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Least Relatable Character?

Praxius said:
To Emna:

Well to each their own, but I felt the series could have done without her antics or character. It all just seemed like her character was slapped in the middle somewhere to be story filler.

I really liked Ro as well, and the episodes featuring her were, generally speaking, really good, too.

Edit: Oh, and when I say that I really liked her, I don't necessarily mean liked her as a person. She was prickly and defensive and abrasive and not all that likeable, but she was an interesting character to watch and I would have liked to have seen her develop more.
 
I really liked Ro as well, and the episodes featuring her were, generally speaking, really good, too.

Edit: Oh, and when I say that I really liked her, I don't necessarily mean liked her as a person. She was prickly and defensive and abrasive and not all that likeable, but she was an interesting character to watch and I would have liked to have seen her develop more.

Fair enough... but when it came to who I related to the least, I picked her as she was the first to pop into my mind, due to her limited exposure in Star Trek, which you pointed out.

Mind you some episodes wern't horrible, and she was an attractive actor, etc..... but so are most of the ST actors when you think about it.

I like just about all the ST characters in all the seriesesezez, but she's at the bottom of the list for me. While I did find Neelix annoying as hell when I first got into Voyager, over time I began to understand why he was the way he was..... and if people don't like a chipper Neelix, well last night I watched "Mortal Coil" , I'd suggest watching that.
 
I wonder if the writers themselves ever realized how silly the scenes of Riker 'romancing' various guest stars usually looked. Come to think of it, post TNG, good guy characters who appeared to be something of a classic 'ladies man', or one you'd expect to be one, were portrayed as, for the most part, unsuccessful with women/unlucky in love (Bashir right until the finale and to a degree Paris before hooking up with B'Elanna). It looks almost as a subversion of if the ladykiller stererotype of Kirk and Riker.

Good observation. As for your initial question, I doubt it. I could of course be wrong, but I think when they were having Riker act like the poor woman's Cary Grant (who had more sex appeal in his pinky finger than Riker had in his entire body, BTW) or James Bond or whatever he was supposed to be, they honestly believed he was alluring.
No, I am sure that this is how he was originally conceived, but I wonder if they - or at least some of the writers who subsequently worked on TNG and later on DS9 - realized it after the fact, when Riker did not end up nearly as popular with female fans as they expected him to (and seemed to be beaten in that respect by Picard by a mile, and maybe even by Data and Worf in a substantial portion of the fanbase).

edit: BTW - I liked Riker and Troi when I was 13 or 14 (and thought Riker was cute, even though I found his posturing a little silly even back then) - but then I grew up... :D I think that Jonathan Frakes and Marina Sirtis had a certain warmth and charm that they brought to the characters, but the characters were written in a rather ridiculous way.

I'm not sure how a robot that wants to grow old and die could be more relatably realistic than, well, pretty much any character imaginable. The thing is obviously broken.

As far as not making sense and not fitting the alleged situation, Kira Nerys is probably the Grand Champion.

Most people mean by "relatable" someone they themselves would like to be, or be friends with, or have sex with. And, "realism" is only mentioned because it's less self revelatory. In practice, the criterion of "realism" is about as meaningless as the "dull" standard.
No, this is not what "relatable" means at all. It has little to do with what you would like to be, or even be friends with, and certainly has nothing to do with who you would want to have sex with. It means that you can identify with the character, their experiences, what they are going through. It has more to do with what you are or what you have experienced, than what you would like to be. Sometimes you relate to the character exactly because they are making the same mistakes as you tend to do, or exhibiting your the qualities you have that you would rather change.

I personally find Kira the most relatable character, and Ro is behind her but still in top 10 or even top 5.
 
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It means that you can identify with the character, their experiences, what they are going through. It has more to do with what you are or what you have experienced, than what you would like to be. Sometimes you relate to the character exactly because they are making the same mistakes as you tend to do, or exhibiting your the qualities you have that you would rather change.

As in, Data's burden of potential immortality naturally leads to a desire to grow old and die, which speaks to my personal experience? Or, looking at it in another way, Harry Kim's ordinariness and lack of cool is so unlike my personal experience that it just can't resonate with me?

