Tuvix

[Gary7]

^ I really like the idea, Praetor. It has a lot of merit, although we lose the guest actor (who did a really good job, IMHO). The only thing is, during materialization a person is essentially in "stasis". So, how could his katra have transferred? Or is it that upon materialization, that Tuvok realizes his severe duress and transfers before slipping into unconsciousness? Maybe reaches over a hand to touch Neelix and makes the shift?

Definitely Neelix and Tuvok... Kes would have made for more complications. Kesvok?

 

[Praetor]

^ I really like the idea, Praetor. It has a lot of merit, although we lose the guest actor (who did a really good job, IMHO).

Thanks, and yeah, that's really the only loss on my scorecard.

The only thing is, during materialization a person is essentially in "stasis". So, how could his katra have transferred? Or is it that upon materialization, that Tuvok realizes his severe duress and transfers before slipping into unconsciousness? Maybe reaches over a hand to touch Neelix and makes the shift?

I was thinking it would have happened while on the planet, right before they beam up. Tuvok appears to lose consciousness afterward. So then when they're beamed up, Tuvok seems all the more dead, because he's an empty shell. It would have made a great teaser.

Definitely Neelix and Tuvok... Kes would have made for more complications. Kesvok?

Eek. Yeah. Neelix and Tuvok all the way. Plus, Kes gets to be the deus ex machina in my scenario.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Janeway made the right decision.

She had two choices: Either condemn *two* people to die (Neelix and Tuvok) or only one (Tuvix).

Either way, somebody was going to die. Why not ensure the option with fewer deaths? Which would you prefer, killing one person or two?

Why does Tuvix's right to exist outweigh that of Tuvok and Neelix? The "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one" has already been mentioned in this very thread.

As for the analogy of donating organs: Rather apt, that one. We aren't being *forced* to do it, as Tuvix indirectly was, but you can't deny there is pressure on us to give up our organs. We're constantly inundated with it. Those who have chosen not to donate their organs after they die are looked down on as selfish.

 

[Praetor]

You know, having watched TOS's 'The Enemy Within' last night, it's almost the exact opposite scenario from 'Tuvix' (ignoring the greater technobabble of VGR.) The gentle Kirk finally manages to convince the violent Kirk that they need each other to survive. Tuvix was adamant that he wanted to live on, but in doing so he essentially condemned two men to die. I have to agree that Janeway made the right decision for the situation, but I don't think the situation was handled very well in the episode to start with.

I wonder if 'The Enemy Within' inspired 'Tuvix' more directly that I'd suspected?

I still prefer my transporter-less version of 'Tuvix.'

 

[teya]

Another point is

Why did the Doctor refused to do it if it wasn't unethical or a wrong thing to do? The Doctor had in the past had always been ethical (which I don't think you can say about all of Janeway's actions).

Because it goes against the Hippocratic oath.

It's clearly in violation of Tuvix's rights as an individual to decide his own fate.

And he was an individual, recognized as one in the ship's manifest, a Bridge officer, and was described as "more than the sum of his parts."

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It's clearly in violation of Tuvix's rights as an individual to decide his own fate.

What about Tuvok and Neelix? Don't they have rights as well?

 

[teya]

It's clearly in violation of Tuvix's rights as an individual to decide his own fate.

What about Tuvok and Neelix? Don't they have rights as well?

Tuvok and Neelix do not exist. They were the parents of a child, Tuvix, who was created by sybiogenetic reproduction. That this was reproduction was *clearly* stated in the episode.

 

[teya]

As for the analogy of donating organs: Rather apt, that one. We aren't being *forced* to do it, as Tuvix indirectly was, but you can't deny there is pressure on us to give up our organs. We're constantly inundated with it. Those who have chosen not to donate their organs after they die are looked down on as selfish.

Actually, a better example would be *live* organ donation, particularly a split-liver graft.

In this, a portion of the donor's liver is transplanted. It's a risky procedure for the donor that can lead to hemorrhage & death.

Guess what?

No one is forced to undergo a split liver graft.

You can't be forced to undergo a procedure that potentially risks your life.

 

[Praetor]

It's clearly in violation of Tuvix's rights as an individual to decide his own fate.

What about Tuvok and Neelix? Don't they have rights as well?

Tuvok and Neelix do not exist. They were the parents of a child, Tuvix, who was created by sybiogenetic reproduction. That this was reproduction was *clearly* stated in the episode.

