TheGodBen Revisits Enterprise

[SRFX]

I always assumed Section 31 covered it all up.

 

[Skywalker]

I wouldn't doubt that Section 31 played some sort of role in keeping the Borg secret from the Alpha Quadrant for so long.

My issue with the end of "Regeneration" was the line about how it would take two hundred years for the signal to reach whoever it had been sent to. We didn't need to know that; it would have been better if they could only tell that a signal had been sent in the direction of the Delta Quadrant, with no timeframe. That way Starfleet would prepare for a potential incursion, but as time goes by and nothing happens, they forget about the incident and turn their attention towards more pressing matters (i.e. the Romulans).

Well, a signal to the Delta Quadrant would've taken a hundred years or so to get there anyway, right?

True. I meant I'd have preferred that there hadn't been any mention of a timeframe. That part was a little too wink-wink for me.

 

[Disillusioned]

What I find interesting is that people assume that the cogenitor's contribution is necessarily sexual; that it involves rape; and that the cogenitor was mistreated similarly to the way we understand slavery in American history. None of those things has any basis in the episode itself.

Yeah there is. The cogenitors were treated like a necessary evil to reproduce with. Reproduction means sex unless you're a sea sponge, so that means the cogenitors were enslaved entirely for reproductive reasons, which means they were sex slaves. As the cogenitors were hardly in a position to consent to sex, that means rape. And just because they didn't beat the cogenitors doesn't mean that they weren't being mistreated. The mistreatment that we saw was the literal objectification of the cogenitors: they weren't given names, they weren't given education, and they were literally treated and referred to as a reproductive tool and nothing more.

I always assumed Section 31 covered it all up.

Why?

 

[SRFX]

Because whenever I can't explain something in Star Trek I just blame it on S31. :P

Seriously though - it seems like the sort of threat S31 would cover up. Regeneration occurred very near the Xindi attack, and S31 probably kept the Borg under wraps because the last thing they wanted was to add to humanity's xenophobia at that point.

 

[bluedana]

What I find interesting is that people assume that the cogenitor's contribution is necessarily sexual; that it involves rape; and that the cogenitor was mistreated similarly to the way we understand slavery in American history. None of those things has any basis in the episode itself.

Yeah there is. The cogenitors were treated like a necessary evil to reproduce with. Reproduction means sex unless you're a sea sponge, so that means the cogenitors were enslaved entirely for reproductive reasons, which means they were sex slaves. As the cogenitors were hardly in a position to consent to sex, that means rape. And just because they didn't beat the cogenitors doesn't mean that they weren't being mistreated. The mistreatment that we saw was the literal objectification of the cogenitors: they weren't given names, they weren't given education, and they were literally treated and referred to as a reproductive tool and nothing more.

That's a pretty big leap of logic there. Human reproduction doesn't even require sex anymore. And here's what Phlox offers on the subject in the episode:

TUCKER: So, you've heard of these cogenitors.
PHLOX: Not all species are limited to two sexes. In fact, I have it on good authority that the Rigellians have four, or was it five?
TUCKER: So you're saying that this man or woman or whatever, is a third sex?
PHLOX: That's exactly what I'm saying.
TUCKER; And she, it, is part of the impregnation process.
PHLOX: Precisely.
TUCKER; I'm pretty familiar with how it works with two sexes, but
PHLOX: Multi-gendered techniques aren't always the same, but in this case I imagine the cogenitor provides an enzyme which facilitates conception.
TUCKER: What do you mean by provides?
PHLOX: Well, first, the female has to
TUCKER: No, no, no, don't tell me. I don't think I want to know.
PHLOX: Oh, well. I have pictures.

Kind of like the type of hormone prescribed to women that was (and maybe still is) made from the urine of pregnant horses.

What was mistreatment to Trip, and by extension, us, was to the Vissians no different than how we treat our pets, except as Trip pointed out, Porthos had a name. As far as the Vissians were concerned, Charles was no more sentient or independent than a pet with a purpose, like a racehorse or a service animal.

 

[Praetor]

Regeneration: I loved it's similarity to The Thing!

I find that particularly awesome too.

 

[Disillusioned]

Because whenever I can't explain something in Star Trek I just blame it on S31. :P

Seriously though - it seems like the sort of threat S31 would cover up. Regeneration occurred very near the Xindi attack, and S31 probably kept the Borg under wraps because the last thing they wanted was to add to humanity's xenophobia at that point.

I guess the way I see it, the only effective way to prepare yourself against a possible threat is to be aware of its existence to begin with, so covering up something as huge as these mysterious cybernetic zombies that they found frozen on Earth would have been kind of stupid.

That's a pretty big leap of logic there. Human reproduction doesn't even require sex anymore. And here's what Phlox offers on the subject in the episode:

Kind of like the type of hormone prescribed to women that was (and maybe still is) made from the urine of pregnant horses.