People say things like the quote above but they often have no discernible connection to the opinions offered. The original post talked about realism but somehow managed to conclude the most unrealistic (therefore, unrelatable) character in Trek was Kathryn Janeway? Spock, Data, Odo and Seven of Nine are not even supposed to be ordinary even in their own (science)fictional universe!

In the example of Kira Nerys, I have no idea how anyone could find her more relatable on the grounds of superior realism, as the OP would have it. She was supposed to be simultaneously a slick undercover operative/terrorist and a bluff, straightforward soldier (despite not being in the army!) She was supposed to be devout but didn't have theological interests, not even when her superior officer was dubbed the Emissary, but only was annoyed he wasn't Bajoran. She was supposed to be studiously disinterested in politics yet somehow a revolutionary/terrorist. She might have realistically been some of these things, but she can't realistically be the opposites simultaneously.

Her love life went from one big shot to another, culminating in the key figure in galactic war. She was basically a nice Jewish girl whose mommy was Hitler's lover. (Yes, not literally true!) The character is a joke and it's amazing no one seems to notice.

Should it be any surprise I can't see how she's relatable on the grounds quoted above, either? Obviously, Kira has her fans, but it's not because she's realistic or relatable in the sense above.
 
Wesley...I cant relate to this character at all, not saying I didnt like his character, its just he was just not like anyone I have ever known. And he has qualities I havent ever seen in any kids or teenagers, not that its impossible, he was just too perfect, i dont know if that makes any sense....
 
Q. Both omnipotent and annoying. Not that I can't be annoying sometimes...
 
Neelix was so annoyinging sugary sweet and nice that I could not relate to him at all. Mostly, I just wanted to clobber him. This character was like nails on chalkboard to me.

Malcolm Reed - I never understood the point of this character. In fact, he was so utterly forgettable that just to remember his name for the purpose of this post, I had to go look up the cast list of Broken Bow on Jammer's website. :lol: Travis Mayweather was memorable, at least, because the fact that he never had anything to do was discussed all the time. But Reed? Seriously: What was the point? :lol:


I won't count Data and the EMH because they are not humanoids...but I found both of them super-annoying after a while too. In fact, the EMH is probably my least favorite character in all of Trek - even lower on my list than Neelix the Sweet and Hoshi the Whiner. :lol:
 
It means that you can identify with the character, their experiences, what they are going through. It has more to do with what you are or what you have experienced, than what you would like to be. Sometimes you relate to the character exactly because they are making the same mistakes as you tend to do, or exhibiting your the qualities you have that you would rather change.
As in, Data's burden of potential immortality naturally leads to a desire to grow old and die, which speaks to my personal experience? Or, looking at it in another way, Harry Kim's ordinariness and lack of cool is so unlike my personal experience that it just can't resonate with me?

People say things like the quote above but they often have no discernible connection to the opinions offered. The original post talked about realism but somehow managed to conclude the most unrealistic (therefore, unrelatable) character in Trek was Kathryn Janeway? Spock, Data, Odo and Seven of Nine are not even supposed to be ordinary even in their own (science)fictional universe!
"Relatable" has absolutely nothing to do with ordinary. It has everything to do with the character having recognizable human emotions, reasoning and reactions, which make the viewers empathize with, or at least recognize where they're coming from. And that is very difficult when the character is written inconsistently and as a Mary Sue-captain who seems to be motivated mostly by what the writers want to happen in a specific episode. or which decision they think the captain should make in the episode so that she would be right once again. It is also very difficult to relate to a character who is written without any real depth, and whom we never really get to know well.

(edit: But I do relate with Janeway on one thing - I love coffee :D :p )

There is such thing as psychological realism. And yes, it means that, in SF, androids, aliens and holograms may actually end up being far more relatable than many human characters - especially when the writers use those non-human characters to explore issues such as loneliness, social ineptitude, being confused by one's emotions, feeling like an outsider, needing to belong somewhere. These are the things that many people can relate to. Heck, most teenagers (or those who remember what it is like to be one) will very easily identify with all this. :)



In the example of Kira Nerys, I have no idea how anyone could find her more relatable on the grounds of superior realism, as the OP would have it. She was supposed to be simultaneously a slick undercover operative/terrorist and a bluff, straightforward soldier (despite not being in the army!)
Right, because members of resistance movements in occupied countries were all seasoned officers who had finished military academies.

edit: Also, what undercover operative? The closest we've ever seen to this is when she pretended to be a prostitute for like 2 minutes so she could get close enough to the guard to punch him out (in "Homecoming"). That must have really required extensive undercover skills. :rolleyes: When was it ever mentioned that she had an undercover identity and task? Unless you're mixing her up with Iliana Ghemor.

