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Is it time to put Star Trek to rest?

Lynx is overstating the case a bit, but genre fiction definitely has shifted to "grittiness" since the turn of the century, and doubly so since the dual combo of nuBSG and Game of Thrones, both of which seemed to be taken as blueprints for how to write "mature" SFF. It's not universal, but you'd definitely have a harder time getting most 90s SFF shows commissioned today, because they lack "prestige" unless they're seen to deconstruct the genre in some way (which always translates to including lots of cheap references to real-world suffering, taking out all the fun or fantastical elements that made people love these genres in the first place, and sometimes just outright sneering at past works).

It's starting to go into reverse now, though - I've noticed the shift back to fun/optimism happening in videogames, which themselves were largely insulated from the initial wave of "let's make everything DARKER" in the late 90s, but now might act as a marker for where television and films are going to go.

You can measure the change over the last 8 years by imagining if Discovery's first season was released today - Disco is far from the worst example of the era, but it is a useful benchmark. In 2017 it fit perfectly into ongoing "darker and edgier" prestige TV trends, but today parts of it almost read as a parody of that era, to the point where there's a real argument to be made that the show works best nowadays as a comedy.
 
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Lynx is overstating the case a bit, but genre fiction definitely has shifted to "grittiness" since the turn of the century, and doubly so since the dual combo of nuBSG and Game of Thrones, both of which seemed to be taken as blueprints for how to write "mature" SFF
Sure, but it's not a new phenomenon to history.

Star Wars was regarded as a dumb kid's film because of its tone and approach in the 70s were cynicism ran high with the Cold and Vietnam War.
 
TV and audience expectations have changed. Sometimes it is simply better to move on. I feel you, I miss the old days. I wish Trek was something that was more interesting to me in its current form, but it isn't.

The past is awesome, it is also the past. Don't miss the future yearning for something that simply can't be replicated.

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Move on? To what?

There's nothing to move on to.

Dude, TOS and BSG did that. Doom and gloom is not new to this century or decade. Here's a letter from 1973 from an author discussing these same issues. It's not new:

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What i know, the 70's weren't so funny either. Many people think it was like a hangover compared to the more happy 60's.

It became better in the 80's and 90's.

Lynx is overstating the case a bit, but genre fiction definitely has shifted to "grittiness" since the turn of the century, and doubly so since the dual combo of nuBSG and Game of Thrones, both of which seemed to be taken as blueprints for how to write "mature" SFF. It's not universal, but you'd definitely have a harder time getting most 90s SFF shows commissioned today, because they lack "prestige" unless they're seen to deconstruct the genre in some way (which always translates to including lots of cheap references to real-world suffering, taking out all the fun or fantastical elements that made people love these genres in the first place, and sometimes just outright sneering at past works).

It's starting to go into reverse now, though - I've noticed the shift back to fun/optimism happening in videogames, which themselves were largely insulated from the initial wave of "let's make everything DARKER" in the late 90s, but now might act as a marker for where television and films are going to go.

You can measure the change over the last 8 years by imagining if Discovery's first season was released today - Disco is far from the worst example of the era, but it is a useful benchmark. In 2017 it fit perfectly into ongoing "darker and edgier" prestige TV trends, but today parts of it almost read as a parody of that era, to the point where there's a real argument to be made that the show works best nowadays as a comedy.
I don't know if I'm overstating.
Maybe, but I write about what I see.

Game Of Thrones is an example of what happened. Instead of optimism and also humor, we got sword-waving bearded gnomes in series from the worst ages in human history, full with gore blood and torture scenes.

And what we see today is a result of that.

DSC and NuTrek just went in the same direction, PIC too.

DSC a comedy? I would call it a "dark comedy".


Sure, but it's not a new phenomenon to history.

Star Wars was regarded as a dumb kid's film because of its tone and approach in the 70s were cynicism ran high with the Cold and Vietnam War.
As I wrote before, the 70's were obviously not as funny as the 60's. It was more like a hangover.
But the music was better that what we have today.
 
What i know, the 70's weren't so funny either. Many people think it was like a hangover compared to the more happy 60's.

It became better in the 80's and 90's.
It cycles, as does media.

This is a genuinely sad comment. :(
Indeed, yes. Because, well, I've always found something to move on to. Though Trek is not foundational to me as it is to others here. It was not my first sci-fi love, as it were.
 
Game Of Thrones is an example of what happened. Instead of optimism and also humor, we got sword-waving bearded gnomes in series from the worst ages in human history, full with gore blood and torture scenes.

