Pushing Religion

[Jim Steele]

^

Then why point out that it's "not even an argument"?

That's like a press release from the Department of The Bleedin' Obvious.

So sure, you can view pornography, and forget that it is linked to sexual crime and divorce and spousal abuse (despite what a couple of posters here have said)

Park benches are linked to sexual crime. And if you want to respond to me, respond to me.

 

[Augustus]

I am so sorry, it is just that we were having a somewhat serious conversation when a garbage link became involved and I thought I would point out that I thought so. Didn't mean to offend with my point out the obvious.

 

[Jim Steele]

Oh for crying out loud, of course I'm not offended. I found the point entirely redundant. Never mind.

 

[Chimpy Chompy]

So sure, you can view pornography, and forget that it is linked to sexual crime and divorce and spousal abuse (despite what a couple of posters here have said)

"linked" is a very weak statement. Linked how?

 

[Jim Steele]

I'm wondering that as well.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

So sure, you can view pornography, and forget that it is linked to sexual crime...

Can I see some scientific evidence for this, because that seems to be contradicted by numerous studies from around the world in countries where pornography has become widely available.

http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/online_artcls/pornography/prngrphy_rape_jp.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2032762

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=913013

 

[Augustus]

I thought some of these links were interesting, I hope that work haha..Focus on the family had a series of articles on pornography addiction. I will continue to look for more articles.

And some experiences from my life: I have a close childhood friend, a few years older than me who can't have a normal relationship with a woman because of his severe internet porn addiction.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/04/01/national/a131130S42.DTL

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/mar...ornography/subtle_dangers_of_pornography.aspx

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/mar...ornography/pornography_and_your_marriage.aspx

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/marriage/facing_crisis/pornography/stages_of_porn_addiction.aspx

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2004/11/65772

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/dec/07120406.html

 

[Unicron]

My main issue with it, apart from thinking the assessment is inaccurate, is that when you start thinking that no one is good, and the world is going to crap, you start placing less value in human life and society. If no one is a good person, is killing them that big a deal? If the rule of law is the product of a depraved populace, why should you be subject to it?

Conversely, if your society is passing laws you consider to be immoral or not beneficial, what incentive do you have to try and fix it? If people are in need of help, why should you care? They're not good people anyway.

Indeed, and this is why I've said in my posts that this particular viewpoint is dangerous. I tend to be on the fence regarding the death penalty, in that I can see potential for it for truly heinous crimes, but I'm undecided. That's a topic for another thread.

Such a bleak outlook on life can also in extreme cases give rise to suicidal thoughts, and possibly with the combination of wanting to take other "bad" people with you as punishment or even to bring others with you to a "better place." The belief that no one is good and the world is a terrible place gives rise to suicide bombers / terrorists, people who go on mass shooting sprees, people who bomb abortion clinics, and people who murder homosexuals or other minorities. Religion is not the only source for people of this type of course, but this kind of depressing end-times-focused, humanity is inherently bad, looking forward to the next plane of existence rather than trying to live life to the fullest in this one type of thinking sure seems to spawn a lot of them.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that you, the other two that I quoted, or Christians / religious people in general fall into the categories I listed over the previous several paragraphs, it's just a trend that tends to bother me and seems more of a product of an extremist end times / afterlife focused bit of cultism within Christianity and some other religions like Islam.

One thing that has occurred to me, as a possibility for why this negative interpretation is becoming more common, is the fact that Christianity isn't the center of attention it used to be. Several centuries ago, it was common to attribute many things to the divine because it was a reasonable explanation then. But as science and empiricism gained footholds and we expanded our knowledge of how things work, that chipped away at the importance of the church. Nowadays many people don't rely on religion to explain the universe, because it's no longer necessary.

I think many Christians, understandably, are afraid of those gradual changes to human societies. They're afraid because they don't want the faith to lose the little bit of influence it still has in the world, and it can't rely much on empirical grounds to prove science wrong. All it can really offer is philosophy and subjective faith. I certainly don't mean to make it sound like religion is inferior, or make this a "science vs religion" thing. I just think it needs to be accepted that our concepts of knowledge have changed, and will continue to change, and that concepts like religion and science need to be updated and replaced when a better alternative presents itself. I think Christianity and other religions still have good to offer, but they need to get some things organized much better.

There are other Christians here and in public whose beliefs I understand and even admire (while not sharing the same beliefs myself). They use their faith as a source of strength and happiness, to help or support helping others, and they have a profound respect for life and their fellow human beings in the here and now. Some good examples of this on the board would be Jonathan Wally, Cultcross, Hoser, Captain Intrepid and J. Allen to name a few off the top of my head. That's the kind of religious belief I can get behind and think we need more of.

Yep. That's how it should be.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I thought some of these links were interesting, I hope that work haha..Focus on the family had a series of articles on pornography addiction. I will continue to look for more articles.

And some experiences from my life: I have a close childhood friend, a few years older than me who can't have a normal relationship with a woman because of his severe internet porn addiction.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/04/01/national/a131130S42.DTL

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/mar...ornography/subtle_dangers_of_pornography.aspx

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/mar...ornography/pornography_and_your_marriage.aspx

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/marriage/facing_crisis/pornography/stages_of_porn_addiction.aspx

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2004/11/65772

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/dec/07120406.html

So, that's a "no" on the scientific evidence of pornography being linked to sexual crime then?