She was supposed to be devout but didn't have theological interests
Because every person who believes in God or has any other kind of religious belief is an educated theologist who studies the works of St Augustine and Thomas Aquinas.

She was supposed to be studiously disinterested in politics yet somehow a revolutionary/terrorist. She might have realistically been some of these things, but she can't realistically be the opposites simultaneously.
Because all the members of resistance movements in occupied countries, say in World War II, or in any country under the Ottoman Empire, or in Mexico, or any country under colonial rule, are always staunch communists or capitalists or believers in some other ideology, and had decided to fight in order to help a certain political party come to power - rather than because they felt they had to protect themselves and their families, or because they found the conditions under which they lived unbearable, due to hunger, oppression, cruelty or abuse.

Some of the people in my extended family on mother's side had fought in resistance/guerilla movements during the World War II, and guess what one of them told my mother once? That they didn't know or care about communism or royalism or anything, they just went to the woods and took up arms because they had to. Because the Nazi-satellite state that included the territory where their villages were, had a genocidal policy towards their ethnic group. It was pretty simple - either you were going to get literally slaughtered or have your eyes plucked out before getting killed or taken to a concentration camp, or you were going to run away to another country as a refugee, or you were going to fight. Ideology had nothing to do with this, it was a matter of survival. It was only later that the political commissaries came and started organizing them into a broader movement and talking about anti-fascism and communism, but most of those people, who ended up as members of communist resistance movement against the fascist occupation, were just ordinary people, and ideology was a side issue for them.

Her love life went from one big shot to another, culminating in the key figure in galactic war.
Because it's totally unheard of for a public figure to be involved with a series of celebrities/public figures. I can't think of this ever happening in real life.

She was basically a nice Jewish girl whose mommy was Hitler's lover. (Yes, not literally true!)
Certainly not, since the parallel doesn't work. As it has been correctly noted in another thread in General Trek very recently, the Cardies/Bajorans - Nazis Germans/Jews comparison is made of fail. If Cardassia had had a widespread genocidal policy towards the Bajorans, you can be sure that there would have been far more than 10 millions Bajoran victims over the course of 50 years. The Hutus were more efficient in killing Tutsies. And on DS9, the Dominion managed to kill at least 600 million Cardassians in just a few weeks. Cardassians considered Bajorans an inferior, superstitious, culturally backward race, but they did not see Bajorans as the bane of their existence - at least not before the Resistance actions escalated - and did not decide on a Final Solution to their problem; they did not occupy Bajor because they wanted to kill all Bajorans - they did it primarily to plunder their natural resources, and secondary, to use the people as slaves and exploit them as work force or sexually. Sounds familiar? A few Cardassians, like Gul Dar'heel, did in fact commit genocide, but the main Cardassian policy, as exemplified by Dukat, the Prefect of Bajor, was very much White Man's Burden (Grey Man's Burden?). In other words, the more adequate comparison are not Nazis, it is colonialism.

And I wonder, just how many girls in the colonized worlds had mommies who slept with their masters? Again, unheard of... :shifty:

Obviously, Kira has her fans, but it's not because she's realistic or relatable in the sense above.
In what sense? She is very realistic and relatable, because she behaves and feels like you'd expect from a person with the history she's supposed to have.

Saying that an SF show should be realistic in the sense of showing everyday life of an average person would be ridiculous. But SF shows can be as psychologically realistic as any other show, and they don't have any more excuse for a lack of psychological realism than any other show.
 
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Stating the obvious about the Nerys character may have struck a nerve. But, really, what is wrong with liking the character because you like the actress?

Kira Nerys lacks psychological realism. The attempted rebuttal, in attempting to defend the many absurdities of the "character," manages to talk about partisans in the woods fleeing genocidal maniacs but turns around and talks at length about how the Cardassians weren't genocidal. This self contradictory nonsense flows inevitably from the self contradictory nonsense in the character.

