Ezri II
Captain
YES!!
If there is going to be a new trek series, it will have to mirror the BSG.
Enterprise should of had seven seasons
- Thread starter darkshadow0001
- Start date
YES!!
If there is going to be a new trek series, it will have to mirror the BSG.
Why? The new movie I think proves otherwise and while it may or may not become a series I can see Star Trek heading in that direction not Battlestar Galactica's.
People think BSG is not optimistic because it's more realistic and serious?
Huh... I've never seen BSG as pessimistic.
You can't have optimistic realism, that's an oxymoron.
I don't think nuBSG would work as Star Trek because the characters are constantly being tormented somehow. From what I've heard about the last ten episodes, things are only going to get worse for them. Name one person on that show who is happy. The only person I can think of is Baltar, and he's the villain! So the egotistical guy responsible for the annihilation of the human race is happy, and the good guys are all miserable.
It's true to life, but it's not Star Trek.
Yeah that's true but I don't think the fourth season was as great as people made it out to be either for that matter. However I don't think it was Enterprise that failer per se, it was Star Trek in the end that failed, never expected Enterprise to last seven seasons like the last three series did, Star Trek had been dying since 1991 IMO.
Ezri II
Captain
Battlestar Galactica has a long and deep story. Battlestar Galactica did not do a single reboot with their show. Battlestar Galactica has feelings, it has life, the charactors are ALIVE. They love, they hate, they get drunk, they get hurt, they ACT HUMAN.
With ENTERPRISE, the actors just read their lines and that was that. Enterprise was so dry, the BORG are more interesting. Heck, the actors could have done a voice over with the viewers seeing a pot of water come to a boil. Yes, even cooking shows just to learn how to make eggs, toast and coffee is a toss up what is more interesting to watch.
They act depressed and at times the writing is soap operaish and both shows had four seasons a piece.
not a big fan of BSG and belive me I did try, I was preying for some good sci-fi.
My problems revolve around the depressing nature of it, and issues with the tech levels, somehow they have faster than light travel, yet their weapons suck etc.
Also why no aliens?
My problems revolve around the depressing nature of it, and issues with the tech levels, somehow they have faster than light travel, yet their weapons suck etc.
Also why no aliens?
Given Galactica's ratings I don't think it matters if they could have a fifth season or not, they aren't it's just that simple. Of course had Enterprise gotten higher ratings the same would true for them a well.
Because they don't need aliens for the story they are telling, throwing aliens in for the sake of having aliens would be gratuitous. It is trying to explore what it means to be human, whether or not we are worthy of survival, and how human history is a series of cycles. "All this has happened before, and all of it will happen again".
I can fully understand why it is not a lot of people's cup of tea, but I think it is fascinating.
It's still not Star Trek material.
I've gone back and forth on this so many times, especially recently after re-watching the series in it's entirety - in order (I had a bad flu - so there were a few LONG days of Enterprise while my wife was at work.) Selfishly, I didn't want that viewing marathon to end - and I miss the show a lot. It's what brought me to the forums and began really getting me interested in other opinions on the show (which I've enjoyed a lot - both the positive ones, and most of the thoughtful negative ones that give alternate ideas about directions that could've improved the show from the beginning.)
So, I'll apologize for a long post, as well as if I repeat old thoughts/topics - I've only been here a short time - so it might not be fresh, but it's how i feel. I also am not writing this post to criticize the writing or B and B (I have strong feelings there - but this isn't the post for that.), so much as to try and really think about the reality of what S's 5-7 might have meant.
As a business person in the entertainment field, I understand and have no choice but to respect some (not all) of the decisions that led to ENTs cancellation, especially those centering on budget issues. Enterprise was expensive to produce correctly, and Paramount surely did right by the show visually, and I, for one, am glad they didn't keep it around only to then slash production values like they did to TOS in S3.
BUT (and it's a big BUT) I do think that Enterprise was not given the benefit of a stable and supportive network. That wouldn't have changed in the short term, and I do think that trying to get accurate ratings for the product was not really possible as well. UPN was an incomplete network, not serving all available markets, and had a spotty reputation, at best. (Aside from the fact UPN's demographic just grew to be so wrong for ENT - I always wished it was syndicated,---#1 - a larger potential audience #2 - Probably a more stable set of time slots and #3 - I couldn't believe I, myself, was watching a network that aired nothing else of value. UPN was not a network that spoke to adult, educated minds - I laughed whenever I had to watch the commercials for the other 'programming.')
