Each time I see Revenge of the Sith...

[zenophite]

But the second trilogy certainly had a built-in audience.
Yeah, everyone says the second trilogy was a slam dunk. But there was a lot of controversy around here about the fact that I wasn't doing the obvious -- I wasn't doing the commercial version of what people expected. People expected Episode III, which is where Anakin turns into Darth Vader, to be Episode I. And then they expected Episodes II and III to be Darth Vader going around cutting people's heads off and terrorizing the universe. But how did he get to be Darth Vader? You have to explore him in relationships, and you have to see where he started. He was a sweet kid, helpful, just like most people imagine themselves to be. Most people said, "This guy must have been a horrible little brat -- a demon child." But the point is, he wasn't born that way -- he became that way and thought he was doing the right thing. He eventually realizes he's going down the dark path, but he thinks it's justifiable. The idea is to see how a democracy becomes a dictatorship, and how a good person goes bad -- and still, in the end, thinks he's doing the right thing.

I'm not sure what he means by "not doing the commercial version" because alot about SW is about commercialism. In any case I think the results on the screen do not reflect what he is saying his goals were. I would say he failed (perhaps miserably) to show precisely what he is describing i.e. the gradual turning of a character into an evil person in a believable way within the context of the science fiction universe he created.

 

[DWF]

But the second trilogy certainly had a built-in audience.
Yeah, everyone says the second trilogy was a slam dunk. But there was a lot of controversy around here about the fact that I wasn't doing the obvious -- I wasn't doing the commercial version of what people expected. People expected Episode III, which is where Anakin turns into Darth Vader, to be Episode I. And then they expected Episodes II and III to be Darth Vader going around cutting people's heads off and terrorizing the universe. But how did he get to be Darth Vader? You have to explore him in relationships, and you have to see where he started. He was a sweet kid, helpful, just like most people imagine themselves to be. Most people said, "This guy must have been a horrible little brat -- a demon child." But the point is, he wasn't born that way -- he became that way and thought he was doing the right thing. He eventually realizes he's going down the dark path, but he thinks it's justifiable. The idea is to see how a democracy becomes a dictatorship, and how a good person goes bad -- and still, in the end, thinks he's doing the right thing.

I'm not sure what he means by "not doing the commercial version" because alot about SW is about commercialism. In any case I think the results on the screen do not reflect what he is saying his goals were. I would say he failed (perhaps miserably) to show precisely what he is describing i.e. the gradual turning of a character into an evil person in a believable way within the context of the science fiction universe he created.

I can't agree Anakin did in the end what he thought was right, he kept getting visions of Padme's death and upon going to Yoda for advice Yoda tells him to let go of what fears to lose, Paplatine on the other hand tells him of a way to raise the dead but it can't be learned from a Jedi if given that choice I think most good people would choose to do what Anakin did.

And Anakin was clearly in conflict thoughout the movie he's forced to be on the Council by Palpatine to spy on the Jedi who refuse to make him a Master and tell though Obi-Wan tell him to spy on Palpatine for them which is something felt for Anakin. Anakin is told one thing from Jedi who he's grown to trust and another thing by Palpatine who he discovers is the Sith Lord they're all looking for yet he can't kill him since Paplatine is his only way of bringing Padme back to life so can't lose another love one in his life like how he lost his mother.

I don't see how Lucas failed in that regard at all.

 

[Kegek]

He was a sweet kid, helpful, just like most people imagine themselves to be. Most people said, "This guy must have been a horrible little brat -- a demon child." But the point is, he wasn't born that way -- he became that way and thought he was doing the right thing. He eventually realizes he's going down the dark path, but he thinks it's justifiable. The idea is to see how a democracy becomes a dictatorship, and how a good person goes bad -- and still, in the end, thinks he's doing the right thing.

Which is an interesting idea. I think if Lucas had realised something closer to what this intends in the prequel trilogy they'd be good movies. As I said earlier upthread, IMHO, execution and not concept is the failure of the prequel trilogy. There are a lot of good ideas buried in there; but poorly handled and delivered. This is a good example. One could see how the corruption of Anakin and the Republic could be tragic.

 

[zenophite]

I can't agree Anakin did in the end what he thought was right, he kept getting visions of Padme's death and upon going to Yoda for advice Yoda tells him to let go of what fears to lose, Paplatine on the other hand tells him of a way to raise the dead but it can't be learned from a Jedi if given that choice I think most good people would choose to do what Anakin did.

