Tuvix
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Tuvix was referred to in a later episode but along the lines of "Remember when Tuvok and Neelix were the same person?" Apparently the crew considered Tuvix to be a combination of the two and his "death" was necessary to free them.
or, more likely, that's how it was explained to a child who had lost her godfather
Which episode was Tuvix referred to again? I don't recall.
Well I think it was the right thing for Janeway to do because although that meant Tuvix was 'killed', that meant that Neelix and Tuvok were back. If you think about it, Tuvix 'killed' them by morphing them into one person and becoming them. Saying that Janeway condemned Tuvix to death isn't quite true. Technically, it would be more like rebirth than death.
Tuvix was in the episode called...Tuvix. I think that's what it was called, anyway.
Tuvix was in the episode called...Tuvix. I think that's what it was called, anyway.
Did you read the quoted part of the post above yours?
This is what I was referring to, if I wasn't clear.
I was wondering if anyone knew which episode he was mentioned again after Tuvix.
Did you read the quoted part of the post above yours?
Well, yes....I did not have my glasses on, though, so it was hard to read.
it was some episode where naomi was explaining Tuvix to other children. She was either explaining it to the borg kids or to some aliens (possibly those in "Dragon's Teeth").
Memory of such a thing is hard to come by once you've seen all the episodes...
Memory of such a thing is hard to come by once you've seen all the episodes...
It may be my case of "Sometimers". I'm too young for "all-zheimers".
It may also be "Drone". I wish I remembered.
Memory of such a thing is hard to come by once you've seen all the episodes...
It may be my case of "Sometimers". I'm too young for "all-zheimers".
Good one.
id pay good money to see that.
If they were dead, Janeway would never have made the decision that she did. As others have mentioned, she did the right thing because she sacrificed one person to bring back two. In my book, saving two lives is better than saving one.
I'm rather disturbed I read that post out in Tuvok's voice. LOL LOL
At first I didn't like the episode... then later on, I appreciated it. Certainly one of the most controversial episodes in a number of ways. In the end, I thought Janeway handled it badly all around. She wasn't apologetic. She treated Tuvix as a faceless anomaly that had to be dispensed with to get her two crew members back. I thought it was deplorable, another deep fracture in the Janeway character.
Aside from the obvious debate, I still struggle with this basic premise: transporter cloning. We've seen it on several occasions in the Star Trek series. After all the other highly improbably technology, they can't find a way to reliably 'clone' using the transporter. That inability seems more unlikely... they are able to do so much more, like take young versions of people and restore older versions of their DNA. That is complicated. Riker's accident was SIMPLE. A reflection of a transporter beam created duplicates. How easy is that?
The combining of Neelix and Tuvok was an accident. Something they could not do intentionally. You don't know how to sequence the genes together (but miraculously, the computer did... wouldn't logs be able to be dissected to reverse the process? Maybe not after the combination--but it could be recreated again, right?). In any case, I see the moral issues of cloning an individual intentionally. But here is a non-moral chance to do it. Instead of extracting out the DNA of Neelix and Tuvok, COPY the DNA... rematerialize copies of each of them and leave Tuvix intact. I really think it should have been possible.
But yes... we all know, that means adding another character to the crew and wreaking havoc on the story line. And you can't send Tuvix away... it's like doing it to Tuvok. He's not from the Delta quadrant... but you go ahead and cast him off, away from his friends and a chance to reunite with friends back in the Alpha quadrant.
So, here's my solution. Tuvix volunteers for a procedure that has a high certainty of preserving him. They descramble and pull out Tuvok and Neelix. Tuvix is rematerialized and seems fine... only, because of his complex DNA nature, the computer couldn't handle it quite right. It is not obvious at first. But then, Tuvix complains of severe headaches. The Doctor discovers that he is beginning to lose cellular cohesion. There's nothing the Doctor can do about it. And eventually, Tuvix dies. This conveniently eliminates this out-of-character decision by Janeway to execute Tuvix.