People less and less watch anything at the time it's broadcast - I TIVO or, hulu, or whatever - and all of my friends do as well. In addition to a 9 to 5 career, I also produce and perform musically, and that's takes up my evenings. So - especially when ENT moved to Friday - I couldn't stay at home to watch it - and why would I when I could watch at my leisure whenever I wanted? (In other words, even though traditional ratings technically declined in the fourth season - I am of the opinion that was an erroneous calculation that would've been different if TIVO and the like had been a part of the calculation system as it is now.) I know that it's widely thought that ENT had eroded everything it had left, but I still think what it did have wasn't correctly counted. No matter, that was what it was. No matter how you calculate it - ENT didn't hold the audience until it was too late. Air the best of S1+2 as S1, air S3, then 4, and maybe it'd have held an audience a bit better (again, another topic, sorry.)
I'd be totally pleased if I had another 3 boxes of DVDs here to watch quality episodes. Enterprise (IMHO) hit it's stride in seasons 3 and 4 and IF that's what we would've gotten more of in the future - great! However, if seasons 5-7 would've continued with many of the inconsistencies that continued from the beginning up to cancellation, I think it was positive all around that ENT was allowed to conclude with as much as we got, and for ST to take a rest. I didn't want ST:New Idea, I wanted either GOOD ENT or for there to be a rest.
----
As with everything in the computer age, Enterprise was start-to-finish a show that was actively discussed on the internet. Frankly - with a lot of what was being said on franchise forums about the show, I can see how that would influence even those who were 50/50 about the show into focusing more on the negatives than the positives. That's just human nature when negatives are pointed out to you. So - if the mentality of "nothing the people at ENT create will ever be good enough, the premise is so fundamentally flawed that it never should've made it out of spacedock, or too many mistakes have already piled up and it's beyond hope, or Manny can only do so much, etc." were to continue permeate the collective consciousness of many of the vocal watchers or detractors of the show, no matter what changes were already in progress or could've sprung forth in season 5-7 would've made no difference. Many of sci-fi's own voices had already overwhelmed the community. Still to this day, I'm sure any forum-hopper knows how dangerous the word Enterprise can be.
Obviously, ENT wasn't coming from a very nurturing outside environment, except for that core group of loyal supporters, so I can see where any studio would have ambivalent thoughts about continued production. People with negative opinions often speak them louder and always get more attention, media-wise, than those who may like a show. Normal fans don't go online and try and combat the vehement postings of those who hate, in this case, ENT. With that being said...
The outporing of love from those who genuinely cared for the show, upon cancellation, was beyond anything I had seen or noticed before. If that love and support had been behind it so vocally since day one, we wouldn't have faced cancellation at all, most likely. But we who loved ENT were faced the difficulty of our own community excising and ridiculing us, coupled with some decisions creatively (internally) with ENT's direction that were only fueling the fire. I know that many people who hate ENT feel that it was just the lowest of the low and that they weren't ever going to accept anything about it, it was crap on their boots, the writers were pandering to the lowest common denominator, or just recycling old, tired ideas. What about all the great things about the show - for me, to many to list - (and I'm sure everyone who appreciates the show would list different things anyway.)
It's everyone's right love or hate what they will, but many science fiction fans hated ENT right out of existance, many tried to hate it right out of the universe (ie. erase it from canon.) It's almost 4 years later and people are still waiting in the wings to go after anyone who says the wrong thing praising ENT.
No matter what, It was by no means the bottom of the barrel when it came to science fiction on TV. It had a lot of potential - and though it took a while (too long, obviously) it began to realize that potential as it found it's voice in later seasons. TNG was pretty bad in the beginning too, but because fans were starved for Trek, it was accepted. Enterprise got no slack whatsoever. It was nitpicked to death from day one.
I'm too young to have been around for the TOS campaigns. Enterprise was the first anti-cancellation campaign I ever joined and supported. It disappoints me that Les Moonves' contempt for the the show (only going by what I've read) and Paramount's desire to jettison Rick Berman from Star Trek (I think I would have a hard look at the man at the helm if I was reading the backlash from franchise fans that brewed on the internet about ENT - as well as the ratings decline) put a good show in an impossible position.
