Tuvix

[Red Ranger]

For me, it's "Your Song"... one of the most sincerely sounding heartfelt songs I felt ever came out of Elton's repertoire.

"Empty Garden", "Levon" and "I Guess That's Why They Call it the Blues" for me.

You're ALL wrong! The best Elton John songs are Daniel, Benny & the Jets, and Philadelphia Freedom! I'm also kind of partial to Island Girl and Don't Go Breaking My Heart, his duet with Kiki Dee! -- RR

 

[Unicron]

A sentient being's right should always come before any rights a non-sentient being has.

At the point Janeway's decision to force the procedure on Tuvix there was absolute proof that Tuvix was sentient and absolute proof that he wanted to live. There was no proof that Tuvok or Neelix were sentient. Therefore Tuvix right to life should have trumped any rights that Neelix and Tuvok had at that point.

But clearly sentience is not the best measure for answering the problem, since Tuvix's sentience was never in doubt. Even if you wanted to use sentience as a standard for argument, one can argue that Tuvix was just as "non-sentient" before the accidental merger.

What was in doubt were Tuvix's rights as an individual versus those of Tuvok and Neelix as individuals. And on those grounds, it's a much harder problem.

And Kes's feelings should not have been taken into account at all. Someone right to life is a much stronger right than some being 'right to be with the man she loved". Nor should Voyager's need for their two crew members have trumped Tuvix's right to life. If Tuvok was killed at any time in the voyage the crew would have adapted, and they certainly would have had no trouble managing without a cook.

Why would her feelings be irrelevant? It is true that had Neelix or Tuvok actually been 100% dead, with no hope of restoration possible, the crew would have adapted. But that's not what happened with Tuvix. And should Janeway have rejected Ensign Ballard's attempt to rejoin Voyager in "Ashes to Ashes" on the grounds that she had technically died three years before and the Kobali considered her a separate individual in their society?

* shrugs *

While I think most if not all of us agree that Tuvix became a unique individual, and that his rights had to be considered, I can't see a valid argument that those rights are more valid than those of his "parents" if it were possible to restore them, which it was thanks to Trek magic. As others have said, I don't think it's possible to say either choice was fully moral or not. Perhaps it is best to say Janeway made the more pragmatic choice. But I believe the reasons I've mentioned are why the crew was as reluctant to leap to Tuvix's defense. I think at that point he was being driven partly by selfishness, and had blinded himself to how the crew viewed their relationships with Tuvok and Neelix, and why those mattered.

 

[kimc]

Funny though how guys like Ransom get all the sympathy when he did worse things, and most people who hate Janeway are always willing to forgive Ransom for everything he did.

I always found that a bit odd myself. Ransom was killing sentient beings for personal convenience. On top of that he left another Starfleet crew to die at the hands of these aliens were were seeking revenge for HIS actions. Oh, and there is also reprogramming the Doctor, having him commit torture, etc.

What did Janeway do? She got angry. How dare she? I guess next to an angry female captain an genocidal one is going to look pretty good.

 

[Michael]

But clearly sentience is not the best measure for answering the problem, since Tuvix's sentience was never in doubt. Even if you wanted to use sentience as a standard for argument, one can argue that Tuvix was just as "non-sentient" before the accidental merger.

Why is his sentience not the measure? In my opinion it's the only thing which should be taken into account in this case. And what does him being non-sentient before the accident have to do with anything? The point is, at the moment Janeway had to decide what to do, Tuvix was sentient. Neelix and Tuvok were not. Just because they were the friends of the crew didn't make them more important than Tuvix.

... I can't see a valid argument that those rights are more valid than those of his "parents" if it were possible to restore them, which it was thanks to Trek magic.

Of course they are more valid. He's the one who is alive. Tuvok and Neelix were not.

I think at that point he was being driven partly by selfishness, ...

Excuse me, but selfishness? He just wanted to live! It's not like he asked for anything from the crew. The only thing he wanted was to be alive. The will to live does not count for selfishness, in my humble opinion that is.

Funny though how guys like Ransom get all the sympathy when he did worse things, and most people who hate Janeway are always willing to forgive Ransom for everything he did.

