Opinions about Trip

[bluedana]

First, I don't think Trip is in any way Bones, or even Bones-like. Trip had a kind of evolution representing humanity in general: distrust of anything non-human, but not necessarily hatred. Once exposed to a broader world view, he began a journey of understanding. And that included his relationship with T'Pol, in all its phases. Bones, to me, never had that kind of arc (partly because of the episodic nature of TOS), and frankly, had always struck me as just this close to being a mean old man. As someone who grew up feeling very much the racial outsider and who identified with Spock because of that, I found Bones often very hurtful, for no good reason. Even early-days Trip never was mean.

I also think the whole "stereotype" thing is overused and misused. Is it a stereotype for someone raised in the south to have a favorite food that is quintessentially southern? I hope not. Because my South Carolina-bred inlaws are then walking, talking stereotypes for having macaroni and cheese, cornbread, and collards at Thanksgiving. And I'm another stereotype of cold roast Boston because I prefer my food, um, sort of bland and boiled. There are cultural norms, and there are stereotypes, and I think people confuse them way too often.

Ditto the accent. For heaven's sake, people's accents stopped being completely geographical the instant everyone got a TV. My sister and I, raised together in New England, have completely different accents - and you'd be hard pressed to place either one. My foreign-born mother sometimes sounds more American than I do - and don't get me mad, because you'd need the Rosetta Stone program to decipher my temper tantrum. Do some people from Florida sound like Trip? Yes. Do other people from Florida sound unlike Trip? Yes. We know nothing about where his people are from, so any analysis of what he should and shouldn't sound like is pure speculation.

Finally, it's always been a pet peeve of mine that people stick Trip with the catfish eatin', "dumb hick" label. I've seen this idea all across the internet, and in lots of fan fiction. So, having a thick accent makes you a dumb hick? Then so is Bill Clinton. Having a xeno-learning curve makes you a dumb hick? Then so was Malcolm X. Playing the harmonica makes you a dumb hick? Then so is Stevie Wonder. Reading comic books makes you a dumb hick? Then so is Barack Obama. Eating regional southern foods makes you a dumb hick? Then so is Emeril Legasse. All of the above? No, they don't, in my opinion. I think coming to the dumb hick conclusion regarding any or all of those characteristics says more about our own prejudices than the character, who was, in the Trek world, a warp engineer, a commander on a starship, and pretty damned smart.

Trip is not my favorite character; I find him a little too amiable. I like my heroes way flawed. That's more interesting to me. But I don't think he's stupid, or incompetent. I think he makes a good foil for both Archer and T'Pol, which requires him to be a bit elastic, and less completely filled in. But he is the emotional center of the command crew, and I find that, watching the show, his emotions generally resonate with me because he represents Everyman onscreen.

 

[gblews]

A couple of things:
2. Yearning. This is writing fact: Yearning is a goal, a journey. Writers write characters based on characters' goals, including the pitfalls it takes to achieve said goals. (It's writing fact b/c I think no published writer would disagree with that.) My opinion is it's not about dating, it's about a life choice; your opinion, GB, is that it's about dating.

Not my opinion at all. That's your take on my opinion.

Various perceptions of how the relationship developed or turned out are beside the point. Trip's storyline in season 4 included his "yearning" for an opportunity at a relationship with T'Pol. The fact that you feel the destination was not delineated clearly enough does not take away from the fact that Trip's "yearning", and what he was yearning for, was right there on screen.

And as far as life choices go, Trip's decision to leave Ent was a pretty serious one. That choice was made based partly on what he was yearning for, and feeling he had no chance of acquiring. Additionally, his decision to return to Ent (another life choice), came about before he had even gotten T'Pol to admit to him what was really going on.

Trip had come to grips with his feelings for T'Pol and his confidence in being able to function as Chief Engineer despite those feelings. In addition to showing Trip yearning, it also shows character growth, or at least thats how I saw it.