And what we see today is a result of that.
I'm with you, I hate it too, especially when hacky fantasy writers with no imaginations opt for "low-fantasy medieval" settings, and their definition of "realism" just seems to mean constant uses of slavery and violence against women as cheap worldbuilding. I grew up with TTRPGs and videogames like Hexen and they're the kind of surreal, dreamlike, heroic fantasy I miss.

I'm assuming you don't play videogames, but the tide is slowly, partially turning there. It'll seep through to other media in a couple years, stick with it.

Sure, but it's not a new phenomenon to history.
Of course, but I think it's hard to deny that we're in a very low-mood phase of the cultural cycle right now - or, at least, that we have been since 9/11 and we're starting to inch out of it.
 
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Perhaps it's just me, but it seems like there has been a bit of a critique of the dark-n'-gritty deconstructions of characters, shows, etc over the past few decades with a move toward "reconstruction" of the original, brighter, nostalgic versions. The new Superman movie would be an example. Snyder's tortured, serious Supes snapping Zod's neck is replaced with Gunn's flawed but positive, somewhat corny one who rescues a squirrel mid-fight.
 
Yeah, it's definitely turning around now. The new Superman is a good call. I first noticed it with the Magnum PI reboot in 2018 - I'm not sure how popular or successful it was, but it was pleasingly self-knowingly silly and emotionally earnest and felt like a full-on throwback to 80s/90s television, to the point where it was hard to believe it even got greenlit in the late 2010s television landscape.

More recently we've had stuff like Baldur's Gate 3, SNW (which feels to me like it still has one foot in the Discovery era but is mostly leaning toward reconstruction rather than deconstruction), a lot of OSR RPG modules. It feels like the dam is about to burst but might take just a few more big commercial successes for studio execs to go "oh, okay, the mood has changed".
 
course, but I think it's hard to deny that we're in a very low-mood phase of the cultural cycle right now - or, at least, that we have been since 9/11 and we're starting to inch out of it.
I'm not denying it; I lived and watch it, from societal and psychological aspects. What I am reaffirming is the cyclical nature of it and that this is hardly the worst period of human history.
 
I'm not denying it; I lived and watch it, from societal and psychological aspects. What I am reaffirming is the cyclical nature of it and that this is hardly the worst period of human history.
There is actual an article recently published about how today is better than the 90s.

Anyway, I feel like the current genre that's working on the whee today is horror. Think Sinners and Weapons. We got through science fiction mostly when the Expanse finished up. There is the new Alien show on HULU, but I really think science fiction is being paused. We do have some modern day westerns, but that genre feels like it going to be rested soon. And it's mostly streaming with the top one having been Yellowstone. However, we do have a Little House on the Prairie remake happening and the show Tracker is still on the air.

Not sure when science fiction will come back around again.
 
This is a genuinely sad comment. :(
Yes. But that's the way it is.

It cycles, as does media.


Indeed, yes. Because, well, I've always found something to move on to. Though Trek is not foundational to me as it is to others here. It was not my first sci-fi love, as it were.
The sad thing is that what I did have to move on to after quitting VOY and then abandoned ENT are no longer there.

OK, I have a hockey team to follow but that's it.
Music is gone and most of the TV entertainment too and the literature is also declining so I stick to biographies and such.

I'm with you, I hate it too, especially when hacky fantasy writers with no imaginations opt for "low-fantasy medieval" settings, and their definition of "realism" just seems to mean constant uses of slavery and violence against women as cheap worldbuilding. I grew up with TTRPGs and videogames like Hexen and they're the kind of surreal, dreamlike, heroic fantasy I miss.

I'm assuming you don't play videogames, but the tide is slowly, partially turning there. It'll seep through to other media in a couple years, stick with it.


Of course, but I think it's hard to deny that we're in a very low-mood phase of the cultural cycle right now - or, at least, that we have been since 9/11 and we're starting to inch out of it.
You're right about 9/11. It was like everything took a turn to the worse then.
Or to quote Roger Glover, bass player in the band Deep Purple who wrote at the bands web site after the tragic 9/11 events:
"We were living in paradise. We didn't know it then, but we do now."

So far I haven't seen much of any inching out of the doom-and-gloom but I live in hopeless Europe so.....

As for video games, I have some older sports games on my computer.

Yeah, it's definitely turning around now. The new Superman is a good call. I first noticed it with the Magnum PI reboot in 2018 - I'm not sure how popular or successful it was, but it was pleasingly self-knowingly silly and emotionally earnest and felt like a full-on throwback to 80s/90s television, to the point where it was hard to believe it even got greenlit in the late 2010s television landscape.