Also, Gul Dukat wasn't just a regular Nazi (See Duet: Cardassians are Nazis, and claims to the contrary are a triumph of bbs groupthink over sanity, even over ordinary vision.) Gul Dukat was the great Cardassian villain. Uncovering such a personal relationship between the heroine and the villain is melodrama, pure and simpleminded. You didn't make a plausible counterargument, you just misrepresented the case.

You also misrepresented the case in Kira's lovelife, where her lovers went, how did it go?, from national war hero, to the combination President/Pope, to the renegade god from the pantheon of the Founders? The thing is, Kira was not supposed to be a "public figure!" She was explicitly not supposed to be some big shot politician or military leader. The remarkably ever higher status of her lovers is therefore wish fulfilment for the sexual ideal.

And, you don't have to be a professor of theology to decide what denomination you are in. Kira was simultaneously supposed to be devout and wholly nondenominational, not to mention nonsectarian (unbigoted.) That's just BS.

As for delusions that Janeway is more inconsistently written than Nerys, give me some of that stuff you're smoking!:evil:
Seven of Nine was more inconsistently written than Janeway, as was already noted in the thread!
 
Stating the obvious about the Nerys character may have struck a nerve.
The obvious? LOL Give me a break.

So let's see, if nobody answered you, you'd take that as evidence you're right, and when someone answers you in detail, all you can say is "it may have struck a nerve" and take that as evidence you are right? Wow, that is very convenient. :rolleyes: :rommie:

But, really, what is wrong with liking the character because you like the actress?
Nothing, but what does that have to do with the issue? You may like the character because you like the actress and because the character is well written. I wasn't aware that one excluded the other.

Kira Nerys lacks psychological realism.
And you haven't named a single argument to support that statement. In fact, the stuff you keep repeating shows that you haven't got a clue what psychological realism is in the first place. So, before trying to debate something, how about you try understanding what the hell you're talking about, first? Psychological realism means that a character has believable psychology and reactions to the situations he or she is put in. All the things you keep going on about are just complaints about the plot points you find far-fetched, which is something entirely different.

The attempted rebuttal, in attempting to defend the many absurdities of the "character,"
"Character" in quotating marks? That's something new. That is actually supposed to mean something? :cardie:

manages to talk about partisans in the woods fleeing genocidal maniacs but turns around and talks at length about how the Cardassians weren't genocidal. This self contradictory nonsense flows inevitably from the self contradictory nonsense in the character.
People in my family were fleeing genocidal maniacs, yes. The state they happened to live in at the time had an official genocidal policy. So? What the hell does that have to do with "contradictory nonsense of the character"? :rolleyes: I named this is one of the examples of guerilla/resistance fighters, because it is the one I know best. I also said that, in other cases, people take up arms and fight because - even if there was no overall genocidal policy - the conditions under which they lived unbearable, due to hunger, oppression, cruelty or abuse. I also named Ottoman Empire and Mexico among the examples, which you chose to ignore. The point is that it's a well known fact that resistance/guerilla movements are usually not made up of people of military backgrounds. Was that so difficult to understand?

(See Duet: Cardassians are Nazis, and claims to the contrary are a triumph of bbs groupthink over sanity, even over ordinary vision.)
I've got an idea for you: how about you try arguing the facts instead of making unsupported statements that you think everyone should consider true only because you say so?

Gul Dukat was the great Cardassian villain. Uncovering such a personal relationship between the heroine and the villain is melodrama, pure and simpleminded. You didn't make a plausible counterargument, you just misrepresented the case.
<snip - Kira's lovelife, etc. >
Here we go again. What does any of this have to do with psychological realism or consistent writing for a character? You're complaining about plot points not being "realistic". Well, duh. You don't think you may be watching the wrong show, if that's what you are looking for? :rommie:

I hate to think how implausible you must find Picard. The guy is supposed to, among other things, have been stabbed through the heart as a young man in a bar browl; got captured, tortured and interrogated for days behind enemy lines; got captured by cybernetic pseudo-race of beings with a hive mind who assimilated him and made him kill people, but was freed and went back to his old post; was considered a god by an alien race; had an elaborate artifically induced hallucination of having lived another life and had a family on a planet in a distant past; found a long lost son who turned out not to have been his after all [how's that for melodrama, or rather soap opera]; was stranded on a planet with an alien who acted like a stalker because she wanted to learn what love is; met and had to fight an evil clone of himself; had regular visits by an alien prankster with god-like powers who played tricks on him, made him travel through space and time, relive parts of his life and watch alternative universe versions of his life; fell in love with a thief [more melodrama] who ended up leaving with the above mentioned god-like alien prankster. As this comic puts it, how did this guy even function without a lot of therapy?