 

[Middleman]

OK, I'm going to go out on a limb here and risk being reprimanded by the Mods for not playing nice. However, I feel this is a legitimate observation that I have made in the 16 or so months I've been posting on various Star Trek Boards; therefore I'm going to give my opinion.

I feel that there is a direct correlation with a fan's opinion of Tucker and that same fan's opinion of the Tucker / T'Pol relationship. It has been my experience that the more critical a fan is of Tucker; that fan was equally critical of Tucker's relationship with T'Pol. It has also been my experience on various boards that the most anti-Tucker fans are the ones who felt there should have been an Archer / T'Pol relationship instead of with Tucker. In fairness to everyone, the reverse seems to be true as well; Trip's biggest fans seemed to have loved the relationship with T'Pol.

I'm willing to bet that if we studied the various polls that are out there, we can mathematically prove my theory to be correct. I think it's just normal human psychology to think this way. I've seen a poster at another board get bent out of shape when "The Good That Men Do" was being discussed. His claim was that the book's authors had no right invalidating TATV and that Trip should "Stay Dead" so T'Pol could pursue a relationship with Archer and "Trip was a useless character anyway". This is just one example of many I could point out.

As far as Trip being another Bones, I couldn't disagree more. Bluedana said it correctly when he / she said Bones "had always struck me as just this close to being a mean old man." Trip seemed to me like the kind of guy I would want to hang out with. It was very easy for me to warm up to the guy. My feelings might have something to do with the fact the the first episodes of Enterprise I watched were season 3 episodes when his character was already developed. However, I enjoyed him in seasons 1 & 2 as well, when I got around to it. From my POV, while I liked every character in the series, If it wasn't for Trip, I most likely wouldn't have become a fan of Enterprise.

 

[Middleman]

In my opinion, Trip's character was the least affected by bad writing, he was the most consistent and the most human character, but having him never declare his feelings to T'Pol was unforgivable if you ask me. He never did strike me as someone who doesn't have the guts to do so.

I agree with you that "having him never declare his feelings to T'Pol was unforgivable", however, the fact that it was never done (overtly, it was done subtlety in Terra Prime IMO) was, in fact, bad writing.

And this is mainly Coto's failure, first and foremost. For example, Trip had a great chance to come out in "Bound," but instead he chose to take the easy way by saying something profoundly cowardly as: "This thing between us ain't that big of a deal."

Again, bad writing IMO.

 

[commodore64]

Blue, your mean old man is some people's "lovable crumedgeon." I do think Bones was a lot more pessimistic than Trip, but as said before -- Berman and Braga intended Trip to be "the Bones": the friend, the emotional one.

I feel that there is a direct correlation with a fan's opinion of Tucker and that same fan's opinion of the Tucker / T'Pol relationship. It has been my experience that the more critical a fan is of Tucker; that fan was equally critical of Tucker's relationship with T'Pol. It has also been my experience on various boards that the most anti-Tucker fans are the ones who felt there should have been an Archer / T'Pol relationship instead of with Tucker. In fairness to everyone, the reverse seems to be true as well; Trip's biggest fans seemed to have loved the relationship with T'Pol.

I wouldn't say that for many reasons:
1. There's a huge fan of Trip who started the A/T'P bulletin board.
2. I loved Archer's relationship with T'Pol and wouldn't have changed it.
3. Again, I'm not anti-Tucker. I have some criticisms about his character, as I do with other characters. In fact, I think many of his strengths weren't used effectively by the writers in the latter part of the series.
4. I never wanted Tucker to die. I don't care if he comes back or not. I just think most of the ideas put forward by fans are well, not to be mean, but ... silly. I think Mangels idea of how Trip comes back doesn't really serve the character, but is plausible. I just think his handling of the characters and his actual writing is terrible.

You know, one more thing, Middle. Why is it okay to criticize Archer, Enterprise as a whole, Berman and/or Braga, but it's not okay to find fault with Trip occasionally? Trip is a character, and no character is perfect. And why does criticizing him make me "anti-Tucker"?