I always found that a bit odd myself. Ransom was killing sentient beings for personal convenience. On top of that he left another Starfleet crew to die at the hands of these aliens were were seeking revenge for HIS actions. Oh, and there is also reprogramming the Doctor, having him commit torture, etc.

What did Janeway do? She got angry. How dare she? I guess next to an angry female captain an genocidal one is going to look pretty good.

Khan Noonien Singh – essentially an insane mass murderer – is one of my favorite characters in Star Trek. An ethical and altruistic character does not equate to a good character.

 

[Anwar]

I never got the love for Khan either. He's a Ham and all, but he's no so magnificent compared to, say, Dukat.

But anywho, Ransom does get a lot of sympathy for committing genocide whereas Janeway is hated for doing far lesser things that rarely harmed anyone.

 

[Praetor]

Some people just want an excuse to hate Janeway. Others have a legitimate moral issue with the scenario in 'Tuvix.'

 

[Anwar]

Except it's not clear-cut, it's way more complex than that. I don't think there was a correct, or even satisfying, answer to that episode aside from a wuss-out "we found out how the make Tuvix a separate guy and still bring back the others!". And Janeway shows that she's not some wangst-ridden waif by not getting all teared up or letting this one incident mess with her head for the rest of the series.

 

[Praetor]

Oh, agreed. I was generalizing. It was a complex and in some ways mishandled issue. Janeway made a pragmatic decision about a moral issue and it felt like a cop-out because, among other reasons, it seemed to have no effect other than to bring Tuvok and Neelix back. No one in the crew other than the lightbulb looked at her and said 'WTF?'

So it somewhat undermined the dramatic punch I suspect they were going for and made Janeway look cold. I'm not saying that I have a problem with her looking cold or even with her making the decision she made, just with the fact they didn't acknowledge what she did for what it was.

 

[Michael]

Some people just want an excuse to hate Janeway. Others have a legitimate moral issue with the scenario in 'Tuvix.'

Spot on, my Romulan friend.

 

[Anwar]

Oh, agreed. I was generalizing. It was a complex and in some ways mishandled issue. Janeway made a pragmatic decision about a moral issue and it felt like a cop-out because, among other reasons, it seemed to have no effect other than to bring Tuvok and Neelix back. No one in the crew other than the lightbulb looked at her and said 'WTF?'

So it somewhat undermined the dramatic punch I suspect they were going for and made Janeway look cold. I'm not saying that I have a problem with her looking cold or even with her making the decision she made, just with the fact they didn't acknowledge what she did for what it was.

That's the problem with VOY's schizo handling: The people in power wanted it all standalone with little to no serialization, whereas individual writers and some of the producers DID want that. Thus we got episodes that should have been character development but ended up tossed away by the end. I won't blame Janeway's characterization on these issues on her, but on the schizo handling of lasting story effects.

 

[Unicron]

Why is his sentience not the measure? In my opinion it's the only thing which should be taken into account in this case. And what does him being non-sentient before the accident have to do with anything? The point is, at the moment Janeway had to decide what to do, Tuvix was sentient. Neelix and Tuvok were not. Just because they were the friends of the crew didn't make them more important than Tuvix.

You're saying that Neelix and Tuvok no longer had rights because Tuvix was created, accidentally and unintentionally, and no one could speak for them adequately (except maybe Tuvix, and it's hard to judge how reliable he was). I'm saying the question of sentience isn't really part of the equation, for the reason I stated above. Tuvix was a unique individual. But, given the opportunity to undo the merger and restore Neelix and Tuvok to what they had been, the real question - whose rights matter more - came up. Since neither Tuvok or Neelix chose to "die" and become Tuvix, their rights matter when it comes to the idea of restoring them.

It's the same question that came up in "Ashes to Ashes." Ballard was killed on an away mission, then revived by the Kobali because they rely on genetically altering the dead of other races to keep their race going. To them, that made Ballard a completely new individual with a completely new life; her old life was meaningless. To use the logic you're using to defend Tuvix, Janeway would have had to simply tell Ensign Ballard that the Kobali were correct and she couldn't justify letting her return to the crew of Voyager. Which by itself would have been pretty silly.

Of course they are more valid. He's the one who is alive. Tuvok and Neelix were not.