And Anakin was clearly in conflict thoughout the movie he's forced to be on the Council by Palpatine to spy on the Jedi who refuse to make him a Master and tell though Obi-Wan tell him to spy on Palpatine for them which is something felt for Anakin. Anakin is told one thing from Jedi who he's grown to trust and another thing by Palpatine who he discovers is the Sith Lord they're all looking for yet he can't kill him since Paplatine is his only way of bringing Padme back to life so can't lose another love one in his life like how he lost his mother.

I don't see how Lucas failed in that regard at all.

I think the devil is in the details. I think your summary is a good one and in general terms it might even have been successful but I think the particulars of the execution just did not make it a believable or satisfying transition to evil.

There is an abrubtness to it that simply does not ring true. Few people if any, even those born with the serial killer instincts, just go out from one moment to the next and start slaughtering children and relative innocents. even born killers start off with little things and gradually increase the severity of their acts. that's why torturing animals at a young age is an indicator of future trouble.

Yet Anakin did not show in any way that he was emotionally unhinged. Brooding maybe, unhappy about things certainly, but to all of a sudden take the word of someone you just discovered to be the arch-enemy of your order and then start killing children to maybe have a chance of saving your wife? Maybe if he had already showed consistent leanings in that direction (not just the isolated case of anger fueled revenge against sand people) but I feel that the way it was shown on screen was simply not convincing, at least for me.

 

[DWF]

There is an abrubtness to it that simply does not ring true. Few people if any, even those born with the serial killer instincts, just go out from one moment to the next and start slaughtering children and relative innocents. even born killers start off with little things and gradually increase the severity of their acts. that's why torturing animals at a young age is an indicator of future trouble.

Except that Anakin didn't want to do those evil things in his eyes he was doing what he thought was right the same can said for Paplatine, people who're really evil will rarely if ever admit to being evil they just believe that they have different point of view which somehow justifies their evil actions, yet Anakin knew all along what he was doing was wrong and I think you could see that when he cried after killing the Seperatist leaders.

 

[zenophite]

Except that Anakin didn't want to do those evil things in his eyes he was doing what he thought was right

Actually that's not really true. He knew what he was doing was wrong but was willing to do it for the sake of saving padme.

the same can said for Paplatine, people who're really evil will rarely if ever admit to being evil they just believe that they have different point of view which somehow justifies their evil actions,

This is true but I don't think this was displayed in this case. Palpatine's motives beyond destroying the Jedi are not explained.

yet Anakin knew all along what he was doing was wrong and I think you could see that when he cried after killing the Seperatist leaders.

I think this is a little contradictory to what you had said above. He cried, yes, but we are talking about wholesale murder of not only the Separatists but of children all taken in exchange for a hope that he can save padme.

 

[DWF]

I think this is a little contradictory to what you had said above. He cried, yes, but we are talking about wholesale murder of not only the Separatists but of children all taken in exchange for a hope that he can save padme.

No, I took the tears to mean that he knew all along what he was doing was wrong even Padme's last words were echoed by Luke in ROTJ that there was still good in him the Emperor hadn't driven it from him totality.

Palpatine's motives beyond destroying the Jedi are not explained.

He wanted peace and he thought the Jedi was the source of the corruption, it's probably the way he was trained and it seemed as though he passed that on to Anakin as well, Anakin also cried after killing the Raider village as well.

Palpatine

Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy. And... we shall have... peace.

Anakin

Don't lecture me, Obi-Wan. I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the Dark Side as you do! I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire!

I like what Ian McDiarmid had to say about Palpatine.

http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/bts/profile/f20020124/indexp2.html

He has no sorrow about his mistakes, just pure anger?
Just anger. And his great strength is that he's not fearful, which of course is also young Skywalker's great strength, and ultimately Vader's too. It's understanding both sides of fear -- how it's important not to be fearful in order to not stop yourself from doing things you believe and know to be right. At the same time, it's on the dark side -- terror is what he specializes in. It's what motivates him and governs his every action -- his understanding of the nature of terror. He believes that everybody can be terrorized, or seduced by one thing or another.

Which I do think we see happen to Anakin in ROTS and as Yoda said fear and anger lead to the dark side of the Force.

