Kasidy Yates did nothing illegal

[kkt]

Not sure how the non-Starfleet civilians could be treasonous.

Again, treason is an offense citizens commit against their country. Civilians can be guilty of it just as people in the military can be.

"Queens Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard were executed for treason for adultery against Henry VIII" -Wikipedia "Treason". Leaving aside the question of whether they were actually guilty of adultery, they certainly were not members of the armed forces.

During the American Revolution, a slave in Virginia named Billy helped the British and was convicted of treason. He was not part of the American military. (He was later pardoned by then-governor of Virginia Thomas Jefferson, as having none of the benefits of Virginia citizenship he could not be expected to defend Virginia. (also Wikipedia under "Treason")

 

[Farscape One]

Again, treason is an offense citizens commit against their country. Civilians can be guilty of it just as people in the military can be.

"Queens Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard were executed for treason for adultery against Henry VIII" -Wikipedia "Treason". Leaving aside the question of whether they were actually guilty of adultery, they certainly were not members of the armed forces.

During the American Revolution, a slave in Virginia named Billy helped the British and was convicted of treason. He was not part of the American military. (He was later pardoned by then-governor of Virginia Thomas Jefferson, as having none of the benefits of Virginia citizenship he could not be expected to defend Virginia. (also Wikipedia under "Treason")

And if the Maquis members were no longer Federation citizens, how can they be treasonous to the Federation? (At the very least, the Dorvan V people renounced their citizenship status. It's quite possible, and likely, that other former Federation worlds in the DMZ followed suit.)

I do think the Maquis should have been hunted down because they had proven to be a threat to Federation security, whether any were citizens or not.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

And if the Maquis members were no longer Federation citizens, how can they be treasonous to the Federation? (At the very least, the Dorvan V people renounced their citizenship status. It's quite possible, and likely, that other former Federation worlds in the DMZ followed suit.)

How are they not Federation citizens? Because they say so?

It sounds like a Sovereign Citizen racket.

 

[Farscape One]

How are they not Federation citizens? Because they say so?

It sounds like a Sovereign Citizen racket.

In "Journey's End", Picard made it clear to Anthwara that giving up the status would cut them off from any help from the Federation if they asked for it. There must be some legal maneuvering that allows this in the 24th century, especially since people are on other planets vs. just countries in one world. Might have been other Starfleet ships assigned to move other colonies in the DMZ and they asked for the same thing.


Though the comparison to Sovereign Citizens is an interesting one... those people are idiots. So were the Maquis.

 

[kkt]

And if the Maquis members were no longer Federation citizens, how can they be treasonous to the Federation? (At the very least, the Dorvan V people renounced their citizenship status. It's quite possible, and likely, that other former Federation worlds in the DMZ followed suit.)

I do think the Maquis should have been hunted down because they had proven to be a threat to Federation security, whether any were citizens or not.

It's not clear whether the Maquis were still Federation citizens. Picard said the colonists remaining in Cardassian-controlled space would renounce their Federation citizenship, but Admiral Nechayev said they were still Federation citizens in DS9 "The Maquis, part 2". I think Nechayev was probably right, She was describing the situation as it was when she spoke, not what would happen in the future if the colonists remained where they were. Perhaps the Federation changed their mind. Perhaps a formal renunciation of citizenship would be necessary. It makes more sense if they were still Federation citizens - if they weren't, the Federation could just tell the Cardassians to deal with the Maquis however they want and Starfleet wouldn't lift a finger.

 

[Farscape One]

It's not clear whether the Maquis were still Federation citizens. Picard said the colonists remaining in Cardassian-controlled space would renounce their Federation citizenship, but Admiral Nechayev said they were still Federation citizens in DS9 "The Maquis, part 2". I think Nechayev was probably right, She was describing the situation as it was when she spoke, not what would happen in the future if the colonists remained where they were. Perhaps the Federation changed their mind. Perhaps a formal renunciation of citizenship would be necessary. It makes more sense if they were still Federation citizens - if they weren't, the Federation could just tell the Cardassians to deal with the Maquis however they want and Starfleet wouldn't lift a finger.

Very possible.

Unfortunately, not much time passed before a bunch of Starfleet officers turn traitor and be ome Maquis. Having treasonous Starfleet people is going to have them hunt the Maquis down.

In any event, citizens or not, the Maquis did plenty to warrant Starfleet's wrath.