But their loss wasn't permanent once the possibility of restoring them via transporter magic. That is why, although that possibility wasn't therefore a given once it became possible, Janeway had to consider their rights and how their relationships mattered to the crew. Again, they were just as alive before Tuvix was created.

Excuse me, but selfishness? He just wanted to live! It's not like he asked for anything from the crew. The only thing he wanted was to be alive. The will to live does not count for selfishness, in my humble opinion that is.

Yes, he wanted to continue living at the expense of his parents, even though he knew the crew was uncomfortable with that and even though it was agreed that the possibility of restoring them would be given as much attention as they could. Is this an understandable reaction for Tuvix? Certainly. I can easily see where he was coming from, but that doesn't change my view. Kes made it clear to Tuvix that, given the choice, she didn't want him. She wanted Neelix. She didn't want him claiming to speak for Neelix, because he wasn't. He couldn't fill that role, or Tuvok's, so it shouldn't be treated as a given that Tuvix's survival is more important than theirs.

 

[kimc]

[

Funny though how guys like Ransom get all the sympathy when he did worse things, and most people who hate Janeway are always willing to forgive Ransom for everything he did.

I always found that a bit odd myself. Ransom was killing sentient beings for personal convenience. On top of that he left another Starfleet crew to die at the hands of these aliens were were seeking revenge for HIS actions. Oh, and there is also reprogramming the Doctor, having him commit torture, etc.

What did Janeway do? She got angry. How dare she? I guess next to an angry female captain an genocidal one is going to look pretty good.

Khan Noonien Singh – essentially an insane mass murderer – is one of my favorite characters in Star Trek. An ethical and altruistic character does not equate to a good character.

I agree Khan was a good character. Actually, I think Ransom was a good character too. However, I do not believe he was "right" in what he did.

 

[Therin of Andor]

His brother, who is a schizophrenic & alcoholic, could have given him a kidney, but refused.

I would imagine an alcoholic's kidneys are urgently needed right where they are.

All I can say is, it doesn't seen nearly as clearcut to me. And I think that demonstrates, really, the...the power of this episode. That one person can say, "A is the moral choice, no doubt about it," whereas another person can say with equal certainty, "No, B is the moral choice, no doubt about it," whereas another person (and you may call her JustKate, if you like) says, "Aaaauuuugh! To me, they both sound like moral choices and immoral choices, at the same time."

Exactly. The writers came up with an alternative no-win scenario to rival the Kobayashi Maru. There was "no way to win" (quoting Saavik), not even by cheating (ie. Kirk).

 

[USS Renegade]

Okay, just read the whole thread, now... Here I go...

This episode is the prime reason why I think Janeway made Admiral... To get he the hell out of the Captain's chair. You would never guess Janeway is my favorite Captain by the way I talk about her, but she is my favorite BECAUSE of her flaws. Yes, Sisko was a murderer too. He did what he did for the greater good, not just to save his old friend.

The ONLY person in this thread who, in my opinion, is on the right track is Gary 7. Janeway's weakness as a captain was that she saw two decisions, she is reactionary to a situation, instead of being proactive. Lets ask the question of, "WWKD?".

Kirk would have had Torres temporarily modify the transporter system to be able to record Tuvix's pattern. Then, they split Tuvix into Tuvoc and Neelix, and then make another copy of Tuvix. Then Tuvix meets his "parents", creeps them out (even Tuvoc), and decides to leave Voyager. So they give him a shuttle and everyone is happy, except for the shuttlecraft building team in engineering.

Sisko, I believe, would have done the same. Picard would have recognized the sentience of Tuvix and let him stand, but then Q would come along and decide he liked Tuvoc and Neelix better and split him up.


As for the morality of the situation, splitting Tuvix was just plain wrong. No getting around it, it was just wrong. He was a sentient being who did not want to die. He was a new life form, and had a right to continue existing. His execution was a violation of the Prime Directive, as well as his own rights as an individual. Period. Saying it was selfish for Tuvix to remain himself is irrelevant. It was even more selfish for Janeway to split him apart again against his will.

Either Tuvix was created by devine design, or he was an accident. If you take out the divine context, all life is an accident. A random chance. It is only by random chance that humanity evolved, random chance they survived, random chance that the right combination of DNA created Janeway. All that accidental randomness does NOT negate her right to exist. In a broader scope, EVERYONE is a random accident.


