SF and People of Color

[stj]

Since this thread has come back to life---

Ronald D. Moore's time on Voyager is irrelevant, since his time on that show was only six episodes. The episode in which Torres tries to change the heritage of her unborn child is nothing short of character assassination--at least that's the way I felt about it when it aired--and I haven't bothered to watch it again since. Moore was long gone by the time it aired, too.

The conceptualization of the Torres character was nothing but an analogue to a mixed race girl with the crippling problem that her Black half was all cliche. In Faces, which predated Moore's time on Voyager, the Black half and the white half were literally separated. Inevitably, given what modern Klingons are, the white half was the smart one. The heritage episode was not character assassination, it was the same old, same old that Moore chose to do nothing about,even when invited to! My apologies for not reminding you of the earlier episode.

The fact that the Klingon's "Empire" is pretty much empty is the same flaw that afflicts the "Dominion" and the Romulan "Empire." It's a conceptual problem rooted in budgetary limitations.

The Romulans simply aren't popular characters, especially with the writers, and play little role in Trek. But this is factually wrong on the Dominion---the Jem'Hadar and the Vortas are notably present many times.

Nuance would be to move on past the generalities being drawn and to pay attention to specifics: Worf's characterization as a successful single father, episodes like "Judgment" (ENT) which illustrate complexities and differences in Klingon culture, and Star Trek VI's clever deconstruction of notions of Klingon barbarism.

Both Worf and the actual African-American father in Trek, Sisko, are carefully drawn as successful single fathers. Portraying African-American men, overt ones like Sisko or covert ones like Worf, as poor fathers would be using a wholly negative stereotypes. Bad assness and/or sex machines are not wholly negative stereotypes, but they are still stereotypes and really neither desirable, nor good writing. Judgment's Klingons are not stereotypical but Judgment was also a product of the reviled Enterprise. Wasn't this episode particularly despised? The Klingons in Star Trek VI certainly had nothing to do the real modern Klingons, the Ron Moore one. They were thinly disguised Soviets. There was no honor, there was no bluster, there was no honor, there were no big babes with pain sticks.

Nuance is noting that Trek isn't crudely racist, yet there are still difficulties in Trek's use of patronizing or dubious images of African-Americans in portraying Klingons.

All of which is not to give the "obvious" a pass, but to acknowledge the complexity of the show.

The other poster responding to my mention of Moore's Klingons certainly did mean to give them a pass, holding my opinion instead is just nuts, not an obvious conclusion. And I'm pretty sure that everyone who read your posts would think your argument is, reading modern Klingons as basically Black characters is just stupid. I think that's just another way of giving it a pass.

 

[Harvey]

Nuance is noting that Trek isn't crudely racist, yet there are still difficulties in Trek's use of patronizing or dubious images of African-Americans in portraying Klingons.

And that's the only point I've been trying to make.

All of which is not to give the "obvious" a pass, but to acknowledge the complexity of the show.

The other poster responding to my mention of Moore's Klingons certainly did mean to give them a pass, holding my opinion instead is just nuts, not an obvious conclusion. And I'm pretty sure that everyone who read your posts would think your argument is, reading modern Klingons as basically Black characters is just stupid. I think that's just another way of giving it a pass.

My point was, prescribing modern Klingons solely as racial stereotypes of Africans is incomplete. I could have articulated my point better, and perhaps with less vitriol. It would be dishonest for me to announce disagreement with this statement.

I will object to the continued introduction of Ronald D. Moore into your Voyager argument, though. He doesn't apply. He only was involved with that series for six episodes during the sixth season, after which, he left, frustrated. He was not involved in any way with "Faces" or "Lineage." The only Torres central episode he was involved with was "Barge of the Dead," on which he only received a story credit.

The Vorta and Jem'hadar don't apply to the Dominion, because they were literally created by the Founders. All the races that the Dominion actually conquered are rarely, if at all, present. But the Romulans do make for a much better example of the point, no doubt.

Pain sticks were invented by another writer than Ronald D. Moore. Moore didn't join Next Gen until the third season.

