Pushing Religion
- Thread starter The Master of Tarquin Hill
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I see a problem with that (well, two): first of all, if God wanted a relationship with other being, that means that He miss something, so He can't be perfect. I suppose that could be ok is some theologies, but not the mainstream ones. Then, if God wanted a relationship, why didn't He created a Being equal to Him, with Whom He could have an equal relationship, but a host of strictly inferior beings, that are inherently unworthy and unlovable, with the express purpose of being worshiped? That it's not very nice in my book.
But that doesn't answer the question why did God created us sinful in the first place. You say that that's because He gave us free well, the possibility of choosing between right and wrong. But, being sinful, we can actually only choose wrong, because, as you said, no one is good enough. So, no free will either. So, since there could be only two possible state (always right = God; always wrong = us), the only logical answer is that He created us sinful with the express purpose of exercising absolute power over us, and punish/not punish us only by His decision (justice/mercy) and not our deeds (that are, as stated, inherently wrong). So, even if at the end we are all forgiven, it's just a big play on the part of God. Sorry for the long-winded post, but theology hurts my logic center.
I understand that. I agree that nobody is perfectly good: it would be absurd to expect that. But the point of the discussion is that nobody is good. That's self-defeating.
Really, stop assuming that we don't follow your religion because of some terrible experience with churches and priests. I had none, and the same is true for most atheists. I oppose your religion (and any other religion) because to me they don't make sense.
Because there are other people than myself in the world, people I love and respect, and my purpose is to make the world a better place for them and all humanity, even when I'm long gone.
Well, that because there are quite a few atheists in here, and the board is secular in nature. I suppose that if I would be beaten with a six-foots long stick if I would post my opinions at a Christian forum.
As other said, I have the universe itself to be a testimony of its own existence. It does require an explanation of its existence, but not necessarily a justification.
That's actually fuzzy. Some parts of society are becoming more secular indeed. If secularization itself is immoral in your book, then your assertion is logical (even if I don't agree with you). But if you are talking about crime and unrest, actually our time is one of the most safe and prosperous in the entire existence of humanity. The "good ol' days" weren't really good. You are just getting old.
haha! I am pretty optimistic, but a lot of things are getting worse. Pornography used to be a back alley kind of thing. Now I can find it at the click of the mouse. But then again, I bet some of you don't see the problem with that either.
But while some things are going down, like morals in some instances, some things are going back up,
And to the other posters. The reason I assume bad experience with religion, is because most of the atheists I meet outside of this forum do cite horrible experiences with religion or a priest, etc as why they no longer believe.
Captain X
Rear Admiral
Hostile? No, I could care less whether someone believes in God, Allah, Budda, or Xenu, it's their actions and their attitudes toward others who don't share those beliefs that determine how critical I am of them. So no, I'm not "hostile" to a belief in God, I'm critical of the idea that you need a belief in God in order to be "moral" and I object to the idea of children being indoctrinated in beliefs they do not have the capacity to really understand yet.
That's because religion isn't needed for many of the things you describe.
I roll my eyes at that kind of thing to, but while it doesn't disprove the existence of a higher power, it does prove how contradictory the source material is, and how silly it is for fundamentalists to talk the way they do about the Bible being the absolute word of God which must be followed to the letter and so on and so forth. In that way it's just as fair for him to quote mine this as it was for you to quote mine something else to try to make your point about indoctrinating children, and how you saw it as wrong to not do so.
It doesn't "prove" anything, other than that the Judeo-Christian ideal of God probably is just that - an ideal. It also underlines the idea that God helps those who help themselves, which is to say instead of praying, one should get up off their ass and do something about their situation, but I digress.
What is "depraved" and "immoral" is in the eye of the beholder.
Heh, and just think, you're probably more optimistic about humanity in general that I am.
No, I don't see a problem with sexuality being more open and accessible. I also happen to like porn since I love women.
Morality is entirely subjective.
I don't really have any "horrible" experiences, other than from being badgered by stuck-up religious types. Mostly the reason I stopped going along with religion was because there were too many logical flaws, and because the idea of sitting in church while someone tells you something you can read and interpret for yourself didn't make sense to me either.