On a personal note, it sure would be easier for me to just say, "Yeah, Tucker. What a dumb ass" and move on. But, I don't think that so why indicate that's true?

If it wasn't for Trip, I most likely wouldn't have become a fan of Enterprise.

You know, I'll say this -- if it wasn't for pretty much all the characters, even though Archer is my favorite, I wouldn't be a fan of Enterprise. I thought the TOS formula worked well.

Not my opinion at all. That's your take on my opinion

Thanks for the clarification. You know my thoughts on T/T'P, so I won't bore you here with them, especially since they aren't germane to the topic.

 

[Middleman]

I wouldn't say that for many reasons:
1. There's a huge fan of Trip who started the A/T'P bulletin board.
2. I loved Archer's relationship with T'Pol and wouldn't have changed it.
3. Again, I'm not anti-Tucker. I have some criticisms about his character, as I do with other characters. In fact, I think many of his strengths weren't used effectively by the writers in the latter part of the series.
4. I never wanted Tucker to die. I don't care if he comes back or not. I just think most of the ideas put forward by fans are well, not to be mean, but ... silly. I think Mangels idea of how Trip comes back doesn't really serve the character, but is plausible. I just think his handling of the characters and his actual writing is terrible.

You know, one more thing, Middle. Why is it okay to criticize Archer, Enterprise as a whole, Berman and/or Braga, but it's not okay to find fault with Trip occasionally? Trip is a character, and no character is perfect. And why does criticizing him make me "anti-Tucker"?

On a personal note, it sure would be easier for me to just say, "Yeah, Tucker. What a dumb ass" and move on. But, I don't think that so why indicate that's true?

I generally don't like painting with broad brushes but I do believe that, "statistically speaking", there is a direct correlation. As you know, that doesn't mean it's true in every case, just more often than not, within a range. You were certainly not the person I was talking about in my example, so I don't see the need to be defensive (my apologies if you are not being defensive, but that is how I read it).

If it wasn't for Trip, I most likely wouldn't have become a fan of Enterprise.

You know, I'll say this -- if it wasn't for pretty much all the characters, even though Archer is my favorite, I wouldn't be a fan of Enterprise. I thought the TOS formula worked well.

I don't know how to answer you on that, other than to say "that's my opinion". Maybe I have a "Man Crush" on the the guy, or something like that.

 

[Penguin]

I agree with middleman about fans.

It does seem that tthose who are anti-Trip sare pro Archer/TPol and those who ae anti-A/TP are pro TnT.

Such is life.

 

[Middleman]

I agree with middleman about fans.

It does seem that tthose who are anti-Trip sare pro Archer/TPol and those who ae anti-A/TP are pro TnT.

Such is life.

This happens in everyday real life; so why shouldn't it happen in fandom.

This could be a little off topic but it reminds me of the days back in High School or College with romances of close friends. I think everyone has been through something like this back in the day. Take this hypothetical example:
You have a very close friend named Polly and another very close friend named John. You know John likes Polly and you think John and Polly are perfect for each other. Now along comes this guy named Chuck. You know Chuck and he's a nice guy, but you fell Polly and John belong together. Well, low and behold Polly and Chuck eventually hook-up. Now you start feeling bad for John and start to resent Chuck. The closer Polly and Chuck get, the more you hate Chuck. Now tell me that didn't happen back in HS.

Once again, I am talking in generalities and not about any one real life person. My choice of names in the example is all in good fun.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

OK, I'm going to go out on a limb here and risk being reprimanded by the Mods for not playing nice. However, I feel this is a legitimate observation that I have made in the 16 or so months I've been posting on various Star Trek Boards; therefore I'm going to give my opinion.

I feel that there is a direct correlation with a fan's opinion of Tucker and that same fan's opinion of the Tucker / T'Pol relationship. It has been my experience that the more critical a fan is of Tucker; that fan was equally critical of Tucker's relationship with T'Pol. It has also been my experience on various boards that the most anti-Tucker fans are the ones who felt there should have been an Archer / T'Pol relationship instead of with Tucker. In fairness to everyone, the reverse seems to be true as well; Trip's biggest fans seemed to have loved the relationship with T'Pol.