 

[zenophite]

^ I can see some of your points. Certainly as you look at it closely there is enough ambiguity that one might go either way on the issue. I suppose it's all in how you perceive these things.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

Anakin should not have been motivated by loving wifey too much. That's too whiny and pathetic of a motive to synch up with someone who becomes the Incarnation of Evil. There's only one good motive that can lead someone to Vader-hood, and that's Lust for Power. A clever script could have convinced us that Anakin had deluded himself he was after something else - protecting his loved ones - but still made crystal clear that he was a hypocrite and it was power he loved above all.

It'd be harder to buy his redemption in ROTJ then. I think the idea in ROTS was sound, even if lacking in execution. Anakin becomes Vader with good intentions; and slaughters Tusken innocents out of love for his mother. He reacts badly but with good intentions; becomes corrupted by that and goes under. If he knew and plotted all along simply for the acquiring of power; well, he'd be no different than the Emperor (which would make that character redundant and his seduction of Anakin; one of the more interesting things in ROTS, a waste of time).

Essentially, Vader ceases to be Vader for the same reason he became Vader: Love of family. Mom dies; he kills the Tuskens in revenge. He tries to save his wife and becomes the Dark Lord. When the Emperor threatens to kill his son he shafts him. His actions may be inconsistent; but his motive is frequently the same.

It's already hard to buy his redemption in RotJ, because it comes completely out of the blue. Up until "It's too late for me, son", Vader has been shown to be motivated by only a few simple things - lust for power "You have no idea the power of the Dark Side", respect for the religion of the Force "I find your lack of faith disturbing" (which also feeds into his idea of the Force as a road to power), and his need to prove himself to his old master "I must face him, alone". He is set up as a character who believes in the philosophy of the Force, but the flip side of the coin from the philosophy put forth by Ben and Yoda, and he wants to prove to Obi-Wan that he is right about the Force and Obi-Wan is wrong. For him to suddenly show up motivated by love of family - the same family he maimed because Luke would not bow to him, the same family he shortly thereafter threatens ("Sister? If you will not turn to the Dark Side, maybe she will!") - makes absolutely no sense.

The patchwork on his character in the PT is slapdash, and no matter what does not jive with the characterization established in the first two films and the first two acts of RotJ. There is zero mythic resonance to Anakin's story, while there is tons to Luke's. Yet Luke's story is abandoned, and the resonance is cut away from it. Sadly there was potential for Anakin's story to have mythic resonance and dovetail with Luke's. The slave boy rescued by Jedi could easily have been seduced by power - something he was raised completely without, while charming everyone around him, collecting trophies - including the beautiful Queen he fell in love with as a child. Had he hidden his lust for power from Padme until RotS, and when she finds out, she flees from him, driving him to a bloodlust, born as much out of his hatred at losing control over her as any love he might have felt for her - well, there you're telling a good ancient story. Out of this hideous union and the father with the fatal flaw, a true pair of heroes are born in Luke and Leia - that's good mythic stuff right there. But throughout the PT, there is an attempt to keep Anakin sympathetic, when he should have been anything but. The audience would have reveled in his evil, and still had an out because you know it's all about the slave boy who had no power lashing out at the universe through his natural talents. That's simple, staightforward, perfectly fine mythology - and it actually fits with the original story Lucas began to tell.

And Rama, I have no problem acknowledging Lucas' technical contributions to the field of cinema, nor do I think anyone else does. I've never heard anyone say anything but how important he's been to the field of FX and sound tech.

 

[The Borg Queen]

Obi-Wan (wailing): "You were the chosen one! You were supposed to bring balance to the force! LEAVE THE JEDI ALONE! LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE!"

Every time I hear him wailing about "bringing balance to the force" I also get an overwhelming urge to break Obi-Wan's nose with a hardback dictionary...

 

[zenophite]

^ I'm not sure how directly Lucas was influenced by Campbell and his mythic researches in the original but certainly over the years much has been made of this realtionship. In the original the story of Luke seemed to suggest more than state the mythic elements of the story. The reluctant hero, wise old hermit archetypes and so forth did not slap you in the face but werre instantly recognizable.

In the prequels though it seems almost as though Lucas had a laundry list of mythic elements to get it - virgin birth, prophecy fulfilling messiah figure, judas. I'm not sure if it's just my perception but they just didn't seem especially relevant. looking at the story the prophecy and virgin birth angle really were not integral to the story being told.

