Tuvix

[teya]

^ Oh, I understand your position.

I just couldn't hold it, for the reasons already stated.

 

[JustKate]

Exactly, because in this case you're both right.

No matter what choice was made, you would be right and wrong.

Yep. I agree. I suspect Teya will not, but we shall see.

 

[exodus]

^ Yep. I agree. I suspect Teya will not, but we shall see.

Shiiiiii, she better not.

 

[JustKate]

^ Oh, I understand your position.

I just couldn't hold it, for the reasons already stated.

And I understand that, too.

Gosh, from a Trek BBS perspective, what we have here is practically a group hug!

 

[exodus]

^ Oh, I understand your position.

I just couldn't hold it, for the reasons already stated.

And I understand that, too.

Gosh, from a Trek BBS perspective, what we have here is practically a group hug!

"Hold me closer, tiny dancer.."

 

[teya]

^ Oh, I understand your position.

I just couldn't hold it, for the reasons already stated.

And I understand that, too.

Gosh, from a Trek BBS perspective, what we have here is practically a group hug!

"Hold me closer, tiny dancer.."

Aw, man, he's singing my song!

Seriously, old coot that I am, but that was considered my song way back in the day... Being tiny, and a dancer, and the girl in my HS most likely to simply take off one day, dreaming of the road...

Eh, sorry. Got off track there...

Group hug!

 

[JustKate]

^ I love that song. I won't say it's my favorite Elton but it's way up there.

 

[JustKate]

Oh, and wouldn't you actually be a cootess, Teya?

(Teya and I are around the same age, folks, so she's now free to call me an "old codgerina" if she wants to.)

 

[teya]

Oh, and wouldn't you actually be a cootess, Teya?

(Teya and I are around the same age, folks, so she's now free to call me an "old codgerina" if she wants to.)

cootesse.... I like that!

 

[JustKate]

^ Oh, you are so right - that "e" on the end is you, honey!

 

[Daikirai]

Tuvix rated a 100 on the creepometer, but he went on to protray Romiet in London.

Janeway might have murdered him, but who wouldn't want to kill someone that creepy?

 

[Gary7]

For me, it's "Your Song"... one of the most sincerely sounding heartfelt songs I felt ever came out of Elton's repertoire.

 

[Michael]

Like JustKate said, either way someone was going to die, so Janeway made the pragmatic choice.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with that position. I always felt Janeway's decision at the end of Tuvix was absolutely wrong and immoral. At the point of Tuvix' creation both Tuvok and Neelix were de facto dead. They did not exist. Tuvix, on the other hand, existed. Who was she to decide that Tuvix' existence had to end? The Doctor was the only one onboard the Voyager who made some sense, although I think he should have tried to save Tuvix or at least be more persuasive towards Janeway.

As forcing Tuvix to undergo the procedure violated his rights as an individual.

Exactly. And whenever I watch this episode I find it pretty disgusting how no-one seems to step up for Tuvix. Don't get me wrong, I like the episode, mostly because Tom Wright delivers a wonderful performance and I like the thought-provoking moral dilemma. But I think almost everyone was mischaracterized in this episode. The odd thing is, that I always felt that the story is presented in such a way as to allow for the viewer to sympathize with Tuvix. It's as if the writers purposely portrayed Janeway and company as antagonists.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Tuvok and Neelix do not exist.

The fact that they were able to be recovered at all, suggests otherwise.

 

[Michael]

Tuvok and Neelix do not exist.

The fact that they were able to be recovered at all, suggests otherwise.

No, it doesn't. They were not existent. What was left of them was inside Tuvix. But that wasn't enough for the crew of the Voyager. So he had to die.

 

[Praetor]

Like JustKate said, either way someone was going to die, so Janeway made the pragmatic choice.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with that position. I always felt Janeway's decision at the end of Tuvix was absolutely wrong and immoral. At the point of Tuvix' creation both Tuvok and Neelix were de facto dead. They did not exist. Tuvix, on the other hand, existed. Who was she to decide that Tuvix' existence had to end? The Doctor was the only one onboard the Voyager who made some sense, although I think he should have tried to save Tuvix or at least be more persuasive towards Janeway.

I may not be fully remembering the episode properly, but wasn't their some notion that Tuvix couldn't go on existing, that he was molecularly unstable or something? That's where I was basing my 'someone was going to die' bit from. If I'm misremembering, I must say that I find Janeway's position that much more difficult to maintain as a morally correct one...