And we better not mention Kirk (was one of only 9 witnesses of a massacre by a fascist-like dictator and got involved with his daughter who turned out to be a serial killer; fought Greek gods, aliens with god-like powers and genetically enhanced supermen who had awoken after being frozen for 3 centuries; traveled in the past a few times; fell in love with a woman from an earlier century and had to let her die so Hitler would not rule the world [how is that for melodrama!]; had one of his best friends turn into an evil being with god-like superpowers; fell in love with an android; rapidly aged due to radiation to the point of becoming senile, but went back to normal after a cure was found; was used as breeding stock by a race of aliens who lived at an accelerated pace; suffered amnesia and got married to a woman from a space Indians tribe who considered him a god, only to have his pregnant wife killed; gave his body voluntarily to be possessed by an ancient alien; had an insane former lover exchange bodies with him; had a son out of wedlock who returned to his life, only to be killed by villainous aliens [again, melodrama - or should it be soap opera...); was wrongly convicted and sent to a creepy prison planet, before escaping with the help of a shapeshifting alien, and managing to get back to his ship and uncover the bad guys' conspiracy; lost his best friend but managed to have him resurrected [no kidding!]; was considered dead while he lived 78 years in a non-linear temporal phenomenon created by an energy distortion, only to end up dying while fighting a bad guy alongside a captain from the next century).

... or Sisko (talks to prophetic godlike aliens and has them help him in war), or McCoy (was nearly eaten by a shapeshifting monster who tricked him by taking the shape of his former lover; had one of his dead friend's spirit trapped into his body and nearly went crazy as a result), Riker (fell in love with an androgynous being, found out he had a clone and killed him, had a crush on a hologram, lived a few days in an imaginary future created by an alien child, was captured and experimented on at least twice, has another version of himself created in a transporter accident and this version later joined a terrorist movement...)

Huh, could it be that Trek is not as realistic as Mad Men or The Wire? You don't say! ;)

And, you don't have to be a professor of theology to decide what denomination you are in. Kira was simultaneously supposed to be devout and wholly nondenominational, not to mention nonsectarian (unbigoted.) That's just BS.
You need to meet more people.

As for delusions that Janeway is more inconsistently written than Nerys, give me some of that stuff you're smoking!:evil:
Seven of Nine was more inconsistently written than Janeway, as was already noted in the thread!
You can ask it from of all those other people on Trek BBS who think that Janeway was written inconsistently. Amazing how many of us are "smoking that stuff". Wow, you seem to be the only sober one who sees the light and knows the Truth. Congratulations. :devil: :lol:
 
Stj--I don't recall the Cardies sporting swastikas, killing Jews, or invading the Soviet Union.

Of course, I don't recall Nazis having scales, conquering planets, or fighting low-intensity wars and negotiating their ends, either.

Devil--the best thing about the evil clone is that Picard found out that if he had had a bad childhood, he'd have grown up to be a maniac, rapist mass-murderer. :D
 
Neelix--nobody can be that happy and friendly.

I can! How unfortunate that a wonderful human being like you could say something so negative about someone! Hey, would you like a cake? I baked this wonderful cake the other day, and I just might have enough left! Why don't you come down to the mess hall and we can chat for a little while and enjoy cake! Have a wonderful, super day! :D
 
And, you don't have to be a professor of theology to decide what denomination you are in. Kira was simultaneously supposed to be devout and wholly nondenominational, not to mention nonsectarian (unbigoted.) That's just BS.

Non-denominational? Since when did the Bajoran faith have denominations, besides those who worshipped the Prophets (the vast majority) and those who worshipped the Pah-Wraiths (a minority, directly identified as a "cult")? Kira, of course, worshipped the Prophets as Gods, plain as day. You are inscribing a lot of Christian characteristics into a religion that was never portrayed as being as deeply divided.
 
