad conscience and actually had to try genuinely again.
I remember Keller quoting about his wives "call me old-fashioned, but before I fuck them I marry them" (when Toby asked why he got 4 (well, 3) ex-wives)
Even though it was a funny remark, I could really imagine it like that. He seems to really have a pattern here, killing every guy and marrying every woman.


"I'm glad you did, too! I love talking about this show, and really picking it apart, because the characters and their stories are so interesting. Some shows I watch and I'm like, OK, that was fun and then forget about it, but Oz I want to talk about!!"

Totally agreed! There's just so much in Oz to talk about! So many great characters and stories!

"Oh no, tell me he doesn't hurt Toby! I guess I can see it happening, if Toby tried to break up with him. "

Right, Keller's one man you don't want to mess with let's just say he's just exremely jealous and possessive... you'll definitely see what I mean once you get there. XD

Ah, I remember the interviewing scene now, thanks for the reminder. I liked those moments, was interesting to see... I mean, Keller actually got along pretty good with Ryan and then he tells him off!



"Yeah, me, too, probably. And I think if Toby was in jeopardy, Keller could take just about anyone out."
*lol* I had to think of the quiz show at first!

"I think that's what makes the show so great, because the characters are realistic people. They're three-dimensional. Everyone has some redeeming qualities. I loved Adebisi's quote about having to be human, and also how he genuinely respected Said. I loved that Vern did care for his sons and granddaughter. And that Keller really does love Beecher. They might do some horrible, terrible things, but like anyone they have people they care about."

I agree so much with that... I think Oz is a show not many people truly appreciate. Because of the harsh content, many people wouldn't want to watch it and many of the viewers are... just not getting the point. I mean, the comments on f.e. youtube are horrible! They're very racist, macho and homophobic. I guess only a handful of people really think about it and discuss the show. Personally, I like how they're basically all bastards, but they're still human, you can feel with them and feel sorry for them and partly understand their motives.


"I think Schibetta was totally overwhelmed in that moment, and realized he was in over his head. The rest had just been posturing, but once Adebisi raped him, he lost the ability to hide behind that tough guy attitude. And the Sicilians kind of abandoned him. I think Schibetta would have been better off with the others--forming an alliance with Ryan or Beecher or even getting himself a boyfriend like Keller. He needed someone to look out for him, and because the Italians pretty much dumped him, it wasn't going to be them."

You're right! I don't know if to blame the writers or the Sicilians (probably both ), but I remember the conversation they had when McManus said Schibetta's coming back to Oz and they should take care of him since he's been traumatized... and Chucky's all like "don't worry, if there's one thing we know, it's how to take care of our own!" Weeell, yeah, we don't see much of that. Sad thing is that Schibetta actually asked for help a few times, but was always turned down, even before the rape (Miguel before and Said afterwards).

And as for the deaths who were IMO the stupidest, there's one in episode 2 and one in episode 4. I'll have to go now, but I hope I can reply to your second post tomorrow ^^