Uh, yeah, which is why Phlox mentioned he had pictures, right? I'm real sure they were pictures of a cogenitor urinating or something like that.

What was mistreatment to Trip, and by extension, us, was to the Vissians no different than how we treat our pets, except as Trip pointed out, Porthos had a name. As far as the Vissians were concerned, Charles was no more sentient or independent than a pet with a purpose, like a racehorse or a service animal.

Except for the part where Trip managed to prove otherwise. He had actual empirical evidence from the scans he took and the fact that Charles learned to read in less than a day. Seeing as the Vissians were as advanced as they were, I kind of doubt it was a case of just not noticing something like that and never bothering to do anything as simple as taking a scan. The whole not teaching them to read thing actually is something from American slavery because they knew illiteracy would make it a lot harder for the slaves to coordinate any kind of an uprising.

 

[Peter the Younger]

I guess the way I see it, the only effective way to prepare yourself against a possible threat is to be aware of its existence to begin with, so covering up something as huge as these mysterious cybernetic zombies that they found frozen on Earth would have been kind of stupid.

Governments do stupid things all the friggin' time. And that goes quadruple for black ops programs.


As for Cogenitor, I've engaged in more than a few stemwinders over this one, and I'm not sure I have the energy to get into another, but I will say this: whether you accept the notion of moral relativism or not, there is a point to be made about the missionary impulse and how it can go horribly wrong. But you don't make that point by painting the only guy standing up for the individual as a culturally insensitive rube. Trip deserved better treatment from his captain, and his position deserved a fair hearing from the writers.

 

[miriel68]

I think there is yet another point about the "Cogenitor", we are not taking in consideration here. So, Trip had good intentions. No doubt about it. Cogenitor was treated unjustly, according to our moral point of view. No doubt about it, either.
However, what were the possible outcomes of Trip's actions - the outcomes he could have forseen, if he only had the grace to think about them for a moment? It was quite obvious that his noble action would render Cogenitor unhappy in any case. What could he/she do, once enlightened by Tucker?
a) enter in conflict with social system of Vissians and....
1. Start a rebellion (how? by enlightening other Cogenitors? Very unlikely and no chance for a victory, them being only 3% of population). Was Trip ready to offer a militar help and would it be right to do such a thing, anyway?
2. Continue to develop his/her intelectual abilities in secret, leading a double life?
3. Refuse to collaborate with "normal" Vissians, and finish in some place of confinement?
b) escape and ask for asylum (what he/she did)
1. If Archer granted her/him this possibliity, what next? Cogenitor would loose for ever his/her own planete, culture, people (familiy? we really don't know anything about it). Of course, we can always say that our human culture is so much better that there is nothing to regret.
2. Would Vissians try to get Cogenitor back by force? Unlikely. They would go away, convinced that humans are arrogant and meddling race they would better have no more contacts with. No regret, either, they are so brutal and unjust with Cogenitors we could say. What about all others Cogenitors on the planet? Archer would have saved - in a way - this one individual but he would eliminate any chance for a future dialogue and a possibility of gradual change of Vissians attitude through diplomatic/cultural influence.

 

[bluedana]

Originally Posted by bluedana
That's a pretty big leap of logic there. Human reproduction doesn't even require sex anymore. And here's what Phlox offers on the subject in the episode:

Kind of like the type of hormone prescribed to women that was (and maybe still is) made from the urine of pregnant horses.

Uh, yeah, which is why Phlox mentioned he had pictures, right? I'm real sure they were pictures of a cogenitor urinating or something like that.

If Phlox doesn't know, which he explicitly says, how in the world could he have pictures of the cogenitor at all? More likely, he's referring to the Rigellians or some other multi-gendered species, whom he's already mentioned, as an example of how it could possibly work, or maybe he's talking about illustrative medical diagrams that doctors mistakenly think people actually want to look at (rather than photos of anyone doing the deed). The bottom line is, Phlox doesn't know, and based on his experience with other species, he suggests an involvement that has nothing to do with sex or rape (providing an enzyme).

But you don't make that point by painting the only guy standing up for the individual as a culturally insensitive rube. Trip deserved better treatment from his captain, and his position deserved a fair hearing from the writers.

Trip never comes across to me as culturally insensitive rube in this episode (or ever; the closest he got, for me, was in Broken Bow with the weaning-to-oxygen scene with T'Pol, and that was pure ignorance of the species, not xenophobia). He comes across as someone who is convinced that he is right (and maybe he is), but cannot see a way to get from where he is to the result he wants without breaking rules.

I'm just not sure that the issue could be more than superficially addressed in the time frame of an episode, or that even if the writers had gone into the pros and cons (see mariel68's intriguing points, above) of providing asylum, how it could possibly have been conveyed without losing the entire audience. The philosophical arguments might be suitable for a Philip K. Dick or Neal Stephenson novel, but not in a 42-minute episode of Star Trek, even if you jettisoned the B and C plots.