Stj--I don't recall the Cardies sporting swastikas, killing Jews, or invading the Soviet Union.

Why post in response to my post while ignoring my advice to see Duet? You have no case. Cardassians are Nazis. Saying they have to sport swastikas or kill Jews is fatuously literal. The funny part is that the Cardassians did sign a nonaggression pact with the Soviet Union (ahem, Dominion.) Which fact shows your opinion to be particularly obtuse.

Non-denominational? Since when did the Bajoran faith have denominations, besides those who worshipped the Prophets (the vast majority) and those who worshipped the Pah-Wraiths (a minority, directly identified as a "cult")? Kira, of course, worshipped the Prophets as Gods, plain as day. You are inscribing a lot of Christian characteristics into a religion that was never portrayed as being as deeply divided.

All religions, even imperial religions supported by a state monopoly, are divided. To say "sectarian" is to say "religious." Sure, I thought about expanding the reference. But people already know about such things as Franciscans vs. Dominicans, Theravadins vs. Mahayana, Shiva vs. Ganesha as favorite, Latin rite vs. Eastern rite, etc. ad nauseam. No amount of words will prevent bad faith misinterpretation.

The insane claim that rebel groups in Mexico and the Ottoman Empire were not viciously factional, sectarian and highly political is a good example of malice making someone stupid. Kira was supposed to be a nonfactional, nonsectarian and nonpolitical resistance fighter. BS. The claim that resistance fighters were commonly civilians is correct, which is why the portrayal of Kira as a gruff soldier type is so psychologically unrealistic. This argument has already been made, ignored and a straw man claim that resistance fighters were soldiers victoriously slain.

In dramatic terms, Duet is a fact. It is a fact that Kira is supposed to be a humble figure but also a public figure whose hobnobbing would lead to affairs with the greatest and famousest. It is a fact that Kira is supposed to be a civilian resistance fighter (a la Battle of Algiers rather than forest partisans, wasn't it?) resorting to patience and subterfuge and a gruff, impatient soldier. It is a fact that Kira was supposed to be religious but her religious observance had zero content. This is all nonsense, totally absurd psychologically.

The love life and the Hitler's stepdaughter plot points have nothing to do with her psychological motivations, or indeed much dramatic interest. They are interesting because Nana Visitor makes some people too horny to notice how silly Kira Nerys is.
 
^ Dominion = Soviet Union? :cardie: And I thought the Cardassians = Nazis parallel was made of fail... :rolleyes:
 
Non-denominational? Since when did the Bajoran faith have denominations, besides those who worshipped the Prophets (the vast majority) and those who worshipped the Pah-Wraiths (a minority, directly identified as a "cult")? Kira, of course, worshipped the Prophets as Gods, plain as day. You are inscribing a lot of Christian characteristics into a religion that was never portrayed as being as deeply divided.

All religions, even imperial religions supported by a state monopoly, are divided. To say "sectarian" is to say "religious."

Are you working your way up to criticizing the portrayal of the Bajoran religion as simplistic? Because the Bajoran religion was never portrayed as being overly divided, besides the previously mentioned Pah-Wraith worshippers. It might have been a mistake on my part to say you were inscribing the Bajoran religion with Christian characteristics, although the terminology of "denominations" is chiefly associated with the Christian faith, but the point still stands. It was portrayed as a monolithic faith, and Kira was a member of that faith!

They are interesting because Nana Visitor makes some people too horny to notice how silly Kira Nerys is.

Why not lead with such fallacious nonsense? You've repeated this same point twice, and it's had nothing to do with the discussion at hand both times.
 
stj said:
Why post in response to my post while ignoring my advice to see Duet? You have no case. Cardassians are Nazis. Saying they have to sport swastikas or kill Jews is fatuously literal. The funny part is that the Cardassians did sign a nonaggression pact with the Soviet Union (ahem, Dominion.) Which fact shows your opinion to be particularly obtuse.

Treating Bajor as a planet-sized avatar of Auschwitz is unsupportable by the evidence. If the Nazis had orbital weapons platforms capable of obliterating a biosphere, and Planet Israel was defenseless, Planet Israel would have less than 1% of its original sapient population within a few hours. The population would not be psychologically scarred but fruitful 50 years later.