That's just a plausible out for someone who is deeply disturbed by what took place in the episode "Tuvix". There is another way... a more clear rationalization about the state of Tuvix. Tuvix is an accident that is not supposed to exist. Not a natural mutation but a conception of a horrible accident of technology. He is given a chance to live because they have no other choice... but then when a reliable way to restore Neelix and Tuvok is found, he is told of the 'cure.' His decline is selfish... because the other two people's death is able to be averted. Two for the price of one. And that one is NOT supposed to exist. In all fairness, he should have accepted his fate with dignity, understanding that the lives of two men were in the balance. The natural order of things must be restored. But the Neelix side of him was stronger (Tuvok would have gladly given his life)... he panics and refuses to submit. Understandable. But for the Doctor not to go along with it? Like someone pointed out earlier, he pioneers the means by which Tuvok and Neelix can be restored but then refuses to carry it out. Illogical. He shouldn't have pursued the solution to begin with. Maybe Janeway's intolerance for the behavior of Tuvix forced her to be cold about it... she was determined to save two lives and here was someone stopping her. But I think she should have been more compassionate. Reach the Tuvok side of Tuvix and get him to understand what must be done. THAT would be the Janeway we've come to know... It is sad that we were deprived of that.
Aside from the obvious debate, I still struggle with this basic premise: transporter cloning. We've seen it on several occasions in the Star Trek series. After all the other highly improbably technology, they can't find a way to reliably 'clone' using the transporter. That inability seems more unlikely... they are able to do so much more, like take young versions of people and restore older versions of their DNA. That is complicated. Riker's accident was SIMPLE. A reflection of a transporter beam created duplicates. How easy is that?
The combining of Neelix and Tuvok was an accident. Something they could not do intentionally. You don't know how to sequence the genes together (but miraculously, the computer did... wouldn't logs be able to be dissected to reverse the process? Maybe not after the combination--but it could be recreated again, right?). In any case, I see the moral issues of cloning an individual intentionally. But here is a non-moral chance to do it. Instead of extracting out the DNA of Neelix and Tuvok, COPY the DNA... rematerialize copies of each of them and leave Tuvix intact. I really think it should have been possible.
But yes... we all know, that means adding another character to the crew and wreaking havoc on the story line. And you can't send Tuvix away... it's like doing it to Tuvok. He's not from the Delta quadrant... but you go ahead and cast him off, away from his friends and a chance to reunite with friends back in the Alpha quadrant.
So, here's my solution. Tuvix volunteers for a procedure that has a high certainty of preserving him. They descramble and pull out Tuvok and Neelix. Tuvix is rematerialized and seems fine... only, because of his complex DNA nature, the computer couldn't handle it quite right. It is not obvious at first. But then, Tuvix complains of severe headaches. The Doctor discovers that he is beginning to lose cellular cohesion. There's nothing the Doctor can do about it. And eventually, Tuvix dies. This conveniently eliminates this out-of-character decision by Janeway to execute Tuvix.
That's just a plausible out for someone who is deeply disturbed by what took place in the episode "Tuvix". There is another way... a more clear rationalization about the state of Tuvix. Tuvix is an accident that is not supposed to exist. Not a natural mutation but a conception of a horrible accident of technology. He is given a chance to live because they have no other choice... but then when a reliable way to restore Neelix and Tuvok is found, he is told of the 'cure.' His decline is selfish... because the other two people's death is able to be averted. Two for the price of one. And that one is NOT supposed to exist. In all fairness, he should have accepted his fate with dignity, understanding that the lives of two men were in the balance. The natural order of things must be restored. But the Neelix side of him was stronger (Tuvok would have gladly given his life)... he panics and refuses to submit. Understandable. But for the Doctor not to go along with it? Like someone pointed out earlier, he pioneers the means by which Tuvok and Neelix can be restored but then refuses to carry it out. Illogical. He shouldn't have pursued the solution to begin with. Maybe Janeway's intolerance for the behavior of Tuvix forced her to be cold about it... she was determined to save two lives and here was someone stopping her. But I think she should have been more compassionate. Reach the Tuvok side of Tuvix and get him to understand what must be done. THAT would be the Janeway we've come to know... It is sad that we were deprived of that.
either way, the end result was the same. Tuvix was dead via Janeway's decision.
This may have already been mentioned, but this episode can be seen as an allegory for abortion if the mother's life is threatened. Should Neelix and Tuvok, the "mother" with more life experience be saved (two people representing the mother is indicative of a mother's further reproductive abilities) or should Tuvix, the fetus/baby, which contains part of the "mother" inside and is a new and young life that knows nothing of the world be saved?