 

[Kegek]

It's already hard to buy his redemption in RotJ, because it comes completely out of the blue. Up until "It's too late for me, son", Vader has been shown to be motivated by only a few simple things - lust for power "You have no idea the power of the Dark Side", respect for the religion of the Force "I find your lack of faith disturbing" (which also feeds into his idea of the Force as a road to power), and his need to prove himself to his old master "I must face him, alone". He is set up as a character who believes in the philosophy of the Force, but the flip side of the coin from the philosophy put forth by Ben and Yoda, and he wants to prove to Obi-Wan that he is right about the Force and Obi-Wan is wrong. For him to suddenly show up motivated by love of family - the same family he maimed because Luke would not bow to him, the same family he shortly thereafter threatens ("Sister? If you will not turn to the Dark Side, maybe she will!") - makes absolutely no sense.

He doesn't per se threaten Luke's sister, not any more than he threatened Luke himself. That is, he threatens to corrupt her, not kill her. I'd argue that the first sign of Vader's paternal instinct occurs, rather bizarrely; back in ESB; when he offers to rule the galaxy together with his son after killing the Emperor. What this and his final choice in ROTJ indicate is that he does value his son more than the Emperor. The exchange in ESB is probably what Luke grounds his belief on Vader still posessing some humanity; however twisted.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

It's already hard to buy his redemption in RotJ, because it comes completely out of the blue. Up until "It's too late for me, son", Vader has been shown to be motivated by only a few simple things - lust for power "You have no idea the power of the Dark Side", respect for the religion of the Force "I find your lack of faith disturbing" (which also feeds into his idea of the Force as a road to power), and his need to prove himself to his old master "I must face him, alone". He is set up as a character who believes in the philosophy of the Force, but the flip side of the coin from the philosophy put forth by Ben and Yoda, and he wants to prove to Obi-Wan that he is right about the Force and Obi-Wan is wrong. For him to suddenly show up motivated by love of family - the same family he maimed because Luke would not bow to him, the same family he shortly thereafter threatens ("Sister? If you will not turn to the Dark Side, maybe she will!") - makes absolutely no sense.

He doesn't per se threaten Luke's sister, not any more than he threatened Luke himself. That is, he threatens to corrupt her, not kill her. I'd argue that the first sign of Vader's paternal instinct occurs, rather bizarrely; back in ESB; when he offers to rule the galaxy together with his son after killing the Emperor. What this and his final choice in ROTJ indicate is that he does value his son more than the Emperor. The exchange in ESB is probably what Luke grounds his belief on Vader still posessing some humanity; however twisted.

I disagree that his offer to Luke has anything to do with parental love. "You can destroy the Emperor - he has forseen it." Luke is more powerful than the Emperor, and Vader is simply trying to ally himself to the victor, to use Luke to get more power for himself. Which is all exactly in line with what had been set up about Vader up to that point - he is elemental power for power's sake. Nothing at the end of ESB indicates any love for Luke.

 

[Carlito]

If only two of the Star Wars movies are good, how come Carlito likes all six of them?

 

[DarKush]

I like ROTS. It's my favorite prequel film and it's my third favorite SW film overall. That being said, it's not without flaws, many of which have already been highlighted.

But I will mention pacing/time management as a very big one. I think Lucas did a poor job of prioritizing in the last film. The opening was way too long and there was something detached about the space action, though it did look beautiful. Also, the R2D2 bit was a waste, General Grevious was a waste throughout the entire film. I wish those scenes could've been used to help set up the final act, and to restore the cut scene(s) with Padme, Mon Mothma, etc. as the possible foundation of the Rebel Alliance.

Of course there was also the sketchy characterization. Padme dying of a broken heart didn't make sense to me at all. I thought that was very dumb and disrespectful of the strong leader GL had created in TPM. Then again, Padme's embrace of Anakin in AOTC after he admitted slaughtering the Sandpeople seemed out of character as well, or nonsensical as well.

However, TPM is the one prequel film that I think was almost a total waste. I think GL could've done a better job showing Anakin's fall over three movies if he had handled TPM better. He didn't, so he had to do a lot of rushing in AOTC and particularly ROTS.

One of my other problems with all of the prequels was GL's insistence on making Anakin a hero, or a tragic hero. I think Obi Wan should've been the hero of the prequels and Anakin an anti-hero from the start. I think that would've made things flow a little less awkwardly regarding Anakin's turn to the dark side.

 

[indranee]

I've only seen ROTS twice (and I'm pretty sure that's going to be my lifetime total, too). The second time it was better because I knew it was basically just a lot of pretty nonsense till the end. Vader's creation was a great moment, even if that was ruined as well (we all know how).