Pragmatic still? Yes. Morally correct? Not so much.

As forcing Tuvix to undergo the procedure violated his rights as an individual.

Exactly. And whenever I watch this episode I find it pretty disgusting how no-one seems to step up for Tuvix. Don't get me wrong, I like the episode, mostly because Tom Wright delivers a wonderful performance and I like the thought-provoking moral dilemma. But I think almost everyone was mischaracterized in this episode. The odd thing is, that I always felt that the story is presented in such a way as to allow for the viewer to sympathize with Tuvix. It's as if the writers purposely portrayed Janeway and company as antagonists.

This I agree with, and what's more I think the scenario overall was completely mischaracterized. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm not opposed to Our Noble Heroes being wrong. However, if they were going to play up Janeway and the crew as being in the moral wrong in 'Tuvix' as seemed to be the case, they should have acknowledged it and dealt with the consequences of their actions.

 

[Michael]

I may not be fully remembering the episode properly, but wasn't their some notion that Tuvix couldn't go on existing, that he was molecularly unstable or something?

Hm, to be honest, now that you say that, I can't really remember. And I don't have the episode at my disposal to look it up. Damn.

However, for what it's worth, the Memory Alpha article doesn't mention any molecular instability or some such.

However, if they were going to play up Janeway and the crew as being in the moral wrong in 'Tuvix' as seemed to be the case, they should have acknowledged it and dealt with the consequences of their actions.

Exactly. The whole episode plays out as if Janeway is doing the wrong thing. We're encouraged to side with Tuvix. But it ends in a way that suggests that Janeway was right with her decision. It's as if the writer's suddenly didn't care for the character of Tuvix anymore. Maybe it didn't help that Tom Wright played Tuvix all that sympathetically.

Either way, I always felt there's something inherently wrong with the way this episode was handled.

 

[teya]

I may not be fully remembering the episode properly, but wasn't their some notion that Tuvix couldn't go on existing, that he was molecularly unstable or something? That's where I was basing my 'someone was going to die' bit from. If I'm misremembering, I must say that I find Janeway's position that much more difficult to maintain as a morally correct one...

Nope. Tuvix was stable.

 

[Praetor]

I may not be fully remembering the episode properly, but wasn't their some notion that Tuvix couldn't go on existing, that he was molecularly unstable or something?

Hm, to be honest, now that you say that, I can't really remember. And I don't have the episode at my disposal to look it up. Damn.

However, for what it's worth, the Memory Alpha article doesn't mention any molecular instability or some such.

However, if they were going to play up Janeway and the crew as being in the moral wrong in 'Tuvix' as seemed to be the case, they should have acknowledged it and dealt with the consequences of their actions.

Exactly. The whole episode plays out as if Janeway is doing the wrong thing. We're encouraged to side with Tuvix. But it ends in a way that suggests that Janeway was right with her decision. It's as if the writer's suddenly didn't care for the character of Tuvix anymore. Maybe it didn't help that Tom Wright played Tuvix all that sympathetically.

Either way, I always felt there's something inherently wrong with the way this episode was handled.

Totally agreed. As with several key opportunities like this.

I may not be fully remembering the episode properly, but wasn't their some notion that Tuvix couldn't go on existing, that he was molecularly unstable or something? That's where I was basing my 'someone was going to die' bit from. If I'm misremembering, I must say that I find Janeway's position that much more difficult to maintain as a morally correct one...

Nope. Tuvix was stable.

Taking your word as face value, then it's much more difficult for me to see Janeway's position as morally tenable.

On the one hand, you have a person who should have never existed except for an accident, yet he does indeed live. Then, rather miraculously, they have the ability to separate him into two people via a willful choice, yes or no. So on the one hand, his existence is an 'accident' yet he exists anyway. On the other they have the ability to 'fix' it...

Crap. I see it now. It's an abortion allegory. I get it.

Oh, how I long for my 'simpler' katra-based Tuvix...

 

[kimc]

For me, it's "Your Song"... one of the most sincerely sounding heartfelt songs I felt ever came out of Elton's repertoire.

I'm a "Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me" fan myself.

As for Tuvix, if I were one of the crewmembers stuck inside him I would want to be released myself. While I love to think that I'm the type of person who would stand between an oncoming car and a small child sacrificing my life for someone who is basically another version of me plus someone else just doesn't seem the same.