Well now! That only took 23 posts and less than 24 hours. I was really hoping it would be longer. But hey, I'm an optimist.

No, Middleman, you are not playing nice. You leaped off-topic into a contentious tangent and launched into a big diatribe about other posters. Perhaps you missed my initial post; please have a look.

To be clear: this is a Trip discussion thread. It's only natural that Archer and T'Pol will come up in this discussion, because of Trip's connection to each of them. Please endeavor to make such mention relevant to the topic, i.e., your opinion of Trip.

This is not a "Trip/T'Pol vs Archer/T'Pol" discussion thread. If you want one of those, start a new one. I don't give a rip about statistics or polls or other boards, or what anyone thinks "the fans" think about this tangential subject, or any "hypothetical" situation back in high school. NONE of it is relevant to the current discussion. Let's have no more shipper posturing in this thread. Please do not test me in this matter.

 

[gblews]

Not my opinion at all. That's your take on my opinion

Thanks for the clarification. You know my thoughts on T/T'P, so I won't bore you here with them, especially since they aren't germane to the topic.

Our various opinions on the relationship certainly are not germane to the current topic. You'll note that I also refrained from offering my opinions on the relationship, so no worries.

But to further clarify, in a discussion of Trip's motivations, especially in season 4 (and I assumed you were including season 4 in your overall perception that Trip did not "yearn" for anything), the relationship is germane since it was shown to be Trip's primary motivation, and the source of his yearning in season 4, for better or worse.

I'de be interested in your response if you're so inclined.

 

[commodore64]

^ I don't mind talking about it, but I'm not sure there's really anything to say and HR seems to be nudging us away. I don't really see Trip's motivations as his yearning for T'Pol for several reasons that maybe I didn't make clear:
* Yearning for a guy/gal is a sad motivation for a character, as if the character has other no value than "hey, he can fall in love"
* His "yearning" never resolved victorious, meaning it was either a poor choice or it wasn't his yearning

Yearning for something and achieving it is kind of what writers intend. The whole idea is to give the character an obtainable goal, but one that's really, really hard to reach. Besides, I think Trip has more value than just a boyfriend. Don't you?

Thanks for the clarification, Middleman. I did take offense, mostly because I really dislike being told what I think. I appreciate you making your point clearer, but still disagree with your generalization about A/T'Pers. And sorry there was trouble to be found there.

 

[Middleman]

Thanks for the clarification, Middleman. I did take offense, mostly because I really dislike being told what I think. I appreciate you making your point clearer

No problem, sometimes I don't make myself clear the first time through.

but still disagree with your generalization about A/T'Pers.

Let's just agree to disagree on that one.

And sorry there was trouble to be found there.

No need to apologize, I had a feeling I was pushing the envelope on my last post. This is a past time for me and I hope that we all collectively bring some enjoyment to each other. The minute this stops being fun, I'll be gone (if I'm not tossed out first).

Yearning for a guy/gal is a sad motivation for a character, as if the character has other no value than "hey, he can fall in love"
* His "yearning" never resolved victorious, meaning it was either a poor choice or it wasn't his yearning

Yearning for something and achieving it is kind of what writers intend. The whole idea is to give the character an obtainable goal, but one that's really, really hard to reach. Besides, I think Trip has more value than just a boyfriend. Don't you?

Now back on topic. I'm going to disagree with you here. Love is a very powerful character motivation. Some of the greatest characters in books and movies were motivated solely by this very powerful emotion. I agree with gblews that Trip's main, if not sole character motivation for the last half of Season 3 and all of Season 4 was his love for T'Pol. It didn't create a pitiful character in my mind, regardless of how the "yearning" was ultimately resolved.