And per Judgment, I was under the impression that it was considered one of the better Enterprise episodes, but my opinion of that series is outside of the norm.

 

[stj]

The modern Klingons in particular have unsavory undertones. I don't know if you could call it racist---I mean, if something like that is racist what do you call Klansmen and neoNazis? But it surely isn't forward thinking, which is a damn shame for something that calls itself science fiction.

^^^From my first post.

Moore's ceaseless self promotion may lead to more blame being assigned to him personally than is strictly warranted. And the endless adulation for him may do the same. But whose fault would that be?

 

[od0_ital]

The modern Klingons in particular have unsavory undertones.

What?!?!

All dark skinned in make-up (and predominantly performed by African-American actors)?

Michael Dorn & Tony Todd are the first black actors I think of when I think of Klingons, true enough.

But have ya seen the other actors they cast without their make-up?

Christopher Lloyd, Mark Lenard, Christopher Plummer, William Campbell, Michael Ansara, J.G. Hertzler, Roxanne Dawson, Vaughn Armstrong, Brian Thompson, David Warner, John Colicos...

If anything, folks should be complainin' about all the white folks put in blackface to play Klingons, or something.

 

[Star Wolf]

What?!?!

All dark skinned in make-up (and predominantly performed by African-American actors)?

Michael Dorn & Tony Todd are the first black actors I think of when I think of Klingons, true enough.

But have ya seen the other actors they cast without their make-up?

Christopher Lloyd, Mark Lenard, Christopher Plummer, William Campbell, Michael Ansara, J.G. Hertzler, Roxanne Dawson, Vaughn Armstrong, Brian Thompson, David Warner, John Colicos...

If anything, folks should be complainin' about all the white folks put in blackface to play Klingons, or something.

But then we are talking TOS Klingons = white actor, TNG and later Klingons = black actor. Klingon/Human = latin actor. With movies I-III being the worst Klingons. You're right we should storm the studios and demand awnsers.

 

[Harvey]

Moore's ceaseless self promotion may lead to more blame being assigned to him personally than is strictly warranted. And the endless adulation for him may do the same. But whose fault would that be?

Moore has certainly engaged with the media and with fans, but it's never struck me as self-promotion. If he was so interested in propping up his ego, he wouldn't vocally admit to mistakes under his watch, let alone explicitly take the blame for them.

I do find that his work on Trek is a little overrated. I wasn't aware of who he was until Star Trek: First Contact, and then only a bit. It's the podcast commentaries for Battlestar Galactica, which he does for free and with surprising candor, that have brought him to my attention. On Trek, he certainly wrote a number of memorable episodes, but he did so only as part of a larger writing staff.

But I know you ardently disagree with me, and on this subject neither of us is likely to budge.

 

[mswood]

Yeah most Klingons of significant screen time were actually caucasian not african american, though there are some exceptions.

As for the Klingons much f modern Klingon are actually based more on asian feudal times then african culture.

And yes the Kazons were based on primarily latino gangs, and this was also based primarily on the fact that the writers in the LA area were more exposed to media about that (not that there aren't gangs of every race), but in LA latinos make up a far larger percentage of that population then say Vancouver.

Writers (no matter what ethnic, religious, or sexual group) do get influence by their environment. As do producers and more importantly casting directors.

As for Torres they wanted a Spock like element to that character. Someone who was a mixed race and hated one aspect. They had already done the character wanting the alien side to be dominant and seeing the human half as something of lesser value. So to use that type of conflict it had to be reversed. So faces nor the basic character construct of Torres didn't bother me. The cgi recreation in season 7 with Fuller was a piece of crap, though. Though couldn't have easily get more ethnic features. Now I can't remember if that was a point of dialogue or only the cgi artists creation, but either way.

As for Trek, yeah the producers have tried to give the cast more diversity. And for modern trek that primarily goes to Berman. We may (or may not) take fault with him for many, many things. But on this (being open to other races and sexes for casting he has been the primary one.

 

[Hoshi_Mayweather]

What?!?!