 

[Augustus]

Interesting points Unicron. I think some religious people have a truly negative outlook on the world. I for one do not. For example, despite all of what I have posted, I am genuinely happy to be a part of this society, because I think we still do a TON of good in the world, but we have to recognize the fact that while we have embraced science and the new ways of learning we have also left behind some of our core principles and that can hurt us down the road.

Also, I say with total sincerity that as science marches along and discovers more truth, it will eventually align itself with true religious principle. I am not talking about evolution vs creationsim, or aliens or stem cell research and all that. That is not religious principle. That is a bunch of religious people expressing political opinions.

What I speak of is true religious principle about a God and our nature and a right way of living.

 

[Augustus]

I thought some of these links were interesting, I hope that work haha..Focus on the family had a series of articles on pornography addiction. I will continue to look for more articles.

And some experiences from my life: I have a close childhood friend, a few years older than me who can't have a normal relationship with a woman because of his severe internet porn addiction.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/04/01/national/a131130S42.DTL

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/mar...ornography/subtle_dangers_of_pornography.aspx

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/mar...ornography/pornography_and_your_marriage.aspx

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/marriage/facing_crisis/pornography/stages_of_porn_addiction.aspx

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2004/11/65772

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/dec/07120406.html

So, that's a "no" on the scientific evidence of pornography being linked to sexual crime then.

actually if you went through all the links, many books, studies and reports are cited the tell show what pornography causes, and I found this in just 10 minutes on the internet... Something I thought was interesting though was one group was asking money from congress (a few years ago) to do a brain map study on pornography addiction. Makes me think that a lot of research simply hasn't been done yet.

Plus I read through your links and the studies seemed to want to answer the question does porno cause rape. Well that seems kind of intuitive, If pornography caused rape, practically every man on the earth would be committing rape. Pornography addiction however is a different matter, and rape is not the only sexual crime or abuse.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

actually if you went through all the links, many books, studies and reports are cited the tell show what pornography causes, and I found this in just 10 minutes on the internet... Something I thought was interesting though was one group was asking money from congress (a few years ago) to do a brain map study on pornography addiction. Makes me think that a lot of research simply hasn't been done yet.

Plus I read through your links and the studies seemed to want to answer the question does porno cause rape. Well that seems kind of intuitive, If pornography caused rape, practically every man on the earth would be committing rape. Pornography addiction however is a different matter, and rape is not the only sexual crime or abuse.

I did read the links, thanks. A few of them cite the same person (who posits that because of the influence of porn 60% of men would commit rape if they could get away with it, so pardon me if I'm a tad skeptical of her motives or logic), none of them conduct scientific studies, most of them have nothing to do with sex crimes - which is what I inquired about, and all of them cite sources seeking to drastically curtail or outlaw pornography, so gee, I wonder what side of the issue they're going to take?

The only "sexual crime" pornography ever seemed to increase were obscenity charges, and that's not exactly an honest point there, is it, since it seeks to make the pornography itself the crime, rather than the results of viewing it?

Still waiting on that scientific study linking pornography to sexual crimes. I don't want to hear about porn addiction, divorce, or any other such tangents, because last time I checked those weren't crimes.

 

[Augustus]

Well, it is kind of common sense to think that what we view influences us. That is hardly arguable.

Here are some other things I found
http://www.obscenitycrimes.org/news/Porn-Crime-Link-RWP-NR.cfm

http://www.contentwatch.com/learn_center/article/107

And by the way, the rest of my post on societal obligation on page 8 went un-bothered and un-responded to. So the only thing anyone here seems have a quibble about from that post is that pornography is linked to sexual crimes.

cool

 

[Jim Steele]

Well, it is kind of common sense to think that what we view influences us. That is hardly arguable.

There's a giant leap from that to "60% of men would commit rape".

Which is bullshit of the highest order.

 

[Augustus]

so is pornography

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Nice sidestep. So do you think that 60% of men would commit rape if they could get away with it, or are you admitting that the sources you provided were bullshit?

 

[Augustus]

I think what it was referring to was 60% of men who viewed pornography regularly would rape or force a woman to do something she didn't want to do if they were sure they could do so with impunity.

To me the "do so with impunity" the "or" and that they regularly view pornography, is the thing that makes it high.

 

[Jim Steele]

so is pornography

So you're saying "pornography is bullshit".

Ok, what exactly does that mean?

 

[Augustus]

I just mean that it is passed off as legitimate and acceptable entertainment or indulgence.

 

[Jim Steele]

I just mean that it is passed off as legitimate and acceptable entertainment or indulgence.

It is. Provided the people making it or featured in it aren't being exploited, I don't see what the issue is. I'd apply that to all forms of entertainment.

You obviously think it's not for you, and that's fine, but it seems like many people on your side of the fence desperately try to paint it as a "danger to society" to lend some legitimacy to your finger wagging.

I see the same nonsense going on when so-called christians in TNZ argue that homosexuality is "immoral". As if the bedroom activities of two consenting adults are any of their business.

You haven't got a leg to stand on, frankly. None of you can provide any credible evidence to back up your assertions.