So they have annihilated Kes in that book too?
If that's the truth, so much bigger reason for me to hate it!
In that case it's a total war.
Spoiler! DONT HATE ME! I liked FC
- Thread starter KimMH
- Start date
So they have annihilated Kes in that book too?
If that's the truth, so much bigger reason for me to hate it!
In that case it's a total war.
I suspected that, therefore I changed the text in my previous post.
But if something like that should happen, I would know about it soon, just as I know about the annihilation of Janeway. I don't have to read it to know.
And tell me, wouldn't it be stupid to buy a book which I know I would hate just to read it once and then have to sell it on Ebay for a symbolic sum?
I did that with a horrible "Strange New World" book after discovering a scenario similar to the one you came up with.
Which is why i suggested getting the book from the library, then it cost you nothing.
And you don't have to read about it to know. But you only find out the shock event, nothing around it.
If I told you that America shut down all its airports and closed all its ports and grounded all aircraft, then you might be shocked or appauled. If I told you that this was because of 9/11 you would understand because you knew the context. Facts are fine, but context is king.
"Frasier has moved to Seattle to live with his father? It'll never work..."
And you don't have to read about it to know. But you only find out the shock event, nothing around it.
If I told you that America shut down all its airports and closed all its ports and grounded all aircraft, then you might be shocked or appauled. If I told you that this was because of 9/11 you would understand because you knew the context. Facts are fine, but context is king.
"Frasier has moved to Seattle to live with his father? It'll never work..."
I have to inform you that I live on the other side of the Atlantic and where I live, Star trek books aren't available on the library, at least not yet.
I have to buy them from a shop in one of the big cities or from Amazon.
The example you brought up is irrelevant since the whole world did know why the airports were shut down and the ports were closed.
In my case, I know that Janeway is killed off which is something I simply can accept, it doesn't matter how, why or even when.
Not necessarily, news filtered through in dribs and drabs, particularly to this side of the pond. I found out that there was no air travel, then I asked why, then I found out about it.
And I'm sorry I didn't realise that American Libraries were like that. Well I suppose that that's all there is to it then.
But still you can't make judgements on specific points in a book you haven't read. I accept that you can argue about the editorial decision to kill off Janeway (maybe) but the sending Voyager back to the DQ is a massive plot arc throughout the book, and can only be discussed having read it.
I must admit that I do find it annoying that it was so impossible to get the old gang back together on some mission in the Delta Quadrant or Andromeda Galaxy but no problem in coming up with a bogus Voyager with a bogus Captain, Admiral or whatever who are going back to the Delta Quadrant.
It's like that bogus Fleetwood Mac who toured the US in the 70:s without the original members or any known member at all. (It became a scandal and when the manager was faced with angry fans and journalists, he lost his temper and yelled "I have the rights to the band name! I am Fleetwood Mac!" Well, he was sued and lost those rights in the end).
Anyway, the only thing that would make me consider buying any of that upcoming stuff about the bogus crew is if this Captain or Admiral or whatsoever get a similar outburst, yelling to the crew on the bridge: "I have all the rights to command this ship! I am Voyager!"
And no, I won't charge the writer who uses that line.
Are you saying that Pocket killed off Janeway with no actual plans for Voyager post-death?
It seems a pretty bloody major point to throw out there and then hope that something (anything) would come along as follow up. It tends to reinforce my belief that it was a stunt death: got to do something with Voyager, so let's kill off the main character and hope that context and consequence and emotional resonance will arrive on their own...
Was there no forward planning by Pocket whatsoever?
Can you tell me why we should invest time with any new character when the much loved older one has been treated so badly? If you did it once it can be done again.
Brit
Frazzled,
I did read your whole post and you certainly make valid points addressing some of the challenges of Janeway being an admiral. I take no issue with your reasoning on that subject and quite agree with some of them (which is why I didn't comment on it.) And, as I'm sure you know, the choice to promote her to Admiral was actually based upon her brief appearance in Nemesis. Had it been up to me, which it never was, I would have looked for a way to work around Nemesis because her promotion as it stands takes a lot of choices that I would like to have had off the table.
However, having said that, once she was promoted, allowing her to die was obviously not the only option available either. It was simply the one that was chosen because the editors felt it presented the most compelling story possibilities and that unique story was something they were interested in exploring.