ENT was tons better than much of the drek on TV, no matter how you slice it, and having it replaced with reality show type bs was a kick in the teeth. I still maintain that ENT had a terrific cast (in fact, I feel most sorry for the cast when it's all said and done. They did, what in my opinion, was the best job anyone could with what they were given, and got zero respect.), a terrific support team (esp. VFX), and was shortchanged in promotion and ratings calculation. I don't think that, given the way the deck was stacked, and the previous writing and storyline direction issues that hurt the series from the beginning, that there would've been enough confidence in future seasons to allow them to proceed in a manner than still maintained the budget and kept the quality we expected and deserved. I wouldn't have wanted bastardized ENT in any way, shape or form.
So, to end my rambling. I would have loved 7 seasons, DEFINITELY. Would I have wanted 3 more status quo seasons without continuing to improve significantly beyond season 4, no way. I wanted to know Travis and Hoshi. I wanted to see the fleshing out of Starfleet, and see more starfleet ships and commanders and crews. I wanted to enjoy more of Vulcan and watch as they grew to be the people that fascinated me while viewing in the 80's and 90's. I wanted to see in the flesh much of what I knew (from reading what I'm sure most have read) was potentially coming up in the future on the series. For some reason - just reading that small list of story ideas makes me feel better. I wanted ENT, as it was just finding it's voice by it's cancellation, to scream during 5-7 .
Should it have had 7 seasons - definitely - if they'd have been continually improving creatively. The cast of Enterprise will always be top notch in my mind, and if they'd have had a powerful voice behind their continued journey for three more years - nothing would've made me happier on the entertainment side...
rhodeschroma.
So, I'll apologize for a long post, as well as if I repeat old thoughts/topics - I've only been here a short time - so it might not be fresh, but it's how i feel. I also am not writing this post to criticize the writing or B and B (I have strong feelings there - but this isn't the post for that.), so much as to try and really think about the reality of what S's 5-7 might have meant.
As a business person in the entertainment field, I understand and have no choice but to respect some (not all) of the decisions that led to ENTs cancellation, especially those centering on budget issues. Enterprise was expensive to produce correctly, and Paramount surely did right by the show visually, and I, for one, am glad they didn't keep it around only to then slash production values like they did to TOS in S3.
BUT (and it's a big BUT) I do think that Enterprise was not given the benefit of a stable and supportive network. That wouldn't have changed in the short term, and I do think that trying to get accurate ratings for the product was not really possible as well. UPN was an incomplete network, not serving all available markets, and had a spotty reputation, at best. (Aside from the fact UPN's demographic just grew to be so wrong for ENT - I always wished it was syndicated,---#1 - a larger potential audience #2 - Probably a more stable set of time slots and #3 - I couldn't believe I, myself, was watching a network that aired nothing else of value. UPN was not a network that spoke to adult, educated minds - I laughed whenever I had to watch the commercials for the other 'programming.')
People less and less watch anything at the time it's broadcast - I TIVO or, hulu, or whatever - and all of my friends do as well. In addition to a 9 to 5 career, I also produce and perform musically, and that's takes up my evenings. So - especially when ENT moved to Friday - I couldn't stay at home to watch it - and why would I when I could watch at my leisure whenever I wanted? (In other words, even though traditional ratings technically declined in the fourth season - I am of the opinion that was an erroneous calculation that would've been different if TIVO and the like had been a part of the calculation system as it is now.) I know that it's widely thought that ENT had eroded everything it had left, but I still think what it did have wasn't correctly counted. No matter, that was what it was. No matter how you calculate it - ENT didn't hold the audience until it was too late. Air the best of S1+2 as S1, air S3, then 4, and maybe it'd have held an audience a bit better (again, another topic, sorry.)
I'd be totally pleased if I had another 3 boxes of DVDs here to watch quality episodes. Enterprise (IMHO) hit it's stride in seasons 3 and 4 and IF that's what we would've gotten more of in the future - great! However, if seasons 5-7 would've continued with many of the inconsistencies that continued from the beginning up to cancellation, I think it was positive all around that ENT was allowed to conclude with as much as we got, and for ST to take a rest. I didn't want ST:New Idea, I wanted either GOOD ENT or for there to be a rest.