...which makes the argument that much stronger for the episode to acknowledge that Janeway was doing what she was doing because she had an opportunity to get her two men that she felt she needed back, and deal with the ramifications of that in a realistic, dramatic way, rather than just trying to justify her in some way as being morally right.

 

[teya]

What about Tuvok and Neelix? Don't they have rights as well?

Tuvok and Neelix do not exist. They were the parents of a child, Tuvix, who was created by sybiogenetic reproduction. That this was reproduction was *clearly* stated in the episode.

...which makes the argument that much stronger for the episode to acknowledge that Janeway was doing what she was doing because she had an opportunity to get her two men that she felt she needed back, and deal with the ramifications of that in a realistic, dramatic way, rather than just trying to justify her in some way as being morally right.

Absolutely.

I'd still consider her action immoral, but I can buy the argument that she's doing the *pragmatic* thing.

I cannot at all accept the argument that she's doing the moral thing.

 

[john titor]

Janeway was admiral material for that decision alone.

 

[JustKate]

I'd still consider her action immoral, but I can buy the argument that she's doing the *pragmatic* thing.

I cannot at all accept the argument that she's doing the moral thing.

I can buy it. If it had gone the other way and she'd decided to save Tuvix, I can buy that as a moral act, too. Somebody was going to die. She had to pick. She picked. There was no easy answer here, as far as I can see.

 

[Praetor]

Janeway was admiral material for that decision alone.

Based on the other Admirals we've seen? Absolutely.

And I agree with teya that it wasn't the moral thing as much as the pragmatic thing. In this context, I don't think there was an absolute right. Like JustKate said, either way someone was going to die, so Janeway made the pragmatic choice. She picked the two people she knew and knew she needed rather than the one she didn't, not unlike what happened with the Doctor when he had to make a choice between Harry Kim and Ensign Jetal in 'Latent Image.'

I'd just like to have seen some dramatic follow-up to it later on. Come to think of it, 'Latent Image' was already a thematic follow-up for 'Tuvix,' so it's a shame there wasn't actual direct follow-up.

 

[JustKate]

^ Oh, definitely some kind of follow-up would have been good. Of course, that is something we could say about almost every Voyager episode.

I just don't see this as a black-and-white issue - decision A is moral, decision B is immoral. If I were put in such a situation, I would find myself torn, not just for pragmatic reasons but for moral reasons as well.

 

[Gary7]

Ultimately, Tuvix was the product of a horrible accident that took the lives of two men. HE WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO EXIST. Who knows whether he'd remain healthy for the long run? Or what kind of psychological problems would ensue, with the knowledge of both men?

Granted, if they couldn't find a way to restore Tuvok and Neelix, Tuvix would have continued on as-is. But then you're presented with a highly probable way to restore things the way they were. Tuvix did not let the Tuvok side of him see the logic of the situation, that restoration would have to take precedence... and Janeway was forced to take the matters into her hands. I just wish she hadn't handled it quite that way... at least with some dignity for Tuvix.

 

[teya]

I just don't see this as a black-and-white issue - decision A is moral, decision B is immoral. If I were put in such a situation, I would find myself torn, not just for pragmatic reasons but for moral reasons as well.

30 years in healthcare, I have to side with the Doc.

I also look at it from a transplant perspective--because my late sweetie was a transplant pt. His brother, who is a schizophrenic & alcoholic, could have given him a kidney, but refused. Should his brother have been forced to undergo surgery and put his own life at risk?

Even though the end result was that I lost my SO, there's no way either he or I would have been comfortable with *forcing* his brother to undergo the procedure. It's simply immoral--it violates his brother's rights as an individual.

 

[JustKate]

^ I agree. It would have violated his brother's rights as an individual. No disagreement here.

 

[teya]

^ As forcing Tuvix to undergo the procedure violated his rights as an individual.

 

[JustKate]

Yes, I know. Edit: And I understand perfectly what you mean, at least I think so.

But as others have pointed out, there is another side to the issue because there are - or were - two other individuals here with rights. Are they dead and therefore their rights have disappeared?

I don't know. Death, it seems, isn't always clearcut.

Hence the dilemma.

 

[exodus]

Yes, I know. Edit: And I understand perfectly what you mean, at least I think so.

But as others have pointed out, there is another side to the issue because there are - or were - two other individuals here with rights. Are they dead and therefore their rights have disappeared?

I don't know. Death, it seems, isn't always clearcut.

Hence the dilemma.

Exactly, because in this case you're both right.

No matter what choice was made, you would be right and wrong.