I understand your reaction to Before Dishonor. Completely. And I understand how reading it makes it difficult to contemplate picking up Full Circle any time soon. I was aware that you never said you weren't going to read it. I was actually speaking to kimc there.
However, until you have read it, you should resist the temptation to make assumptions about characters and story points beyond Janeway's death, because out of context they make a great deal less emotional sense than they do in context.
I know you're never going to agree with the decision. I'm not trying to change your mind on that. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion about that choice and I totally respect it. I think everyone who feels as you do is deserving of respect and compassion. My only issue comes when facts are argued in the absense of evidence.
I wish you well and hope that someday, when you feel ready to look at Full Circle, you enjoy the read.
No.
What I said was that the story Full Circle...the fully developed final version which included Admiral Batiste...did not exist when the choice was made to explore the death of Kathryn Janeway.
There was plenty of forward planning, a great deal of which was delayed by the development of Destiny. The story that ultimately became Full Circle went through numerous revisions before the writing began. I was first brought into the picture after BD was conceived and knowing the major plot development, began my work accordingly. But plot and character don't just happen overnight. There were versions of the story that existed without Batiste. There were versions of the story that did not include the events of Destiny. Then there was a point when it all came together and we ended up where we are now.
There's always a plan. It waits for individual authors to come along and breathe life and character into it...to build upon the broad strokes selected by the editors.
No.
You should invest your time and money in stories you are likely to enjoy. And though I do not think you should read Full Circle, it is not because I fear for your becoming attached to characters other than Janeway, be they old or new, and then those characters suffering fates you might find offensive.
You have indicated time and again that Janeway's fate alone determines your ability to enjoy a story. So there was no way for you to take pleasure in a story that features her death.
So don't read it.
However, I reject your premise that she was treated badly...particularly in Full Circle. I believe that it was possible for her to die and be treated well in the story. Turns out a number of readers agree with me. I've read a lot of criticisms by people who have read the book, but I have yet to come across one who thought Janeway's character was badly done in Full Circle. Disliking the fact that she died is not the same as disliking her character as it was portrayed.
I'm still not saying you should read it. But you should rest easier knowing that her character was not destroyed or otherwise bent, spindled or mutilated on her way to meeting her death and should not fear for the fate of other characters you might someday come to care about.
Kirsten Beyer
Please keep your remarks about the posts and not individual posters. If you have an issue with a poster then feel free to pm them.
Yes, I've read your explanation in other threads and yes I still find the situation ironic. That's my opinion and it's not likely to change. Nothing personal on my part.
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I must admit that I do find it annoying that it was so impossible to get the old gang back together on some mission in the Delta Quadrant or Andromeda Galaxy but no problem in coming up with a bogus Voyager with a bogus Captain, Admiral or whatever who are going back to the Delta Quadrant.
It's like that bogus Fleetwood Mac who toured the US in the 70:s without the original members or any known member at all. (It became a scandal and when the manager was faced with angry fans and journalists, he lost his temper and yelled "I have the rights to the band name! I am Fleetwood Mac!" Well, he was sued and lost those rights in the end).
Anyway, the only thing that would make me consider buying any of that upcoming stuff about the bogus crew is if this Captain or Admiral or whatsoever get a similar outburst, yelling to the crew on the bridge: "I have all the rights to command this ship! I am Voyager!"
And no, I won't charge the writer who uses that line.
I would humbly submit that if you had read Before Dishonour, Star Trek Destiny and Full Circle then you would understand completely.
And if the guy owned the rights to the band, then sorry but he was that band...
They didn't decomission the HMS Invincible when her CO was promoted to Admiral...
^^
It's possible that might understand but that doesn't mean that I have to accept it.
As for the manager, well legally he did own the band name and maybe "was the band" but that didn't prevent the journalists to trash the band and the audience to throw beer cans at them because they felt cheated.
And I must admit that I do see some similarities between the bogus Fleetwood Mac and the "relaunch crew".
It's possible that might understand but that doesn't mean that I have to accept it.
As for the manager, well legally he did own the band name and maybe "was the band" but that didn't prevent the journalists to trash the band and the audience to throw beer cans at them because they felt cheated.
And I must admit that I do see some similarities between the bogus Fleetwood Mac and the "relaunch crew".