Case-in-point: Padme's death. She needed to die so she'd be out of the picture for ANH, but there wasn't anything in the story up to that point that really motivated it. So she just...dies, for no reason. Because she has to. Oh, and the spits out the names "Luke" and "Leia," apropos of nothing, because the twins need names, after all.

Padme's death should have been suicide. There's just no other way to pull it off plausibly. She squirts out the twins and then, realizing Anakin will psychically find her and the kiddies no matter what if she remains alive, drags herself to the nearest convenient airlock and exist sans spacesuit. We could have had a lovely tragic image of Frozen Padme floating in space (don't worry, NASA says people don't really blow up in space, so she can still have a pretty funeral) and it's plausible that things could be arranged so that Anakin thinks she killed herself before the babies were born. Pad the corpse for the funeral, maybe. Bonus points if the twins were born prematurely.

But with all the medical tech we have to assume the Star Wars society has available, death in childbirth is just wildly implausible, even if it had been a whole lot more convincing (violent and bloody) than what we saw. A realistic death in childbirth is probably not something your average Star Wars fan wants to see.

Anakin should not have been motivated by loving wifey too much. That's too whiny and pathetic of a motive to synch up with someone who becomes the Incarnation of Evil. There's only one good motive that can lead someone to Vader-hood, and that's Lust for Power. A clever script could have convinced us that Anakin had deluded himself he was after something else - protecting his loved ones - but still made crystal clear that he was a hypocrite and it was power he loved above all.

As for the kiddies' names, it would have been more ironic and tragic if Padme hadn't named them after all. Why couldn't Obi-Wan and Bail Organa decide on the names themselves? That would make sense but also be interestingly unexpected.

ITA about the kiddie's names but I wholeheartedly disagree about Anakin's motive. the whole point Lucas was trying to make in Vader's creation was the pathos and tragedy behind a good man giving in to the darkness inside himself through self-fulfilling prophecy. lust for power is in now way as powerful a dramatic irony as that.

 

[indranee]

Why wouldn't she have the will to live?

Did you watch the movie??

She went from thinking she had a peaceful future with Anakin to finding out the whole Republic--something which she served for and believed in--was taken over in a coup! That her love which they both had fought for against the odds of distance, tradition, and protocols had led Anakin to killing in her name. Not just on a personal scale of people they new but also on a mass scale. Then in the end he fights against his closest former friend and supposedly DIES. All in the span of a day or two. For some people that would mean a really bad day..

RAMA

I agree with this but IMO Lucas should have shown more of a negative reaction on Padme's part when Anakin massacred a whole village full of women and children once his mother died. that would have led to Padme's realization better and made more sense of her "giving up" despite having the babies to look toward.

I am watching the whole series again on Spike and so far I like ROTS best in the PT. I am looking forward to AOTC tomorrow night but IMO AOTC had the worst dialogue of the three.

 

[ancient]

I just don't buy Padme's motive for killing herself. Yeah, it was a bitch, but no one else decided to roll over and die. She had kids and friends to help her fight back. She even tells Obi-wan that "there's still good in him." which indicates:

1. She still believes he can be redeemed.

2. She somehow knows he survived or Obi-Wan never told her he (seemingly) killed him.

After fighting a seemingly hopeless battle to save her planet in Episode 1 are we supposed to believe that she is willing to just give up and die because Anikin turned evil? It's not like she didn't see the dark side in him (He wiped out the sand village), so how much of a shock could it have been?

Imo, she has the wrong reaction entirely, especially given her characterization up until then: imo she should've been pissed, not all weepy. That would've been a more natural reaction. Obi-Wan sure was.

Her death was another 'Lucas Plot Point' on the Lucus checklist of plot to be stuffed between the battles. It's just another symptom of Lucas treating the Effects as the main point and using a plot basically as filler between explosions.

 

[broberfett]

Clearly the guy playing Anakin could be better, but I enjoy Obi-wan's performance. The opening space battle is amazing. I enjoyed watching Samual L. "Mother Fucker" Jackson fight the emperor and the emperor's whole "good, good! Henceforth you shall be called Darth Vader..." thing. We got wookies instead of Ewoks. No Jar Jar binks. I am just so glad the Ewoks didn't defeat the Jedi.

 

[indranee]

I am actually getting used to Hayden C.'s performance and quite like it in ROTS. I think he was horribly wooden in AOTC but I think that was due more to the bad dialogue and the bad romance.