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Now watch this. I believe the atheist numbers for the US are very much on the low side, they are probably closer to 10-16%, not 3%.
Your statement appears to be the opposite of what is actually happening and, frankly, this does not surprise me. Belief in an eternal afterlife diminishes this life, however the belief that this life is the only life we have means that we focus much more on this life and try to make this world a better place for all. That is only my opinion, but evidence appears to me on my side.
Ok, too many point to respond to. But some general ideas.
Someone once told me "Pray as if it depended entirely on the Lord, get up and go to work as if it entirely depended upon you." That is my attitude.
I am sorry but morality is not as subjective as you think. Liking porn and liking women are two different things. Just ask any married men on this board and see if their wives are ok with them looking at pornography. By and large, it is very destructive to marriage relationships.
Well, I too tire of "fundamentalists" who say that the Bible is infallible. That isn't true in my eyes, but it doesn't have to be. It doesn't say anywhere in its text that it is. It does however still contain God's teachings and a sincere study of it would do any man or woman a lot of good.
Someone once told me "Pray as if it depended entirely on the Lord, get up and go to work as if it entirely depended upon you." That is my attitude.
I am sorry but morality is not as subjective as you think. Liking porn and liking women are two different things. Just ask any married men on this board and see if their wives are ok with them looking at pornography. By and large, it is very destructive to marriage relationships.
Well, I too tire of "fundamentalists" who say that the Bible is infallible. That isn't true in my eyes, but it doesn't have to be. It doesn't say anywhere in its text that it is. It does however still contain God's teachings and a sincere study of it would do any man or woman a lot of good.
Good of our own devices? I don't believe that we are, no. I believe that whatever good is in any of us, comes from God, from a higher source than ourselves. The stronger a relationship we have with Him, the more we find ourselves aided in tapping that good.
Any truth that we see in the world, wherever it is found--that is from God. I believe (much as the Eastern Orthodox believe) that there ARE good and truth in non-Christians, too...now, I do believe that it is the Christian God who is the source of all truth hence my decision to be a Christian. However, bearing this in mind does make a very compelling argument for showing respect towards others and one that I think all Christians should take note of!
And about the belief in the afterlife...you might be surprised to know that the effect of a "vision"/dream I had in which I had a pretty darned close brush with the afterlife was to make me value my current life MORE, not less. It's very hard to explain...it's very personal and paradoxical, but there's one believer's take on it.
I find this worldview pretty hideous, to be perfectly honest.
I have to agree with Jim, I find that statement hideous and vaguely insulting. I am not a good person because of some god, I am a good person because I am a good person. The decisions I have taken are what makes me a good person, the sacrifices I have made are what makes me a good person. To claim that I am only good because of a god negates who I am and what I have done.
You seem like a decent person to me, you have been very civil in this thread and I admire you for that. I would never dream to say that the goodness which is within your isn't your own, that would be incredibly unfair to you and who you are.
ok, I think we are talking about two different things.
What I think that Nerys Ghemor was saying or at least what I understood is that we are created with the Godly sense of wanting to do good. However, we still must choose to do good, as evidenced by the many people on this world who choose to do anything but good.
I think what is being said is that our desires to do good and our good actions are the echo of our divine nature.
But you are right, you are a good person ultimately because of what YOU do and think and are, etc. We are just crediting the source of your conscience.
What I think that Nerys Ghemor was saying or at least what I understood is that we are created with the Godly sense of wanting to do good. However, we still must choose to do good, as evidenced by the many people on this world who choose to do anything but good.
I think what is being said is that our desires to do good and our good actions are the echo of our divine nature.
But you are right, you are a good person ultimately because of what YOU do and think and are, etc. We are just crediting the source of your conscience.
It seems to me that what you are suggesting here is that the ease with which pornography can be accessed is due to the decline in morality, decency and so on, which can itself be attributed to an absence of traditional, religion based views.
Is that an accurate summation of your argument? I don't want to misunderstand this issue.
I am sure it is drastically more complicated than that. But if you want to give it a quick summary, then yeah, basically, I think a measure of decline in morality, and a snap shot of our departure from traditional values can be seen in how widespread and acceptable pornography has become.