----
As with everything in the computer age, Enterprise was start-to-finish a show that was actively discussed on the internet. Frankly - with a lot of what was being said on franchise forums about the show, I can see how that would influence even those who were 50/50 about the show into focusing more on the negatives than the positives. That's just human nature when negatives are pointed out to you. So - if the mentality of "nothing the people at ENT create will ever be good enough, the premise is so fundamentally flawed that it never should've made it out of spacedock, or too many mistakes have already piled up and it's beyond hope, or Manny can only do so much, etc." were to continue permeate the collective consciousness of many of the vocal watchers or detractors of the show, no matter what changes were already in progress or could've sprung forth in season 5-7 would've made no difference. Many of sci-fi's own voices had already overwhelmed the community. Still to this day, I'm sure any forum-hopper knows how dangerous the word Enterprise can be.
Obviously, ENT wasn't coming from a very nurturing outside environment, except for that core group of loyal supporters, so I can see where any studio would have ambivalent thoughts about continued production. People with negative opinions often speak them louder and always get more attention, media-wise, than those who may like a show. Normal fans don't go online and try and combat the vehement postings of those who hate, in this case, ENT. With that being said...
The outporing of love from those who genuinely cared for the show, upon cancellation, was beyond anything I had seen or noticed before. If that love and support had been behind it so vocally since day one, we wouldn't have faced cancellation at all, most likely. But we who loved ENT were faced the difficulty of our own community excising and ridiculing us, coupled with some decisions creatively (internally) with ENT's direction that were only fueling the fire. I know that many people who hate ENT feel that it was just the lowest of the low and that they weren't ever going to accept anything about it, it was crap on their boots, the writers were pandering to the lowest common denominator, or just recycling old, tired ideas. What about all the great things about the show - for me, to many to list - (and I'm sure everyone who appreciates the show would list different things anyway.)
It's everyone's right love or hate what they will, but many science fiction fans hated ENT right out of existance, many tried to hate it right out of the universe (ie. erase it from canon.) It's almost 4 years later and people are still waiting in the wings to go after anyone who says the wrong thing praising ENT.
No matter what, It was by no means the bottom of the barrel when it came to science fiction on TV. It had a lot of potential - and though it took a while (too long, obviously) it began to realize that potential as it found it's voice in later seasons. TNG was pretty bad in the beginning too, but because fans were starved for Trek, it was accepted. Enterprise got no slack whatsoever. It was nitpicked to death from day one.
I'm too young to have been around for the TOS campaigns. Enterprise was the first anti-cancellation campaign I ever joined and supported. It disappoints me that Les Moonves' contempt for the the show (only going by what I've read) and Paramount's desire to jettison Rick Berman from Star Trek (I think I would have a hard look at the man at the helm if I was reading the backlash from franchise fans that brewed on the internet about ENT - as well as the ratings decline) put a good show in an impossible position.
ENT was tons better than much of the drek on TV, no matter how you slice it, and having it replaced with reality show type bs was a kick in the teeth. I still maintain that ENT had a terrific cast (in fact, I feel most sorry for the cast when it's all said and done. They did, what in my opinion, was the best job anyone could with what they were given, and got zero respect.), a terrific support team (esp. VFX), and was shortchanged in promotion and ratings calculation. I don't think that, given the way the deck was stacked, and the previous writing and storyline direction issues that hurt the series from the beginning, that there would've been enough confidence in future seasons to allow them to proceed in a manner than still maintained the budget and kept the quality we expected and deserved. I wouldn't have wanted bastardized ENT in any way, shape or form.
So, to end my rambling. I would have loved 7 seasons, DEFINITELY. Would I have wanted 3 more status quo seasons without continuing to improve significantly beyond season 4, no way. I wanted to know Travis and Hoshi. I wanted to see the fleshing out of Starfleet, and see more starfleet ships and commanders and crews. I wanted to enjoy more of Vulcan and watch as they grew to be the people that fascinated me while viewing in the 80's and 90's. I wanted to see in the flesh much of what I knew (from reading what I'm sure most have read) was potentially coming up in the future on the series. For some reason - just reading that small list of story ideas makes me feel better. I wanted ENT, as it was just finding it's voice by it's cancellation, to scream during 5-7 .