There is one other famous fictional character that comes to my mind who is very much like Trip. His sole motivation (IMO) was love and this love was never resolved successfully. No one would dare say his choice was poor or he was a pitiful character. The character was Rhett Butler and the movie (and book) was "Gone with the Wind". I find the parallel striking. Rhett's love for Scarlett defined him; it wasn't much different for Trip in the last 2 seasons.

 

[commodore64]

So Archer is Ashleigh Wilks? I don't know, it's been a long time since I've seen Gone with the Wind. I think Rhett's primary motivation was living through the Civil War.

Sure, a yearning can be love when the story is a love story. I don't recall Enterprise being a love story though. And Rhett gets his yearning, Scarlet, resolved. He marries her, has a child with her and then himself realizes he can't live with her, that possibly the things he loved/loves about her doesn't make her a good wife or mother.

Trip never truly gets the girl. It comes close, I suppose, but no cigar.

 

[Middleman]

So Archer is Ashleigh Wilks? I don't know, it's been a long time since I've seen Gone with the Wind. I think Rhett's primary motivation was living through the Civil War.

I never said anything about Archer. Archer is important to Trip in Seasons 1 & 2 but not in Seasons 3 & 4 for either Trip or T'Pol. He's practically not in the equation in terms of Trip's Character. Surviving the Civil War was "Gone With the Wind's" central theme, Love was Butler's motivation.

Sure, a yearning can be love when the story is a love story. I don't recall Enterprise being a love story though. And Rhett gets his yearning, Scarlet, resolved. He marries her, has a child with her and then himself realizes he can't live with her, that possibly the things he loved/loves about her doesn't make her a good wife or mother.

And he leaves her, truly an unrequited love. Enterprise is not a love story but any good series has a love interest.

Trip never truly gets the girl. It comes close, I suppose, but no cigar.

That's a matter of opinion. If Tucker didn't get the cigar, he certainly was smoking more than anyone else.

I'm done with this thread. The mods are going to ride me like a pony if I continue to contribute.

 

[Anna Yolei]

I think the crazy amount of love Trip gets compared to other characters has a lot to do with the process of elimination:

Archer: There are far too many people on this board who are at best apathetic to this character, I won't bother to explain this one.

T'Pol: The reasons across the board have been a bit of a mixed bag. Some liked the cold ice princess of seasons one and two and others enjoyed her...changing in seasons three and four. Overall, I liked the character, but I don't think she was ever really allowed to develop much independent from either Archer or Trip---and that's a shame.

Phlox: Pretty well liked thanks to John B., but since UPN wanted more fanservice at every turn was not given nearly as much time to shine as he should have.

Reed: Same deal times ten. I can't even remember him being the main focus of any given episode, even if he did get some play with Section 31 towards the end of the show.

Mayweather and Sato: Who are they?

By process of elimination, the character of Tucker stands out quite a bit. Like Commie, I wasn't wowed by the character, but I did think Connor Trinneer did an amazing job with what was (in my opinion) a generic role--and the acting from CT is what made a world of difference.

 

[commodore64]

I never said anything about Archer.

No, that was my lame attempt at a joke. It probably would've been funnier had I chosen someone else. I didn't mean that in a snide way; I meant that truly.

Archer is important to Trip in Seasons 1 & 2 but not in Seasons 3 & 4 for either Trip or T'Pol. He's practically not in the equation in terms of Trip's Character. Surviving the Civil War was "Gone With the Wind's" central theme, Love was Butler's motivation.

I haven't seen the movie in a number of years, and my point about him surviving the Civil War was also a joke. I gotta let this one go as I really can't argue about Gone with the Wind having not seen it in a while. You win. Uncle.

And he leaves her, truly an unrequited love. Enterprise is not a love story but any good series has a love interest.

By leaves her you mean dies? He does. But something happens before he dies that the audience never knows about that seems to put an end to their relationship ... at least that's what we're lead to believe.

I will say this: not every good series has a love story. In fact, many good series don't.

That's a matter of opinion. If Tucker didn't get the cigar, he certainly was smoking more than anyone else.