Yup, relaunch crews just don't do it for me either. I like the books that fit inbetween the tv series because they're all the same folk. I should've enjoyed the bits of Before Dishonour inbetween Janeway's torture and death because I love TNG but the new crew was a huge turnoff for me. It's not that I dislike the new people, I miss the old!
If I move on enough from Janeway to read the newest books, reviews on here about how much of the rest of the original crew they focus on would be a huge factor in whether I bothered. I'm defintiely not getting any more new crew TNG books. No disrespect to anyone, they're just not for me anymore.
I don't really understand all this resistance to relaunch crews, they're only trying to do a job after all!
The TNG relaunch crew is a perfectly canon outcome (no more Data, Riker or Troi Picard would need to replace them.)
so these hard working musicians were treated terribly because they were being part of a band? that seems abit harsh...
I blame the producers for this, they have created this mindset that "only the true crew of the Enterprise/Voyager works" every time I watch Chain of Command, I root for Jellico and boo Riker. Think about it. Cpt Jellico is assigned to command the Enterprise. As such he makes several command decisions and Riker gets arsey with him seemingly because he's not Captain Picard...and we're supposed to dislike Jellico for this? Pull the other one.
They're both treated unfairly because they weren't there first? Actually the bogus crew are:
* Chakotay (originally Cavitt)
* Tom Paris (originally Stadi)
* B'Lanna Torres (originally un-named chief engineer)
* EMH (originally un-named CMO)
* Kes (originally un-named Vulcan nurse)
* Seven of Nine (originally un-named head of Stellar Cartography)
* Neelix (originally a replicator)
This list was compiled using your deifinition of bogus, which is "not the one's who were there first." In fact only Kim, Janeway and Tuvok can be counted as the real crew...
The TNG relaunch crew is a perfectly canon outcome (no more Data, Riker or Troi Picard would need to replace them.)
so these hard working musicians were treated terribly because they were being part of a band? that seems abit harsh...
I blame the producers for this, they have created this mindset that "only the true crew of the Enterprise/Voyager works" every time I watch Chain of Command, I root for Jellico and boo Riker. Think about it. Cpt Jellico is assigned to command the Enterprise. As such he makes several command decisions and Riker gets arsey with him seemingly because he's not Captain Picard...and we're supposed to dislike Jellico for this? Pull the other one.
They're both treated unfairly because they weren't there first? Actually the bogus crew are:
* Chakotay (originally Cavitt)
* Tom Paris (originally Stadi)
* B'Lanna Torres (originally un-named chief engineer)
* EMH (originally un-named CMO)
* Kes (originally un-named Vulcan nurse)
* Seven of Nine (originally un-named head of Stellar Cartography)
* Neelix (originally a replicator)
This list was compiled using your deifinition of bogus, which is "not the one's who were there first." In fact only Kim, Janeway and Tuvok can be counted as the real crew...
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As has been pointed out many times now, the posts about future Voyager books being about a bunch of new characters are wrong.
Of all the series regulars who made it to Earth in Endgame (in other words, leaving out Kes and Neelix, who left the ship earlier), the only ones who won't be back in the books after Full Circle are Janeway (deceased) and Tuvok (serving on the USS Titan). Chakotay, Seven, Tom, B'Elanna, Harry, and the Doctor are all there, along with a few other familiar faces, like Vorik and Reg Barclay.
The relaunch crew can never be the same thing as the real ones.
As for the hard working musicians being treated badly, I can agree with that but I can also understand the reaction. The audience had paid to see the real band and instead they see five totally unknown guys who no one had heard about before and no explanation why.
Both being treated unfairly? No, both are fake.
Oh dear!
Aren't you exaggerating things a bit?
Of course we can always nit-pick those issues, stating that the real TOS crew was he one with Pike as a captain and so on.
But the point is that we did have a crew which we watched for 7 long years which (including both Kes and Seven) can be regarded as the "real" Voyager crew while certain replacements in the books are only names which are hard to identify with.
Just for your information, the name of the original doctor was Dr. Fitzgerald, the nurse's name was T'Prena and the Chief Engineer's name was probably J.Bartlett.
Steve Roby wrote:
Still, there are four important main character missing.
Besides that there are rumors that
Ckakotay and Seven (of all people) are going to leave Starfleet and the ship to go on some special mission. In that case, they won't be on the ship either. Besides that, I wonder if it is an attempt to re-start C/7 as a "nice present" to the Janeway fans in general and the J/C-ers in particular.
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