 

[TheGodBen]

First Flight (**½)

While I like the fact that the writers chose to further develop the background of Starfleet and human space exploration, this episode is too filled with clichés for my liking.
Cliché 1: Archer meets his bestest friend, Lt Trip. I think this could have sustained an episode of its own, and it probably wouldn't seem like such a cliché had the rest of the episode not been filled with them, but as it is having these two meet in this story is a little rich.
Cliché 2: Archer must learn to take more risks and stop being obsessed by the rule book. It's a pity that television went out of fashion in the 2040s because it is such a common theme in television, and so many Trek characters have needed to learn that lesson over the years, that they could have learned valuable life lessons by watching reruns of Happy Days rather than getting into fights in bars.
Cliché 3: The bar brawl. I don't need to explain this one, the bar brawl has been in art since the very first cave paintings. Which is odd considering the fact that they probably didn't have beer back then.
Cliché 4: Archer and friend steal government property but manage to keep their jobs. I'm currently watching The Wire and one of the police officers on that show lost his job because he filed false paperwork to use a police camera. I can only imagine what punishment he would have faced if he stole an expensive, experimental spaceship, but it probably involves an electro-shock to a sensitive area. Bureaucracy will always trump the right ideas if they're not properly stamped and filed correctly.
Cliché 5: The dark matter nebula was real and they managed to prove it with their last two charges. You know, a lot of the time in science the most interesting thing to happen is when you don't find what you're looking for, and just once I was hoping an episode would explore that important aspect of science.

I'm upset that this episode wasn't more than the bog standard episode it ended up as, but the fact that it tried to explore the origins of Enterprise prevents me from going for the jugular.

Archer Abuse: 17

 

[startrekwatcher]

Probably of the four episodes, this one was the one that comes the closest in being the most successful in pulling off the material it tackled. I had virtually no problems with it. It works on so many levels. It provides some nice backstory between FC and Broken Bow. It has a respectable sense of nostalgia and sentimentality. It captured the best the Right Stuff feel B&B said they intended with ENT with the relationships between Robinson, Trip, Forest and Archer. I liked the touches of the bar, the warp five test facilities, the Archer/T’Pol scenes onboard the shuttlepod. The episode was nicely placed as it was a touching reminder that Archer’s more innocent views as well as Earth’s innocence is about to end given the fact we were on the eve of the Xindi attack. Keith Carradine did a fabulous job and I think he would have been better cast than Bakula based on his performance. He hit all the right notes. T’Pol’s suggestion about naming the phenomenon after Archer’s late friend was poignant. B+ or 3 stars out of 4.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

I think there is yet another point about the "Cogenitor", we are not taking in consideration here. So, Trip had good intentions. No doubt about it. Cogenitor was treated unjustly, according to our moral point of view. No doubt about it, either.
However, what were the possible outcomes of Trip's actions - the outcomes he could have forseen, if he only had the grace to think about them for a moment? It was quite obvious that his noble action would render Cogenitor unhappy in any case. What could he/she do, once enlightened by Tucker?
a) enter in conflict with social system of Vissians and....
1. Start a rebellion (how? by enlightening other Cogenitors? Very unlikely and no chance for a victory, them being only 3% of population). Was Trip ready to offer a militar help and would it be right to do such a thing, anyway?
2. Continue to develop his/her intelectual abilities in secret, leading a double life?
3. Refuse to collaborate with "normal" Vissians, and finish in some place of confinement?
b) escape and ask for asylum (what he/she did)
1. If Archer granted her/him this possibliity, what next? Cogenitor would loose for ever his/her own planete, culture, people (familiy? we really don't know anything about it). Of course, we can always say that our human culture is so much better that there is nothing to regret.
2. Would Vissians try to get Cogenitor back by force? Unlikely. They would go away, convinced that humans are arrogant and meddling race they would better have no more contacts with. No regret, either, they are so brutal and unjust with Cogenitors we could say. What about all others Cogenitors on the planet? Archer would have saved - in a way - this one individual but he would eliminate any chance for a future dialogue and a possibility of gradual change of Vissians attitude through diplomatic/cultural influence.

Great points, miriel.

I do agree that the point of the episode is to illustrate that every action has consequences, and if one neglects to look at the big picture and consider those consequences, the result (no matter how well-meaning the action) can be disastrous.

What was mistreatment to Trip, and by extension, us, was to the Vissians no different than how we treat our pets, except as Trip pointed out, Porthos had a name. As far as the Vissians were concerned, Charles was no more sentient or independent than a pet with a purpose, like a racehorse or a service animal.

I was thinking of the pet/service animal analogy myself.