I'll agree with you there. I think Trip probably got the most booty calls of T'Pol and women in general. I don't have a scorecard though; that's just my general impression.

I'm done with this thread. The mods are going to ride me like a pony if I continue to contribute.

I don't think that's the case. But, if you want to open a thread about Trip/T'Pol, I think HR indicated that would be fine. Heck, you can even open a Gone with the Wind thread. Maybe other people will have read/seen it more recently and can make more educated conversation about it than I can.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

But to further clarify, in a discussion of Trip's motivations, especially in season 4 (and I assumed you were including season 4 in your overall perception that Trip did not "yearn" for anything), the relationship is germane since it was shown to be Trip's primary motivation, and the source of his yearning in season 4, for better or worse.

I'de be interested in your response if you're so inclined.

^ I don't mind talking about it, but I'm not sure there's really anything to say and HR seems to be nudging us away.

If you need to bring up Trip's relationships with other characters in order to make a point about your view of Trip, as gblews did above, that's fine.

What is not relevant is dragging in a comparison of (or competition between) different relationships on the show--which is better or worse, who should have ended up with whom (if anyone) and why, etc. etc. and so forth. None of that belongs in the discussion at hand.

 

[Sisko_is_my_captain]

Ditto the accent. For heaven's sake, people's accents stopped being completely geographical the instant everyone got a TV. My sister and I, raised together in New England, have completely different accents - and you'd be hard pressed to place either one. My foreign-born mother sometimes sounds more American than I do - and don't get me mad, because you'd need the Rosetta Stone program to decipher my temper tantrum. Do some people from Florida sound like Trip? Yes. Do other people from Florida sound unlike Trip? Yes. We know nothing about where his people are from, so any analysis of what he should and shouldn't sound like is pure speculation.

Agreed. In my case, I was born and raised in Georgia and South Carolina. I've got a southern accent, but it's not as strong as many I've heard; to boot, my accent is more of a North Carolinian accent, since my parents are from there. I say "itn't it" instead of "isn't it" most of the time. My accent is mellowed out, however, from moderate tv watching as a child. My wife, born and raised in SC, has almost no accent whatsoever (IMO) because she was allowed to watch much more tv as a kid.

If Trip sounds like he's from Oklahoma, who's to say his parents aren't from there? Heck, American accents have diverged into their wide variety from English accents in just the past 300 years. In another 200 years, who's to say what accents we'll have?

BTW, something interesting I've heard before is that Southerners have accents that are most similar to the original colonial accent; also, we're supposedly better able to pick up accents in foreign languages relative to people from other areas of the US. Don't know if that's true, but if so, it's kind of cool.

 

[lceb]

About love being the motivation of Trip on season 4, I agree more or less. I don't think it is in any way demeaning for the character, most people are motivated by love in some periods of their lives and it can be strong enough to change a person's perception of the world.
However I believe that there are occasions that show that there is much more there. One such case is Home, where he steps back and accepts T'Pol's decision. The fangirl in me wants him to go fight Koss and do everything possible to stop the marriage, but Trip has grown and does not react impulsively any more. He is hurt, but supports T'Pol -and her mother- in what is extremely important for them, he thinks about concequences.
Then, during the Vulcan arc, he leaves T'Pol and Archer behind, in grave danger and goes out to stop a war, against orders. He becomes a true leader, a person who can think a step ahead and make hard decisions. There is much more complexity and depth in Trip than just a young man in love.

 

[Anna Yolei]

^
If there was, season four never let on. Every other scene Trip had was with him and T'Pol discussing their feelings, but never really moving anywhere. I'll grant you it does show maturity on Trip's part not to bust up T'Pol's wedding and interfere with Vulcan culture (I don't think he would have sat still for this in season one at all, romantic investments or not), but damn. Having watched seaosn four back-to-back on Sci Fi recently, it was more irritating the second time around.

Trip smoked a lot of cigars, liek Middleman mentioned, but he didn't inhale