The split personaes of Kirk and Torres, while similar, are different animals. Split Kirk and split Torres were unable to cope without their other halves. They needed to be whole. Tuvix didn't NEED to be split to be able to survive. People keep saying he couldn't fill the roles of Tuvoc or of Neelix, but that just isn't so. Tuvix was a more intuitive Chief of Security, and a better cook than Neelix. He was more than the sum of his parts.

The Seven of Nine/Locutus allegory is not correct either. Janeway was correct to make those decisions for Seven because she was NOT competent to make that decision. Locutus on the other hand, was NOT a person, and was NOT an individual. "Locutus" was nothing but a designation, not a person or a personality. Locutus was a physical expression of the Borg hive mind. Even once Picard was restored to humanity, all of his memories and experiences were retained by the Borg hive mind. Restoring Picard did not destroy Locutus, whereas restoring Tuvoc and Neelix DID destroy Tuvix.


The bad storytelling part of this episode is what bugs me the most. This SHOULD have been a 2 parter, there SHOULD have been more reaction from the crew. Especially since it was early in the series and there was still a bit of divisiveness among the Maquis. SOMEONE other than the doctor should have said "This is just wrong!". Especially Chakotay. As XO it was his JOB to say "This is just wrong!". This was a great episode, but it could have easily been one of the greatest Sci-Fi stories ever written. It's a shame it wasn't.


And finally, Elton John's best song is "I Never Knew Her Name", off the Sleeping With the Past album. 2nd is "Heavy Traffic" from the Reg Strikes Back album. 3rd is actually mainstream, "I Guess Thats Why They Call It the Blues".


Oh, and Happy Zombie Day everyone!

 

[Anwar]

So it's wrong to save two crewmembers just because a third one who really isn't a crewmember doesn't think they were worth saving? The lives Tuvok and Neelix had were irrelevant because Tuvix said so? She was condeming Tuvok and Neelix to death by letting him live, and he never once gave much thought to either of them anyways.

No clear answer here, unless you happen to be a Janeway hater who thinks every choice she made was the wrong one.

 

[Unicron]

^ That's the problem I run into when I think about it. To be fair, if the ep was a two parter and Tuvix was given more of a life, if it took the EMH a lot longer to find a way to restore Tuvok and Neelix, then I think the case that Tuvix's rights matter more would be a lot stronger and would be even more of a problem for Janeway to decide. As it stands, it's a genuine no-win scenario.

 

[Red Ranger]

Funny though how guys like Ransom get all the sympathy when he did worse things, and most people who hate Janeway are always willing to forgive Ransom for everything he did.

I always found that a bit odd myself. Ransom was killing sentient beings for personal convenience. On top of that he left another Starfleet crew to die at the hands of these aliens were were seeking revenge for HIS actions. Oh, and there is also reprogramming the Doctor, having him commit torture, etc.

What did Janeway do? She got angry. How dare she? I guess next to an angry female captain an genocidal one is going to look pretty good.

Off topic, but I'd say that's more potential proof that because Janeway is a woman that she's more harshly judged by some fans. -- RR

 

[Praetor]

Well, I hate to say it, but if it the choice was Tuvix or Tuvok and Neelix, or in other words one life to 'save' or two lives to 'save,' with no possibility of saving all three, I'd pick Tuvok and Neelix simply on the basis of 2>1. In that regard, I agree with Janeway. Truly the Kobayashi Maru.

 

[TS-1838-SWATH]

Funny though how guys like Ransom get all the sympathy when he did worse things, and most people who hate Janeway are always willing to forgive Ransom for everything he did.

I feel some sympathy for Ransom, But he must not have been a good CAPT. to begin with so it was possible for him to sink as low as he did, CAPT. Pathetic.

 

[Anwar]

People who sympathize with him go on about "He had less of a crew and people dying all around him so his actions were justified".

They all tend to forget that Ransom was the reason all those people were dead! It wasn't random chance they died, they died because he deliberately had them go through space that they knew was hostile. If it were just random bad luck he suffered from, then he'd be more sympathetic. But no, their situation was entirely their own doing.