Some people revere their pets, shower affection on them, play with them or teach them tricks, spend way more money on the pets than on themselves. (That would be me. ) Others simply feed the animal, make sure it gets its vaccinations, and hopefully keep it safe from harm. Who knows -- maybe some Vissian couples treat their cogenitor like a coddled pet, while others simply keep them fed and sheltered.

The bottom line is, Phlox doesn't know, and based on his experience with other species, he suggests an involvement that has nothing to do with sex or rape (providing an enzyme).

I never saw the "rape/sex slave" perspective, either. One, because, as bluedana indicates, the cogenitor's function may not have to do with a sexual act. Two, because there was no sign that the cogenitors were led around in shackles, or locked up, or physically/emotionally abused. Charles appeared to be in good health; he reminded me of a docile pet who did what it was told.

Another thing to consider is that some cogenitors may like being taken care of. I know some people who like having every little thing done for them, so they don't have to work at survival, or solve problems, or hassle with money, or take risks.

It apparently never occurred to Charles to feel oppressed or unfairly held back -- any more than a well-cared-for pet would feel imprisoned. Its perspective was doubtless a result of the environment in which it was raised -- this is the way things are. Trip's enlightenment was obviously a shock to its system, one it couldn't cope with. Like setting a coddled housepet free -- you're free! you're free! exult in your emancipation! -- and the poor thing dies of loneliness and starvation because it doesn't know how to be free.

 

[Peter the Younger]

I'm just not sure that the issue could be more than superficially addressed in the time frame of an episode, or that even if the writers had gone into the pros and cons (see mariel68's intriguing points, above) of providing asylum, how it could possibly have been conveyed without losing the entire audience. The philosophical arguments might be suitable for a Philip K. Dick or Neal Stephenson novel, but not in a 42-minute episode of Star Trek, even if you jettisoned the B and C plots.

Actually, I was thinking it wouldn't have been that hard to suggest a couple of mariel68's points had been reflected in Archer's lecture to Trip. It would have improved the episode greatly.

 

[Disillusioned]

You know, I would keep talking about this, but we're spamming up TheGodBen's thread. I suppose I could start a new thread about it, but I'm too lazy and don't really feel like arguing about it anymore anyway.

 

[Disillusioned]

First Flight (**½)

Yeah, this episode had plenty of cliches. Actually before you reminded me that there was a bar fight in this actual episode, I thought you were taking a shot at the bar fight in the new movie. I have to say though that I really liked the actor who played A.G. Robinson. He did a pretty good job, and I liked the character enough that it's a little sad we only got to see him in one flashback episode.

Oh, I suppose you could even add that as yet another cliche: a main character loses someone important to them, only we've never seen or heard of them before and usually don't ever again.

 

[SRFX]

I love First Flight. This is what Enterprise needed to be more about. It's a five star episode, even with the cliches.

Oh - and you can never have too many bar fights.

 

[Noname Given]

I love First Flight. This is what Enterprise needed to be more about. It's a five star episode, even with the cliches.

Oh - and you can never have too many bar fights.

And I still remember laughing at the fact that Trip SAVED the beers (They were the first thing he oicked up and carefully backed away with)

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I liked the episode, although I acknowledged at the time that it was slow, boring, and not particularly deep (I think it was the cliches that made it seem a bit shallow now that I think about it). But it had good heart and was doing some universe building, which I like. 2 1/2 sounds about right to me.

 

[TheGodBen]

Bounty (*****)

Here we have it folks, the last episode for which Phyllis Strong made Mike Sussman coffee, and it's a good one. Archer and Trip are enjoying some R&R on a planet when Archer finds some coconuts and he uses them to make an enjoyable chocolate-coated snack. They're a big hit with the crew, except for Mayweather who dies because he is allergic to coconuts, but nobody noticed because everyone was watching T'Pol hump Reed's leg. The episode ends with a thrilling cliffhanger as Archer finds out he is being sued by Mars Incorporated. I can't wait until next season when we will finally get Mike Sussman raw, but until then... Good work, Mike!







































Bounty (*½)

Archer gets kidnapped because the emergency docking clamps didn't work in an emergency, he gets in a fire-fight with Gowron, he gets taken to a Cardassian space station, and eventually he manages to outsmart some Klingons, a feat so unlikely it made headlines back on Earth. This a-plot is as predictable as they come, a bad guy who is really a good guy, Klingons double-crossing the bad/good guy for no reason, and Archer getting into a firefight in some corridors. It's not terrible, but it doesn't try very hard to be good either.

Then there's the b-plot... I want to ask why this b-plot exists, but I already know well enough. It's not interesting, it's not funny, all it did was bring me nightmares about Phlox's giant tongue licking T'Pol's sweaty cleavage. Enjoy the imagery, folks.

Archer Abuse: 18
Nipples Ahoy!: 11

Edit: Why am I calling everyone "folks"?