Should it have had 7 seasons - definitely - if they'd have been continually improving creatively. The cast of Enterprise will always be top notch in my mind, and if they'd have had a powerful voice behind their continued journey for three more years - nothing would've made me happier on the entertainment side...
rhodeschroma.
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Terrific post, rhodeschroma. Worth every word. 
And welcome to the forum.
And welcome to the forum.
While new BSG may be a 'critical' success, it was NEVER a real ratings success after the mini-series (the series got the same ratings as all of the Sci-Fi channel's other shows - and lately has done worse than the Stargates and 'B-Movie Saturday. Also, when NBC tried the show and aired the mini and a couple episodes a few months later - it got the lowest ratings on the network for that Saturday slot in the past 20 years).
Hell, if you compare nuBSG's rating performance to ENT's it looses in every category (especially considering Sci-Fi and UPN had a similar coverage rate across the U.S. even though UPN was a 'network' and ;Sci-Fi' was a cable channel):
nuBSG mini-series: 4 million Viewers
ENT Premire: 12 million viewers
Average viewership over the entire run of nuBSG to date: 2 million
Average viewership over the entire run of ENT on UPN: 4 million (it started with a 6 million average viewership in season 1(
Final season viewership average:
nuBSG: 1.5 million
ENT: 3 million
Bottom line - nuBSG started strong and had a lot of buzz in it's first season, but really started dropping the ball and bleeding its auduence big time about halfway through season 2. Enet started well, but continued the slow viewership bleed that EVERY modern Star Trek series expierienced after TNG finished its run.
I also think that while the first season of niBSG was well written, subsequent seasons were and have not been, and RDM for a long time was more concerned with trying to win an Emmy for nuBSG rather than attempting to write a coherant story overall for nuBSG. Hell, during his major Emmy campaign, he was even sorry/upset it was a science fiction show he was working on.
I have watched, and will watch the remaining episodes of nuBSG just to see if RDM can pull something good out of that mess he's made; but (IMO and YMMV); I hardly think nuBSG is the show to hold up as either the pinnicle of science fiction television; or as an example of how to write a good science fiction series.
Interesting post, rhodeschoma and welcome to the forum. I've seen a few "anti-cancellation" campaigns: Angel, Farscape, Firefly .... I think the only one that was successful was Farscape. I was disappointed Enterprise wasn't given more time, but I don't think it's entirely the network's fault. (Even if I think a good majority was the networks'.)
EzriII, I like BSG, well, mostly, but I think it's very gimmicky. I kinda feel like they pusue conflict for conflict sake without a real progression. Adama hit Tigh and ... nothing happened out of it and it came out of no where. There is some good stuff though. I think Ron Moore might be more talented than Braga; he may've been the stronger writer.
EzriII, I like BSG, well, mostly, but I think it's very gimmicky. I kinda feel like they pusue conflict for conflict sake without a real progression. Adama hit Tigh and ... nothing happened out of it and it came out of no where. There is some good stuff though. I think Ron Moore might be more talented than Braga; he may've been the stronger writer.
I just wanted to echo HolidayRomantic and commodore64 in saying that rhodeschroma's post was very thorough and on point.
To comment on nuBSG: My boyfriend is always saying how it seems like the writers are winging it. (It was fun in the beginning, in seasons 1 and 2 but I somewhat lost interest after that; although, I will check out those webisodes when I have the time, though).
I do realize that many were saying that Star Trek should follow nuBSG, however, the upcoming film shows that Trek is going back to its roots of being a fun, adventurous space show.
I do want to tie it on the main topic of ENT, but--again--rhodeschroma's post said it all, me thinks.
To comment on nuBSG: My boyfriend is always saying how it seems like the writers are winging it. (It was fun in the beginning, in seasons 1 and 2 but I somewhat lost interest after that; although, I will check out those webisodes when I have the time, though).
I do realize that many were saying that Star Trek should follow nuBSG, however, the upcoming film shows that Trek is going back to its roots of being a fun, adventurous space show.
I do want to tie it on the main topic of ENT, but--again--rhodeschroma's post said it all, me thinks.
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