Tuvix

[Miss Chicken]

A sentient being's right should always come before any rights a non-sentient being has.

At the point Janeway's decision to force the procedure on Tuvix there was absolute proof that Tuvix was sentient and absolute proof that he wanted to live. There was no proof that Tuvok or Neelix were sentient. Therefore Tuvix right to life should have trumped any rights that Neelix and Tuvok had at that point.

And Kes's feelings should not have been taken into account at all. Someone right to life is a much stronger right than some being 'right to be with the man she loved". Nor should Voyager's need for their two crew members have trumped Tuvix's right to life. If Tuvok was killed at any time in the voyage the crew would have adapted, and they certainly would have had no trouble managing without a cook.

 

[kimc]

There was no proof that Tuvok or Neelix were sentient.

According to Tuvix, Neelix and Tuvok were alive within him. Okay, that may have been just a line to make Kes feel comfortable but imagine if you will you're trapped with another person within a third body that is developing it's own personality as a mix of yours and your fellow prisoner's. Imagine if your combined will to live was being demonstrated by this third person as THEIR will to live but it's really yours but you can't express it...

Actually, now that I think about it that would be a pretty cool horror story - tell it from the POV of one or both of the trapped people.

 

[Red Ranger]

Tuvix is definitely a commentary on abortion, and it comes strongly down on the side of the mother. It does seem rather cold-blooded how Janeway dispenses justice for Tuvok and Neelix at the expense, of course, of Tuvix. I always thought the combined character was more interesting than his constituent parts, although I always liked Neelix. I'm sure in some parallel universe where the Voyager crew was unable to figure out how to bring back their former crewmates, Tuvix continued to live. I think it would have been more visually interesting if Tuvix looked more like Tuvok but with Neelix's skin, eye and hair color. -- RR

 

[Michael]

According to Tuvix, Neelix and Tuvok were alive within him. Okay, that may have been just a line to make Kes feel comfortable but imagine if you will you're trapped with another person within a third body that is developing it's own personality as a mix of yours and your fellow prisoner's. Imagine if your combined will to live was being demonstrated by this third person as THEIR will to live but it's really yours but you can't express it...

I hate to disagree, but I don't think that's what they wanted to imply at all. As you said, Tuvix' line was just a figurative way to express his existence and calm Kes. He was both, Neelix and Tuvok. And yet he was someone else, too. He was Tuvix, a sentient being.

 

[Akiraprise]

And I understand that, too.

Gosh, from a Trek BBS perspective, what we have here is practically a group hug!

"Hold me closer, tiny dancer.."

Aw, man, he's singing my song!

Seriously, old coot that I am, but that was considered my song way back in the day... Being tiny, and a dancer, and the girl in my HS most likely to simply take off one day, dreaming of the road...

Eh, sorry. Got off track there...

Group hug!

Will a Tuvix thread actually not end in a flaming pile of paper bagged dog poo? Heavens to betsy!

 

[Michael]

Will a Tuvix thread actually not end in a flaming pile of paper bagged dog poo? Heavens to betsy!

Yup, that's better than last time we had one of these.

 

[JustKate]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with that position. I always felt Janeway's decision at the end of Tuvix was absolutely wrong and immoral. At the point of Tuvix' creation both Tuvok and Neelix were de facto dead. They did not exist. Tuvix, on the other hand, existed. Who was she to decide that Tuvix' existence had to end? The Doctor was the only one onboard the Voyager who made some sense, although I think he should have tried to save Tuvix or at least be more persuasive towards Janeway.

All I can say is, it doesn't seen nearly as clearcut to me. And I think that demonstrates, really, the...the power of this episode. That one person can say, "A is the moral choice, no doubt about it," whereas another person can say with equal certainty, "No, B is the moral choice, no doubt about it," whereas another person (and you may call her JustKate, if you like) says, "Aaaauuuugh! To me, they both sound like moral choices and immoral choices, at the same time."

Kind of neat, when you think about it. I know the episode isn't perfect, but that's not bad for less than an hour's worth of scifi show.

Elton John digression: "Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me" is a fabulous song, and so is "Your Song." It's hard to pick a favorite, but mine might be "Someone Saved My Life Tonight."

 

[Michael]

You people know nothing. It's Nikita.

 

[JustKate]

^Nonsense, my child. You'll know better when you get a little older...

 

[Michael]

^ Oh damnit, I don't know a good tit-for-tat response.

 

[JustKate]

^ That's because I'm just so wise.

 

[Michael]

^ Shouldn't you be working?

 

[exodus]

For me, it's "Your Song"... one of the most sincerely sounding heartfelt songs I felt ever came out of Elton's repertoire.

"Empty Garden", "Levon" and "I Guess That's Why They Call it the Blues" for me.

 

[JustKate]

Oops - a partly completed post slipped through my fingers. So feel free to ignore this.

 

[JustKate]

^ Shouldn't you be working?

I must not have got the memo that says you're the one who signs my paycheck these days.

Those are really good ones, too, Exodus - particularly "Levon."

But on that note, I actually do have to get back to work. Otherwise that tyrant NCC is going to get on my case...

 

[kimc]

According to Tuvix, Neelix and Tuvok were alive within him. Okay, that may have been just a line to make Kes feel comfortable but imagine if you will you're trapped with another person within a third body that is developing it's own personality as a mix of yours and your fellow prisoner's. Imagine if your combined will to live was being demonstrated by this third person as THEIR will to live but it's really yours but you can't express it...

I hate to disagree, but I don't think that's what they wanted to imply at all. As you said, Tuvix' line was just a figurative way to express his existence and calm Kes. He was both, Neelix and Tuvok. And yet he was someone else, too. He was Tuvix, a sentient being.

The thing is at the end of the episode we're left with Tuvok and Neelix back to their old selves so that would imply that they were indeed still alive within Tuvix.

Now they could have gone REALLY dark, have Janeway go ahead with the execution and not be able to get Tuvok and Neelix back - in fact all three would be gone but that would be more of a BSG plot.

 

[Praetor]

Well, we can chalk it all up to the 'magic' of the transporter, which somehow separated Kirk into good and bad halves in 'The Enemy Within' and was able to reintegrate him. Fortunately, TOS didn't bother to try to explain how or why and just focused on trying to tell a good story.

 

[Gary7]

For me, it's "Your Song"... one of the most sincerely sounding heartfelt songs I felt ever came out of Elton's repertoire.

"Empty Garden", "Levon" and "I Guess That's Why They Call it the Blues" for me.

I do enjoy those as well, especially Empty Garden. When I first heard it, I couldn't hold back the tears for the timing of it all. "Oh and I've been calling... oh hey hey Johnny. Can't you come out to play." RIP John Lennon.

 

[crusher]

Wow reading some of the responses to this ep are amazing. I loved this ep when it first aired. I felt for the crew in losing two crew memebrs but gaining a great addition. But I understood Janeway's need to recover Neelix and Tuvok, I really felt for her as she injected Tuvix.

And to those who say she's the worst Captain you haven't really watched the show. She made decisions and accomplished things that Picard and Sisko could never think too but don't think I don't like them because I enjoyed both characters.

Just my opinion.

 

[Anwar]

Exactly, I mean it's easy to say she's a bad captain and try to be all black and white about it but truth is most of those situation always used as proof of her "badness" were grayer situations that require careful thought where there's no easy answer (or even a satisfying one).

Funny though how guys like Ransom get all the sympathy when he did worse things, and most people who hate Janeway are always willing to forgive Ransom for everything he did.