^^ Could it not simply be that porn has become easier to access? As you say, you can find it at a click of a mouse, whereas before the 'net became so pervasive it was much more difficult to get hold of, 'back alley' as you describe.
The fact that there is more about does not necessarily indicate a greater demand (which, if we accept your basic premise, would suggest greater immorality). Rather, I'd suggest it merely shows greater availability. The anonymity of the web helps too. Some one who desperately desires pornography but is too embarrassed to purchase it in a shop would find it much easier online.
It's like the old argument about who was the most evil person in history (I realize this skates perilously close to Godwin's Law, but I feel it justified in this instance). Was Hitler more evil than Genghis Khan, or Caligula? Certainly more people died as a result of his orders, but was that because he was more evil, or was it simply because there were better resources at his disposal?
Dawkins describes morality as improving as time passes. Not in some perfectly straight incline with everyday getting inevitably better, but rather a jagged saw tooth improvement. There are points on the way when things do get worse, the progress falters. But in general things are getting better.
The fact that there is more about does not necessarily indicate a greater demand (which, if we accept your basic premise, would suggest greater immorality). Rather, I'd suggest it merely shows greater availability. The anonymity of the web helps too. Some one who desperately desires pornography but is too embarrassed to purchase it in a shop would find it much easier online.
It's like the old argument about who was the most evil person in history (I realize this skates perilously close to Godwin's Law, but I feel it justified in this instance). Was Hitler more evil than Genghis Khan, or Caligula? Certainly more people died as a result of his orders, but was that because he was more evil, or was it simply because there were better resources at his disposal?
Dawkins describes morality as improving as time passes. Not in some perfectly straight incline with everyday getting inevitably better, but rather a jagged saw tooth improvement. There are points on the way when things do get worse, the progress falters. But in general things are getting better.
I think a lot of things are getting better, as I said previously, but in the case of pornography, I don't think it is just a case of greater availability. And maybe the greater availability lead to greater immorality. But I think simple statistics, which are widely available, and the sheer number of "Adult entertainment" options, both free and not free show that there is a much greater demand now than previously. And the argument that pornography is not immoral or damaging has no leg to stand on.
Captain X
Rear Admiral
Morality is entirely subjective because what's moral for one person is not necessarily moral for another and vice versa with immorality.
They tend to be interdependent I find, in as much as I like porn because I like women.
First off, only married men count? Secondly, believe it or not, there are women who like porn too, and there are women who like being in porn who will give you an earful if you try to talk down to them by saying porn objectifies women.
It can be if one partner isn't paying enough attention to their partner because of it, but in many cases watching porn together can make for a healthy and interesting sex life.
All of the "good" teachings in it are pretty much just common sense anyway - treat others as you would want to be treated, don't murder people, don't steal their stuff, don't lie and set them up to get in trouble with the law - none of which require religion or belief in a higher power.
Tradition and traditional values are not always good things, so using it in the context of morality, which is entirely subjective, and pornography, which is judgmental, only has the effect of making me roll my eyes the same as you no doubt do when someone quote-mines the bible to invalidate your religious beliefs.
My wife and I have watched porn together. She knows I sometimes indulge in the wee hours, once in a blue moon.
You know why she's ok with it? Because she's not a prude, she's not an idiot, and she has no self esteem issues.
I'm sure our relationship will sound "immoral" to the likes of you, but frankly, after 6 years together and 5 of them happily married, I don't need to explain us to anyone.
If that's really the case, and not a misunderstanding on your part, these people will return to religion in some form eventually; a bad experience with religion is reason for turning away from religion not becoming an Atheist. Real Atheists are Rationalists.
As for "pornography," this is a blanket term for physical beauty and eroticism. It can't be immoral, because for something to be immoral some harm has to come of it.
Yup, it's all about the user not the material.
I didn't want to take up the entire page so I just picked this one point.
It sickens me when morality and ethics are equated with Religion and "God".
I follow a set of morals and ethics trained by many things, but least of all
my experience in Religion. And in what way are such things becoming worse?
I really don't see this. The worlds views and ideas are becoming more mixed
allowing for an exchange of ideas and ideals instead of being stuck in one
failed mentality.
And Captain X, I agree with your entire post!
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