All dark skinned in make-up (and predominantly performed by African-American actors)?

Michael Dorn & Tony Todd are the first black actors I think of when I think of Klingons, true enough.

But have ya seen the other actors they cast without their make-up?

Christopher Lloyd, Mark Lenard, Christopher Plummer, William Campbell, Michael Ansara, J.G. Hertzler, Roxanne Dawson, Vaughn Armstrong, Brian Thompson, David Warner, John Colicos...

If anything, folks should be complainin' about all the white folks put in blackface to play Klingons, or something.

I think the fact that you had white actors portraying various types of characters, it gets a pass.

Too, I think the classic TOS Klingons were 'trying' to be a take on Mongolians not African-Americans.

 

[Anwar]

Yep, the script for "Errand of Mercy" called for "Hard faced, Oriental" as a Klingon description. Jon Colicos himself said to the makeup artists "make me look like a space-age Genghis Khan!"

 

[Hoshi_Mayweather]

Yep, the script for "Errand of Mercy" called for "Hard faced, Oriental" as a Klingon description. Jon Colicos himself said to the makeup artists "make me look like a space-age Genghis Khan!"

Interesting....

 

[stj]

Michael Ansara's wife in Day of the Dove was a science officer. Their marital relationship wasn't Nick and Nora, but it wasn't the smarmy Jadzia/Word crap either. The look was obviously meant to be somewhat "Oriental" but there were no other stereotypes present, until Star Trek VI, when they were stereotypical Soviets. (John Schuck's rant is priceless, although the unintended humor has helped the movie age well.)

The thing about the original Klingons is not that they were well drawn or subtly conceived. In fact, they were deliberately drawn in most cases as Eeeeeeevil---But Kirk or the Organians or the Federation still made peace, or at the very least, eschewed war. Making peace with not so bad guys is an easy story. Making peace, or refusing war, with rotters like the Klingons was a real statement.

Berman Trek's idea of thinking about Eeeeeevil enemies is to day dream about genocide. Of course, some character nobly rejects it. But some character also bravely considers it. Feh.

 

[captainduprix]

Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Of the 3 most significant SF/genre shows on the air (Lost, BSG, and Heroes), NOT ONE has a central black character.

So in the most diverse country on Earth, in the year 2009, at a time when we have a family of African descent living in the White House, not one black actor or actress merits a spot.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, since television in general is oddly white this season.

I keep hearing this response: why should it matter? And that's precisely the point. If it didn't matter, there would be more, wouldn't there?

Denzel Washington, Will Smith, Alfre Woodard, Halle Berry, Morgan Freeman, et al, all got their starts on television. So why, all of a sudden, have casting agents, directors, writers, and producers suddenly had such a difficult time finding black talent?

Does it sound like I want a quota for black actors? It that's what it takes, HELL YEAH! After all, the producers of these shows all seem to have quotas for hot blondes, handsome young white leading men, asians, chubby guys, older actors, everyone but blacks.

It's like the old saying:

If you're white, you're alright.

If you're yellow (Hiro, Boomer, Sun Kwon), you're mellow

If you're brown (Sayid, Will Adama) stick around.

If you're black, get back (to doing something else)

 

[DonIago]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

To be fair, LOST did have Michael and Mr. Eko during seasons 1 and 2, and part of season 4. I'm not clear on whether they were written out or whether it was the actor's choice to leave, but given their cast turnover rates, it's nothing that especially defies the odds.

 

[captainduprix]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

To be fair, LOST did have Michael and Mr. Eko during seasons 1 and 2, and part of season 4. I'm not clear on whether they were written out or whether it was the actor's choice to leave, but given their cast turnover rates, it's nothing that especially defies the odds.

That is one of the things that first attracted me to the show. And I think the writing is still outstanding. It's just that, as a black person, it's hard watching television, and seeing everyone but black people. Still, I want to make it clear that I am a fan of all of these shows, and continue to watch religiously. It is precisely because I love them so much that I would like to see more folks who look like me.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Oh, LOST also has Rose. Not a regular, but certainly present...