Very clever, Voyager writers (never thought i'd say that haha jk)
^ However, Tuvix was NOT the child of Tuvok and Neelix - he WAS Tuvok and Neelix. That became less and less obvious as he started to evolve into his own personality which is why his death is a tragedy.
Instead of an abortion parallel I see it as the same as sending one crewperson on a one-way mission in order to save two others.
Instead of an abortion parallel I see it as the same as sending one crewperson on a one-way mission in order to save two others.
I was thinking after reading GodBen's review that the main problem I have with this episode other than Janeway's mischaracterization is the technobabbly explanation for the creation of Tuvix, and, even worse, the technobabbly and rather implausible 'de-integration.' I think Gary7 makes good points about the fact that the transporter is probably not as limited as it appears to be, and a good suggestion for ending the episode better, but why not avoid the technobabble altogether?
In my version, Tuvok would have been severely injured, and his katra transferred to Neelix, similar to Spock and McCoy in TWOK/TSFS. Sometimes Tuvok is in control, sometimes Neelix and of course it's all Neelix as played by Ethan Phillips. Both personalities are confused and disoriented, and don't particularly like what has happened. However, the katra reacts differently in Neelix's body, and bonds with his mind, creating a third personality: 'Tuvix,' with none of the imbalances that McCoy exhibited in TSFS. Eventually, the 'Tuvix' personality begins taking over Neelix's body. Tuvok's original body is ultimately saved/resuscitated, but the new persona does not wish to return the katra to the body, and asserts that the Tuvok and Neelix personalities are happier this way. Unable to communicate with Tuvok and Neelix directly anymore to discover what they really want, Janeway is left with no choice but to ultimately force the katra to be returned to Tuvok's body, using Kes's limited knowledge of telepathy in cooperation with the Doc's knowledge of physiology.
So here it would be more of a scifi take on multiple personality disorder, rather than abortion.
Wait. Possibly better idea.
Tuvok's katra should have been transferred into Kes! As a fellow telepath, this makes an 'unusual reaction' resulting in a new personality more likely. The rest could have played out the same as I outlined above, only here obviously the deus ex machina couldn't be Kes. We have the added benefit of Neelix having to reconcile his odd couple relationship with Tuvok and his romantic feelings for Kes. (Plus, this might have been a better 'out of body' type episode than 'Warlord.') The only problem is, what to call it? Kevok? Tus? Kek? Maybe my revised Tuvok/Neelix version was better after all.
Thoughts?
In my version, Tuvok would have been severely injured, and his katra transferred to Neelix, similar to Spock and McCoy in TWOK/TSFS. Sometimes Tuvok is in control, sometimes Neelix and of course it's all Neelix as played by Ethan Phillips. Both personalities are confused and disoriented, and don't particularly like what has happened. However, the katra reacts differently in Neelix's body, and bonds with his mind, creating a third personality: 'Tuvix,' with none of the imbalances that McCoy exhibited in TSFS. Eventually, the 'Tuvix' personality begins taking over Neelix's body. Tuvok's original body is ultimately saved/resuscitated, but the new persona does not wish to return the katra to the body, and asserts that the Tuvok and Neelix personalities are happier this way. Unable to communicate with Tuvok and Neelix directly anymore to discover what they really want, Janeway is left with no choice but to ultimately force the katra to be returned to Tuvok's body, using Kes's limited knowledge of telepathy in cooperation with the Doc's knowledge of physiology.
So here it would be more of a scifi take on multiple personality disorder, rather than abortion.
Wait. Possibly better idea.
Tuvok's katra should have been transferred into Kes! As a fellow telepath, this makes an 'unusual reaction' resulting in a new personality more likely. The rest could have played out the same as I outlined above, only here obviously the deus ex machina couldn't be Kes. We have the added benefit of Neelix having to reconcile his odd couple relationship with Tuvok and his romantic feelings for Kes. (Plus, this might have been a better 'out of body' type episode than 'Warlord.') The only problem is, what to call it? Kevok? Tus? Kek? Maybe my revised Tuvok/Neelix version was better after all.
Thoughts?
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