 

[Captrek]

I'm right because what I said was a hypothetical. I said IF the Maquis never bothered the Federation,, the UFP would be powerless to do anything against them. That's obviously not what happened and Eddigton and the greater Maquis were huge fools for ever trying to attack or steal from the Federation at all. If they never did, the UFP would have to leave them entirely alone.

We really don’t get enough information about the treaty and the legal situation to draw that conclusion. Even though the territory on which they live was ceded to Cardassia, it is said that they are still Federation citizens. What obligations or powers the treaty may or may not give the Federation to police them aren’t clear.

Yes, it is some kind of medical agent which is obviously why the head doctor is in charge of it. But that doesn't mean it's the kind of garden-variety "medical supply" that Kasidy was delivering at all. That would have been entirely separate issue. Bio gel is a "controlled substance" that possession of itself can be considered a crime.

The only thing that’s established in the episode about the cargo is that it was medical supplies. Whether the medical supplies were garden-variety or biomemetic gel or something else isn’t specified.

That's not at all what Kasidy was delivering or what the Maquis was looking for. They wanted stuff to fix them up once they got shot.

We don’t know what she was delivering except that they were medical supplies.

It’s a deliberately ambiguous show. You can either embrace the ambiguity or make assumptions and treat them as fact.

On another note, conducting a search under the guise of a bullshit “safety inspection” is corruption. I would not accept it from our government IRL and don’t condone Sisko doing it.

 

[Crewman6]

We really don’t get enough information about the treaty and the legal situation to draw that conclusion. Even though the territory on which they live was ceded to Cardassia, it is said that they are still Federation citizens. What obligations or powers the treaty may or may not give the Federation to police them aren’t clear.

No, actually, they're not. By remaining in the colonies now under Cardassian control, they are literally abandoning their legal status as Fed citizens and becoming, I dunno, Cardassian subjects or something.

From "Journey's End":

PICARD
Anthwara... I want to make
absolutely sure you understand the
implications of this agreement.
By giving up your status as
Federation citizens... any future
request you or your people make
for assistance from Starfleet will
go unanswered. You will be on
your own... and under Cardassian
jurisdiction.

That said, the UFP later did assign Commander Calvin Hudson to help the colonists adjust to their new reality, so the UFP didn't completely ignore them.

On another note, conducting a search under the guise of a bullshit “safety inspection” is corruption. I would not accept it from our government IRL and don’t condone Sisko doing it.

You're not wrong about that!

 

[Farscape One]

Regarsing the 'safety inspection'...

How else were they going to find the evidence and not tip off Yates and her crew? Just ask them for smuggling evidence?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

No, actually, they're not. By remaining in the colonies now under Cardassian control, they are literally abandoning their legal status as Fed citizens and becoming, I dunno, Cardassian subjects or something.

From "Journey's End":

PICARD
Anthwara... I want to make
absolutely sure you understand the
implications of this agreement.
By giving up your status as
Federation citizens... any future
request you or your people make
for assistance from Starfleet will
go unanswered. You will be on
your own... and under Cardassian
jurisdiction.

That said, the UFP later did assign Commander Calvin Hudson to help the colonists adjust to their new reality, so the UFP didn't completely ignore them.

You're not wrong about that!

What happened on Dorvan V stayed on Dorvan V : there is no indication that anything that happened, up to and including the agreement with it's colonists was not unique

 

[Guy Gardener]

No, actually, they're not. By remaining in the colonies now under Cardassian control, they are literally abandoning their legal status as Fed citizens and becoming, I dunno, Cardassian subjects or something.

From "Journey's End":

PICARD
Anthwara... I want to make
absolutely sure you understand the
implications of this agreement.
By giving up your status as
Federation citizens... any future
request you or your people make
for assistance from Starfleet will
go unanswered. You will be on
your own... and under Cardassian
jurisdiction.

That said, the UFP later did assign Commander Calvin Hudson to help the colonists adjust to their new reality, so the UFP didn't completely ignore them.

You're not wrong about that!

Imagine if in 1868, Russia Sent one colonel to Alaska to bed check the liberty of a million peasants who were left behind after the point of sale?

 

[kkt]

No, actually, they're not. By remaining in the colonies now under Cardassian control, they are literally abandoning their legal status as Fed citizens and becoming, I dunno, Cardassian subjects or something.

From "Journey's End":

PICARD
Anthwara... I want to make
absolutely sure you understand the
implications of this agreement.
By giving up your status as
Federation citizens... any future
request you or your people make
for assistance from Starfleet will
go unanswered. You will be on
your own... and under Cardassian
jurisdiction.