Well, as a gay person, you can imagine how I feel about trying to find tv I can identify with on a personal level. Finding shows with black people in them ends up seeming almost easy by comparison.

 

[Kryton]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Hey, DonIago...that outfit you're wearing on your homepage reminds me of the one Peter Gabriel's wearing in the beginning of the video for "Steam"...tres pimp.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

You wanna complain about something, how about everything else on TV? At least Heroes, BSG and Lost have major non-white characters, several of whom are fan favorites. Since those (plus Dexter, also diverse) are my favorite shows, sometimes I forget how non-diverse TV is in general.

If you're brown (Sayid, Will Adama) stick around.

Who the frak is "Will" Adama?

Funny how those two guys are more popular than most white characters on their shows. BILL Adama is probably the most popular sci fi character on TV right now. You're ot doing your argument very much help with those examples. Toss in Hiro, and your argument completely fizzles out. Sci-fi audiences adore non-white characters and it's probably just the luck of the draw none of them happen to be portrayed by actors of African descent at this particular moment in time.

It is precisely because I love them so much that I would like to see more folks who look like me.

I'm a blonde white female and I don't give a flying frakarama about seeing any of em on TV (altho some of them are okay, like Elle on Heroes or Starbuck on BSG). What's the point of that? I want cool characters and if they happen to be hot guys, so much the better. If there never was another blonde female on TV ever again, I wouldn't miss em (like that's gonna happen, but still).

 

[T'Baio]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

If the demographics showed a large percentage of black people watching these shows, they'd probably have more black characters. But then, there's the circular reasoning that if they had more black characters, more black people would watch. But money managers don't care about that end of the argument, they just see what they get right now, and cater to that.

Two, if there were more black writers, directors and producers, there would probably be more black characters. You can probably make a case for racism making it difficult for black people to attain those positions...but the again, as a white guy living in small town Canada, it's hard for me to get there, too. Should I complain that there aren't enough Canadian characters?

 

[captainduprix]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

You wanna complain about something, how about everything else on TV? At least Heroes, BSG and Lost have major non-white characters, several of whom are fan favorites. Since those (plus Dexter, also diverse) are my favorite shows, sometimes I forget how non-diverse TV is in general.

If you're brown (Sayid, Will Adama) stick around.

Who the frak is "Will" Adama?

Funny how those two guys are more popular than most white characters on their shows. BILL Adama is probably the most popular sci fi character on TV right now. You're ot doing your argument very much help with those examples. Toss in Hiro, and your argument completely fizzles out. Sci-fi audiences adore non-white characters and it's probably just the luck of the draw none of them happen to be portrayed by actors of African descent at this particular moment in time.

It is precisely because I love them so much that I would like to see more folks who look like me.

I'm a blonde white female and I don't give a flying frakarama about seeing any of em on TV (altho some of them are okay, like Elle on Heroes or Starbuck on BSG). What's the point of that? I want cool characters and if they happen to be hot guys, so much the better. If there never was another blonde female on TV ever again, I wouldn't miss em (like that's gonna happen, but still).

It would be pointless to argue with you, since you clearly are not a person interested in anything but.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles has a central African-American character, James Ellison (Richard T. Jones). Dollhouse has Boyd Langton (Harry Lennix), who could end up being the moral center of the show and the audience's primary character to identify with. (It also has a regular, Dichen Lachman, who's half-Tibetan, interestingly.) Fringe has two African-American regulars, Lance Reddick as Phillip Broyles and Jasika Nicole as Astrid Farnsworth.

Knight Rider had Sidney Tamiia Poitier in its cast originally, but she was perhaps the least important character in the show and has now been written out -- though of the three recently dropped regulars, she's the only one who wasn't killed off. Meanwhile, Asian cast member Smith Cho was upgraded from recurring to regular status.

So while I agree that the decreasing diversity in Heroes' cast is a problem (don't watch Lost, can't comment, and BSG is almost over), it's being overly selective to focus on three shows and say that TV has become segregated. Although maybe it's significant that all the genre shows with strong African-American presences are on the same network, FOX.