If you're using "Nazi" to refer to any racist or even any fascist, you're just spouting an epithet. Darheel probably wasn't literally a motherfucker, either, but I'm not going to spend energy arguing that he wasn't.

Re: the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, it's in no way comparable to the alliance between the Dominion and Cardassia. Cardassia was a failed state, and accepted Dominion occupation and membership. I don't recall at all when Hitler (the "great German villain," to paraphrase you) invited the Soviets into Germany and dissolved the Third Reich as a sovereign nation. The Soviet Union is best played by the UFP, or maybe the UFP can be the United Kingdom and the Romulans can be the Soviets, but in either case there is no real analogue to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact in the Dominion War, since the Romulans broke it (they broke a treaty--does this make them the Nazis? Nazis broke treaties, too).

Maybe I missed a day in history, or maybe your World War 2 analogies are poor.

The Dominion War can't be precisely mapped onto World War 2, and the Cardassian occupation of Bajor cannot be mapped onto the Holocaust. Trying to make 1-to-1 comparisons is silly. The Cardassians are like the Nazis in that they were aggressive, chauvinist, and exploitative. The Bajorans are like Jews in that they were religious and were an identifiable group that suffered unspeakable atrocities.

The Cardassians were unlike the Nazis in that, at least as far as their policy makers were concerned, the Bajorans were not marked for extermination--only Dukat, Darheel, and a few others ever expressed the sentiment that all Bajorans needed to die, and Dukat only after he went insane. Hitler never wanted Jews to build a statue of him.

The Bajorans were unlike Jews in that their history of persecution was comparatively brief and comparatively bloodless, and that they were not integrated into the host society (Cardassia) for many decades prior to the rise in power of an irrational demagogue using them as a scapegoat for Cardassia's ills.

Obviously Nazis were on the mind in the conception of the Cardassians, but the corpus does not bare out a simple-minded equation of the two. If any 20th century power is best relatable to the Cardies, it's probably the pre-war Japanese, with a civil society of some import and influence, and a metastasizing military clique, particularly in the border Orders (ha). The Kwantung Army emphasized a peculiarly Japanese concept of manifest destiny in Korea and China, and the militarists of the Army and Navy gained virtually total control over the machinery of government as time went on. Heck, the competition between and virtual independence of the IJA and IJN is potentially analogous to the Obsidian Order/Central Command schism. The IJA: not allowed to have ships?

Even then, this grossly simplifies Japanese politics. The themes are merely similar--Cardassia is not a direct allegory for anything.

The argument boils down to this: the Cardassians did not have an intent to see Bajor dead, even though a dead Bajor is probably very much easier to exploit, and more permanently, than a Bajor with billions of people on it.

Cardassian policy is thus more easily cognizable as 19th century European imperialism, with hints of grossly delusional altruism as moral cover for exploitation, than German Nazism, which sought little moral cover other than the Slavic nature of the inhabitants of its lebensraum, and very actively sought extermination of unwanted populations.
 
^ Great analysis.

And it was in fact Bajor that signed a non-aggression pact with Dominion, whereas Cardassia became a member of Dominion. Huge difference there.
 
Kira's supposed faith had no content beyond an earring and the occasional snippet of dialogue when the plot required it. Yet she was supposed to be devout. This is self contradictory, hence nonsense. Which means that Kira is not relatable because she is more psychologically realistic, the ridiculous claim being made. Which aspect of relatability is in fact very much on topic.

Again, watch Duet. Cardassians=Nazis. And Bajorans=Jews. Remember Ensign Ro? As for one to one comparisons with WWII, why, of course not: There is no equivalent to Bajor or the wormhole. Conservatives argue that the Nazi/Soviet pact led to Germany's downfall, as it did in the series. It was the USSR that turned on the Nazis in the DS9 version, which is yet another variation preventing one to one comparisons, of course. But that reflects conservative opinions about the greater evil of communism.

Insisting on childish literalism, with complete one to one correspondence, just to deny the obvious earns no credit, save with the true believers who will argue their gut instead of the evidence. iIt is another straw man argument.
 
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