More recently we've had stuff like Baldur's Gate 3, SNW (which feels to me like it still has one foot in the Discovery era but is mostly leaning toward reconstruction rather than deconstruction), a lot of OSR RPG modules. It feels like the dam is about to burst but might take just a few more big commercial successes for studio execs to go "oh, okay, the mood has changed".
As I wrote above, so far I haven't seen anything. But let us hope for the best.

As for the Magnum PI reboot, that one was one of the many series I quit watching very quick. I couldn't stand the bad actors, no reseblance at all to the old series.

I'm not denying it; I lived and watch it, from societal and psychological aspects. What I am reaffirming is the cyclical nature of it and that this is hardly the worst period of human history.
No it isn't the worst. But definitely the most boring.

There is actual an article recently published about how today is better than the 90s.

Anyway, I feel like the current genre that's working on the whee today is horror. Think Sinners and Weapons. We got through science fiction mostly when the Expanse finished up. There is the new Alien show on HULU, but I really think science fiction is being paused. We do have some modern day westerns, but that genre feels like it going to be rested soon. And it's mostly streaming with the top one having been Yellowstone. However, we do have a Little House on the Prairie remake happening and the show Tracker is still on the air.

Not sure when science fiction will come back around again.
Today better than the 90's? Are you kidding.
Constant WWIII speculations and climate hysteria in media.
And definitely not when it comes to the entertainment area in which Star Trek exists.

As for westerns, I would really like to see some good western now.
I actually like Yellowstone, OK, it was a bit dark and gloomy here and there but I liked most of the characters and they were fighting for a good cause. I could identify with them because I was involved in a similar fight some years ago which unfortunately was lost. I do wish i ahd had some of Duttons people to back me up then.

Fortunately I have The Macahans and some older western series to watch on DVD.

As for horror, the current horror series or movies have too much of 2020's scenarios. Too much torture and gore.

For those convinced of the end of the world o doubt this will help but I agree and this article articulated it well.


Yes, daily headlines will occur over the bad things but that isn't the rest of the story. There is more to be optimistic about even with current challenges.
I wish i could agree with that.
 
Today better than the 90's? Are you kidding.
Constant WWIII speculations and climate hysteria in media.
I heard about it in the 90s too.

This is literally nothing new.

No it isn't the worst. But definitely the most boring.
If boring is the worst description then I will take boring. Boring is not dystopian, doom and gloom, or apocalyptic.

Boring just means I go and find more that I enjoy. Art, history, creativity, design, Legos, models, writing, building, farming, growing, and working.

By all means, come to my house and try to be bored with me. My life is not boring :beer:
 
I heard about it in the 90s too.

This is literally nothing new.


If boring is the worst description then I will take boring. Boring is not dystopian, doom and gloom, or apocalyptic.

Boring just means I go and find more that I enjoy. Art, history, creativity, design, Legos, models, writing, building, farming, growing, and working.

By all means, come to my house and try to be bored with me. My life is not boring :beer:
But boring can cause a dystopian society.

I struggle constantly with trying to find things that I enjoy, like some of the things you mention. But the choices are fewer mnow than it was in 2001.

But you can visit me as well. I'm a great entertainer who can tell lot of stories, then we watch DS9 and listen to Iron Maiden before going to a hockey game! :beer:
 
But boring can cause a dystopian society.
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I struggle constantly with trying to find things that I enjoy, like some of the things you mention. But the choices are fewer mnow than it was in 2001.
The choices are fewer? Dude, I don't know about you but I have far greater access to human knowledge than even in graduate school and able to do things I never thought possible in my 20s, much less my 40s.

But you can visit me as well. I'm a great entertainer who can tell lot of stories, then we watch DS9 and listen to Iron Maiden before going to a hockey game! :beer:
Can we just go to the hockey game? I don't really like Iron Maiden nor care to watch Garak on DS9, and I know he is a favorite character of yours :)
 
I don't want Star Trek to rest anytime soon. There are plenty of stories to be told and potential series that could blossom.
 
TNG didn't really care about lining up with TOS, nor about reusing its ideas

The writers were preoccupied with answering the question, "How do we fill our order of 26 episodes?"

What i know, the 70's weren't so funny either. Many people think it was like a hangover compared to the more happy 60's.

There is good and bad in every era (The 60s had hippies, the Summer of Love, the Watts Riots, and the Manson Family murders all within the same decade! :eek: )

There was violence even in the 60s. The violence in The Wild Bunch (1969) and Bonnie and Clyde (1967) was shocking for its day.
 
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Man, there are so many choices out there for entertainment, there's literally times I'm frozen in my choices because there are TOO many. Bored is not something in my vocabulary.

Very excited about the LEGO Back to the Future DeLorean I'm getting today. :)
 
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