That said, the UFP later did assign Commander Calvin Hudson to help the colonists adjust to their new reality, so the UFP didn't completely ignore them.

You're not wrong about that!

You have quotes about what PIcard thinks might happen in the future.

I have quotes about what has happened:

NECHEYEV: You do that. And Commander, I want you to find the Maquis. Talk to them. Remind them that they're citizens of the Federation.

- DS9, The Maquis, Part 2

They can't both be true, so I believe the officer who is discussing events that have happened instead of what might happen.

 

[fireproof78]

don’t know what she was delivering except that they were medical supplies

We "know" it was organic, likely medical supplies. Regardless, aid to a known criminal organization is a crime so Yates did something illegal.

 

[UssGlenn]

The cargo is odd. On the second trip, where she gets caught, Kasidy says they were important medical supplies. Her cover story the whole time is medical supplies to the Tholians, which apparently was completely made up. Do Tholians and Humanoids have any medical supplies in common? It's implied they were indeed hiding some cargo, as Kasidy asks her crewmember if there were any problems during the inspection. Seems it would have been easier to just have regular medical supplies and a fake delivery to a humanoid ship. Then there's no need to hide any cargo.

 

[urrutiap]

So after listening to the Delta Flyers episode for "For the Cause", an episode I quite liked but hadn't watched in years, it occurs to me that Kasidy Yates did literally nothing illegal.

All she did was deliver medical supplies. How is it remotely against the law to bring medical supplies to anyone, even criminals? It isn't!

It's technically against the US Patriot Act (which didn't exist at the time the episode was written and is a vague and deliberately obtuse law that has been roundly criticized as being unconstitutional) so there's no way such a similar law would exist in the UFP.

The show wanted to have Kasidy working for the Maquis in a "safe" way - aka not bringing them actual weapons. Which is fair. But it made it so that she isn't really guilty of any wrongdoing whatsoever.

In this instance, the standard "six month" sentence the show likes to dole out actually felt overly harsh. She clearly needed a better lawyer.

typical Star trek universe logic where things are screwy. especially when Earth or the Federation tries to get away from xenophobia/racism, they still hate on Romulans and whatever else that isnt Earth human

 

[Crewman6]

You have quotes about what PIcard thinks might happen in the future.

I have quotes about what has happened:


- DS9, The Maquis, Part 2

They can't both be true, so I believe the officer who is discussing events that have happened instead of what might happen.

Star Trek be inconsistent?? NOOOOO! It can't be....it just can't be.

Also, Picard wasn't discussing some random hypothetical, it was a very specific situation. It wasn't speculation, it was a fact. It wasn't just "I dunno, maybe...."

 

[Crewman6]

typical Star trek universe logic where things are screwy.

Yes, Star Trek is routinely wildly inconsistent. It's a sprawling franchise with a million tiny details. It's written by people, who, last time I checked, are fallible.

 

[Crewman6]

What happened on Dorvan V stayed on Dorvan V : there is no indication that anything that happened, up to and including the agreement with it's colonists was not unique

You're right. It wasn't "unique." It was what happened to all the colonies in the DMZ. It was explicitly the producers gradually laying the groundwork for the Maquis for Voyager.

It was very clearly meant to be the explicit backstory for the origin of the Maquis, not a one-off situation.

 

[Ragitsu]

Have you given any thought to writing up an "off the record" scenario depicting Yates' Federation advocate's argument in her favor?

Yes, Star Trek is routinely wildly inconsistent. It's a sprawling franchise with a million tiny details. It's written by people, who, last time I checked, are fallible.

If Star Trek could infinitely fund writer royalties and/or accommodate the increased pay of extras with many lines/recurring actors, it would be a very different franchise.

 

[Tosk]

Also, Picard wasn't discussing some random hypothetical, it was a very specific situation. It wasn't speculation, it was a fact. It wasn't just "I dunno, maybe...."

Or Picard was simply trying to drive home the severity of the decision. Or he was mistaken.
Or he was correct but the Federation changed their minds and arranged a deal so that Federation citizens remained so. Picard's words were right at the beginning of the situation, before all the wrinkles could be ironed out.

Allow me to quote Picard himself in Preemptive Strike...

"To all Maquis ships. Call off your attack or we will be forced to engage you. You are Federation citizens. Your actions are in violation of our treaty with the Cardassians. Call off your attack."